DavidTree
Well-known member
Hall Lyndsay and pre-trib are nothing but religious propaganda for making money.
Anyone who says that Christ will leave behind His elect/saints/church is a LIAR.
What is The Rapture?
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Anyone who says that Christ will leave behind His elect/saints/church is a LIAR.
DavidTree
Well-known member
#1 - There are no scriptures that declare more then one Second Coming.
ALL Scripture from Genesis to Revelation ONLY declare TWO Comings of the LORD Jesus Christ.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Isn't that the point of the pre-tribulation rapture? That's a church is out of here before the tribulation. That the church is not appointed unto Wrath? 1 Thessalonians 5:9
DavidTree
Well-known member
ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUE = We are not appointed to God's Wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
Revelation 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The Wrath of the Lamb/God is only upon those who worship the Beast, receive it's Mark and those who practice sin.
When Christ Returns, HE Returns to:
a.) Resurrect the Dead in Him = Gospel , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15
b.) Rapture the remaining living saints = Matt ch24 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 1 Cor ch15 and MORE
c.) Save those Jews preserved for Him = Zech ch14 , Matt 23:37-39 , Romans ch11
d.) Pour out His Wrath/Judgment upon the Beast and all who have rebelled = 2 Thess ch2 , Gospel , Revelation
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Yes, because God has been waiting for the moment when He can dump out the fullness of His wrath on His children, as He always intended. Save them, promise them eternal life, and then WHAM!!! Take this.
Ah, so you are lost at what death means. Death, for the sinner, means separation from God, and...well toasty hell. I guess I can agree with you that Christians are still destined for hell.
DavidTree
Well-known member
The point of pre-trib rapture is to make money and make a name for oneself on this earth.
pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God
pre-trib rapture directly goes against the words of Christ, the OT Prophets and the Apostles
The Rapture is 100% TRUTH
Obadiah
Well-known member
I assume your referral to making money would be by people that promote the pre-tribulation view in books they write. There are different views of the Rapture as I'm sure we are all well aware of. The different views of the Rapture consist of the pre-tribulation Rapture, post-tribulation Rapture, and amillennial Rapture. Different theologians have different views on eschatology; however, I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture from what I studied and my personal Bible knowledge and research.
I like this! It stirs me to the core to have the Lord promise: “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the world” (Revelation 3:10).
The Lord has a special plan that will keep the church (all true believers) from the worldwide tribulation which is to come!
If you are pre-Tribulational in our beliefs, and we should clearly see in this promise that the church will not go through the Tribulation. How can the clarity of this promise be explained any other way?
DavidTree
Well-known member
God never made a promise to keep us from Tribulation.
God NEVER said: "I will pre-trib rapture my Church."
pre-trib rapture is a Big Lie from the Serpent that the churches have swallowed hook, line and stinker.
The Lord promised to "KEEP" the Philadelphia church from the hour of trial which will come upon the whole earth.
The Lord NEVER said He would pre-trib rapture the Philadelphia church.
Please read John ch17 and you will see how the Lord KEEPS us.
2 Peter 2:4-9
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—
the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations/trials and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
Notice that Lot lived under tribulation and was in the midst of Sodom & Gommorah as many of us are today.
Just BEFORE God's Wrath was to be poured out, was Lot rescued.
This is not pre-trib rapture but it is Post-trib rapture that occurs BEFORE God's Wrath.
When Christ Returns for His Church, He will also bring the Wrath of God.
First He Rescues His own
then He brings Wrath upon the ungodly
Same with Noah who live during the worse Tribulation the world had ever seen.
So EXCEEDINGLY Great was the Tribulation in Noah's day that ONLY 8 Souls survived.
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DavidTree
Well-known member
Obadiah says: "I like this! It stirs me to the core to have the Lord promise: “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the world” (Revelation 3:10)."
Amen - i Believe in that promise as well
After-all, there will be Saints on earth waiting for His Coming = Luke 21:34-36
“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of Man.”
SteveB
Well-known member
I.e., you've decided to not actually explain what or why.
Ok.
That's all I need.
According to Daniel 9, it's te final week of the 70 weeks defined. God owes Israel one more week.
According to Jeremiah 30, it's the time of Jacob's Trouble.
A period of testing for Israel. Not the church.
According to Zechariah 13:8-9, 2/3 of Israel gets cut off.
The tribulation period is about purifying Israel, and judging a Christ rejecting world.
The church is not involved.
Revelation 2-3 letters mention 2 church's state in the period of trouble.
Thyatira, and Philadelphia.
Philadelphia was promised to be removed from the hour of tribulation coming on the world.
In Luke 21:34-36, Jesus warns us to not get bogged down in earthly, sensual, raucous living. We're further warned, encouraged to pray always, to be accounted worthy to escape what's coming, as it will come as a snare to all who dwell on the surface of the world, and to stand before the Son of Man.
The timing of the tribulation period is important too.
According to Daniel 9, the 7 year period of time starts the moment the peace treaty giving Israel the right to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem is signed.
The first 3-1/2 years/1260 days will be a period of peace and prosperity beyond anything experienced in the history of the world. In Daniel 8, and 11 it's described as craft, deceit, prosperity...
1260 days later, the antichrist will stand in the temple's Holy of Holies, declaring himself as God.
It's here where the real nasty things start happening. 1260 days later, Jesus returns, and sets foot on the Mt of Olives. Zechariah 14.
The point here is that the day of the middle, and the end of the tribulation is known.
As Jesus said in Matthew 24, no man knows the day or hour...
So, for this reason, the Rapture/harpadzo cannot be at the end of the tribulation or even in the middle, aka, before the wrath.
Once the tribulation period starts, the key dates are known.
We see in the Revelation 2-3 letters that at least 2 of the churches are expressly told they will either be kept on earth because of their sin, or removed because of their faithfulness to Jesus.
The unknowability of the day/hour, and the promise to the church to escape the world to come...
It has to occur before the tribulation period.
Unless of course Jesus, and the apostles lied.
We're explicitly told in 1 Thessalonians 5:9
1Th 5:9 WEB For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Your inability to answer the what and why of the tribulation raises serious problem.
The tribulation period is about purifying Israel. It's about judging a Christ rejecting world and giving people one last chance to escape the consequences of their sin.
SteveB
Well-known member
Really?
Because I read otherwise.
1Th 5:9 WEB For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
First he rescues his own and then he brings justice on the ungodly...
Something I'm noticing in your descriptions...
They're completely devoid of old testament passages.
DavidTree
Well-known member
TRUTH = Jeremiah 30, it's the time of Jacob's Trouble.
Non Scriptural statement(Falsehood) #1 - "A period of testing for Israel. Not the church."
TRUTH =
The Tribulation period is about what started in the Garden of Eden and will only be fulfilled upon the Second Coming of Christ.
The Jewish people AND God's People/Church will be on earth during this period just as Noah and Lot were.
BOTH the 1/3 Jews whom the LORD preserves and His Church whom the same LORD preserves will be PURIFIED by the Tribulation.
1 Peter 4:17 -
For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
God NEVER promised the Philadelphia church will be removed from the earth during the tribulation.
TRUTH - They were promised to be kept from the hour of trial, which does not include removal from the earth.
ALL 7 churches were told to endure and wait for His Coming = ALL 7
EXACTLY = Post-Trib Coming of the Lord = Pray that you may escape thru remaining FAITHFUL unto His Coming = STAND, LIFT UP YOUR HEADS
The LORD Jesus only Proclaimed/Prophesied of a Post-Trib Return = Matt ch24
The OT Prophets only prophesied of a Post-Trib 2nd Coming of the Lord.
The Apostles only wrote of a Post-Trib Coming of the LORD.
The LORD Jesus Christ NEVER spoke of a 7 year Tribulation period.
The Apostles NEVER wrote of a 7 year Tribulation period.
The Prophet Daniel said 70 Weeks are determined = READ that again = we have been living in the 70th Week since Christ Came.
i have to go now = Peace and Blessing upon you my Brother = we are in the SAME FAMILY of GOD = the Body of Christ
NOTE: There is not one prophecy or declaration of pre-trib rapture in the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Post #88 contains OT passages that only conclude with Post-Trib Rapture.
There does not exist in the OT a single pre-trib prophecy or declaration.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Tribulation is not the Wrath of God = John 16:33 , Matthew ch24 , 1 Thessalonians , Acts and MORE
Satan's wrath is not God's Wrath
Once you understand this, you will begin to see straight = "make straight the paths of the Lord"
SteveB
Well-known member
Ah, this is where your confusion is.
You're conflating the tribulation period with the tribulations we as followers of Jesus experience....
Two completely different things.
The Tribulations of Jesus followers is because the prince of this world is still in power, and is opposing (Ephesians 6:12) the truth throughout the world, along with people who are enemies of the Truth, and who love the darkness (John 3:18-20, 8:43-45).
There is a 7 year period of human civilization which is the last period of human government. It's described in the passages I referenced above, in my previous post.
Jesus described it as a period of time unlike any other in history... past, present or future.
A time of great suffering. A time so bad that unless God had directly intervened, humanity would destroy itself.
Mat 24:21-22 WEB 21 for then there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be. 22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.
What Christians endure as tribulation has absolutely nothing to do with that particular period of time.
Otherwise, Jesus never would have warned us--
Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
This passage, and others are explicitly stating that we can actually avoid that period of human history.
I.e., the harpadzo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
If however, you actually WANT to be on earth during this period of history...
Just tell God.
For myself and my family and friends, we're continuing to learn and we're continuing to "be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
DavidTree
Well-known member
"Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened."
Believe the words of the Lord = there is no such thing as pre-trib rapture
What Christians endure as tribulation has EVERYTHING to do with that particular period of time.
This is EXACTLY why Jesus warned us--
Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.
This passage, and others are explicitly stating that we will NOT avoid that period of human history.
The "harpadzo" will not precede the Resurrection - which only occurs at His Second Coming.
READ this over and over again until it fills your heart = 1 Thess 4:15-16
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,
will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
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civic
Well-known member
The context is the Jews not the gentile . The time of Jacob’s troubles is about the Jews / Israel not the gentiles and the church. The great tribulation and return of Christ at His 2nd Coming is about all the nations that are at war against Israel. That’s when upon His return they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and will recognize Christ as their promised Messiah. And the 144k and the 2 witnesses are Jews. It’s all Jewish during that time and has nothing to do with the church. The church is not mentioned after chapter 3 in revelation once the tribulation begins. Then it is mentioned again in Rev 22:16 in a final warning.
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
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DavidTree
Well-known member
"context context context" - the cry of theologians who cannot see from the past that which is alive
Based on your view of 'context', you cannot be saved for the 'context' of the Gospel is written by Jews and only for Jews.
You have a 'context' theologian on here named jeery1five who will explain this to you = in detail.
But let's look at context in it's rightful place from: compellingtruth.com
The main reason it is important to study the Bible in context is in order to obtain a correct understanding of the passage. Misunderstanding a portion of the Bible can lead to misapplying it in our lives as well as teaching something wrong to others. These are quite the opposite of God's desire for our lives, which includes knowing His Word accurately, applying it in our own lives, and teaching it to others, following the example of Ezra, "For Ezra had set his heart to study the Law of the LORD, and to do it and to teach his statutes and rules in Israel" (Ezra 7:10).
Another concern with taking the Bible out of context is the temptation to make the Bible say what we want rather than what it originally meant. Those who have taken this misguided approach have used Scripture to "prove" a wide variety of practices as "biblical." However, a practice is only biblical if it is based on an accurate understanding of Scripture that includes studying the context surrounding a passage.
Pre-trib rapture VIOLATES 'context' in everyone of it's attempts as it masquerades as 'context'.
#1 - Violation of pre-trib rapture by it's proponents = "the Bible was only speaking to Jews and the Church will not be here"
The LORD rebukes your "context" - Matt ch24 Revelation chapter 22
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.
I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come.
Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
civic
Well-known member
No there are 2 peoples of God- Romans 9-11 make that clear. Israel is not the church.
It's awesome to see people passionate about their beliefs. Not to mention sharing them with each other in a respectful Manner. My hat off to you guys. Keep up the good work.
