What is The Rapture?

[TomL]

Only in the premillenial sense

 

[jeremiah1five]

And what do you do with

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (NIV) — 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Are you ready to use your brain? Let's reason this out and I'm sure we'll see the answer. The question is: will YOU accept it.

Here's a passage also speaking of the Lord's coming:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev. 19:11–16.

and


Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,
And thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
And the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and ethe women ravished;
And half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
And the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,
As when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
Which is before Jerusalem on the east, And the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
And there shall be a very great valley;
And half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
And half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:1–4.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says:

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Just a simple question:
Revelations shows the Lord coming on a white horse with the armies of heaven about to do battle.

Zechariah shows the Lord's feet landing/touching the Mount of Olives and then engages in battle.

1 Thessalonians says believers will meet the Lord "in the air" and in the air will be with the Lord forever.

The Lord never touches down and fights against the Gentile nations the Father had gathered against Israel. And another thing, Scripture is clear in many places that says the Lord as King of the Jews rules the nations with a rod of iron from Jerusalem. But now that can't happen because this rapture-interpretation says the Lord will be "in the air forever."

Do you see the contradiction and the problem with this rapture?
Then the circumstances of this rapture. It's supposed to be secret. Yet, i 1 Thessalonians 4 where these passages are mis-interpreted, there's great fanfare, trumpets, and shouts of an archangel to let people know He's arrived. This isn't a rapture, it's His actual "in like manner" second coming.

So, using your brain what say ye?

 

[TomL]

Are you ready to use your brain? Let's reason this out and I'm sure we'll see the answer. The question is: will YOU accept it.

Here's a passage also speaking of the Lord's coming:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev. 19:11–16.

and


Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,
And thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
And the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and ethe women ravished;
And half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
And the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,
As when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
Which is before Jerusalem on the east, And the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
And there shall be a very great valley;
And half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
And half of it toward the south.
Zech. 14:1–4.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says:

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Just a simple question:
Revelations shows the Lord coming on a white horse with the armies of heaven about to do battle.

Zechariah shows the Lord's feet landing/touching the Mount of Olives and then engages in battle.

1 Thessalonians says believers will meet the Lord "in the air" and in the air will be with the Lord forever.

The Lord never touches down and fights against the Gentile nations the Father had gathered against Israel. And another thing, Scripture is clear in many places that says the Lord as King of the Jews rules the nations with a rod of iron from Jerusalem. But now that can't happen because this rapture-interpretation says the Lord will be "in the air forever."

Do you see the contradiction and the problem with this rapture?
Then the circumstances of this rapture. It's supposed to be secret. Yet, i 1 Thessalonians 4 where these passages are mis-interpreted, there's great fanfare, trumpets, and shouts of an archangel to let people know He's arrived. This isn't a rapture, it's His actual "in like manner" second coming.

So, using your brain what say ye?

1Thes says we will be caught up to meet the lord in the air. I never stated a word about touching down, fighting gentile nations etc or about a secret rapture for that matter. You are reacting against Darby's Pretribulation rapture which I never affirmed nor do I believe

 

[jeremiah1five]

1Thes says we will be caught up to meet the lord in the air. I never stated a word about touching down, fighting gentile nations etc or about a secret rapture for that matter. You are reacting against Darby's Pretribulation rapture which I never affirmed nor do I believe

I see evidence you may not be in a biblical church.
Are you born-again or do you just attend a church?
We're not discussing what YOU may have said. I'm showing you a contradiction between rapture and its mechanisms of how it's supposed to "go down" and Scripture which refutes rapture belief. Scripture and the understanding of it must "jive" perfectly with other Scripture or the belief must be changed to bring it into compliance with other Scriptures that oppose it.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4 says some things that people believe speaks of rapture or "taking up" and that the Lord never actually comes back to earth but stays in the air FOREVER. It says He never touches the ground in order to fight against God's and Israel's enemies.
Zechariah says the Lord's feet touch down on the Mount of Olives. Both can't be true.
So, if Revelation and Zechariah - especially Zechariah both speak of the Lord's coming and that is to fight and win and sit on the throne of David IN JERUSALEM, and this requires Him actually landing on the surface of the earth, and your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that says Christ NEVER comes back to earth which will make it impossible for Him to sit on His throne.
Scripture cannot contradict Scripture and it does not. What does contradict Scripture is this rapture nonsense because staying in the air FOREVER is nonsense when other places in Scripture has Him on planet earth, not in the air FOREVER.
So, I ask you...are you born again?

 

[armylngst]

Darby was wrong.
And there is no rapture in the bible.
That is just Gentile propaganda.

You really need to take the time to study the early church fathers. They believed in a rapture, a gathering, or some other protection of the church from the wrath of God (not simple tribulation) that comes in the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. (Hippolytus is one of the earlier fathers to talk about the 70th week as not having happened yet. He is also the one who dated Jesus birth as 5500 years after the creation. There is a lot of interesting things going on in eschatology in the early church.) Darby was not the first.

 

[armylngst]

I see evidence you may not be in a biblical church.
Are you born-again or do you just attend a church?
We're not discussing what YOU may have said. I'm showing you a contradiction between rapture and its mechanisms of how it's supposed to "go down" and Scripture which refutes rapture belief. Scripture and the understanding of it must "jive" perfectly with other Scripture or the belief must be changed to bring it into compliance with other Scriptures that oppose it.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4 says some things that people believe speaks of rapture or "taking up" and that the Lord never actually comes back to earth but stays in the air FOREVER. It says He never touches the ground in order to fight against God's and Israel's enemies.
Zechariah says the Lord's feet touch down on the Mount of Olives. Both can't be true.
So, if Revelation and Zechariah - especially Zechariah both speak of the Lord's coming and that is to fight and win and sit on the throne of David IN JERUSALEM, and this requires Him actually landing on the surface of the earth, and your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that says Christ NEVER comes back to earth which will make it impossible for Him to sit on His throne.
Scripture cannot contradict Scripture and it does not. What does contradict Scripture is this rapture nonsense because staying in the air FOREVER is nonsense when other places in Scripture has Him on planet earth, not in the air FOREVER.
So, I ask you...are you born again?

Jesus actual second coming is in Revelation 19, when He comes down to defeat the beast, and the armies of the kings of the Earth.

 

[TomL]

I see evidence you may not be in a biblical church.
Are you born-again or do you just attend a church?
We're not discussing what YOU may have said. I'm showing you a contradiction between rapture and its mechanisms of how it's supposed to "go down" and Scripture which refutes rapture belief. Scripture and the understanding of it must "jive" perfectly with other Scripture or the belief must be changed to bring it into compliance with other Scriptures that oppose it.

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4 says some things that people believe speaks of rapture or "taking up" and that the Lord never actually comes back to earth but stays in the air FOREVER. It says He never touches the ground in order to fight against God's and Israel's enemies.
Zechariah says the Lord's feet touch down on the Mount of Olives. Both can't be true.
So, if Revelation and Zechariah - especially Zechariah both speak of the Lord's coming and that is to fight and win and sit on the throne of David IN JERUSALEM, and this requires Him actually landing on the surface of the earth, and your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that says Christ NEVER comes back to earth which will make it impossible for Him to sit on His throne.
Scripture cannot contradict Scripture and it does not. What does contradict Scripture is this rapture nonsense because staying in the air FOREVER is nonsense when other places in Scripture has Him on planet earth, not in the air FOREVER.
So, I ask you...are you born again?

This is silly. You cannot judge a person on eschatology or upon what 1Th 4:17 states

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NIV) — 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear there is a catching up

it was described as a rapio in the latin vulgate from where we get the word rapture

I made no comments at all whether the lord touches down on the earth in commenting on that

yes, I am born again

Are you? After all, you deny the catching up scripture speaks of

However if you want to talk of Christ's reign

1 Corinthians 15:20–28 (NIV) — 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

it appears to end at his coming when death the last enemy is destroyed

But it is extremely foolhardy to judge a person's salvation based upon eschatology, of which there has never been a single-unified view in all history

Salvation is in Christ and one's trust in him, not how they interpret eschatology

 

[jeremiah1five]

You really need to take the time to study the early church fathers. They believed in a rapture, a gathering, or some other protection of the church from the wrath of God (not simple tribulation) that comes in the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. (Hippolytus is one of the earlier fathers to talk about the 70th week as not having happened yet. He is also the one who dated Jesus birth as 5500 years after the creation. There is a lot of interesting things going on in eschatology in the early church.) Darby was not the first.

The Gentile Church is not going to be protected. They are going through the Times of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel - even against them from what I read in Scripture.

The early Church era of the Jews beginning on the day of the Feast of Harvests (Pentecost) ended with the destruction of their Temple by the Romans in A.D. 70, and then God began bringing in hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant idol-worshiping Gentiles as the "ism" of Judaism ended. Without a Temple the first Jewish Christians began to center their religion around their Feasts and that continued throughout the centuries up to this day. Gentile believers will undergo the same judgment from God. It doesn't matter to me what other men thought with regard to the Scriptures, for me if it isn't chapter and verse it's chatter and worse.

The end of the Times of the Gentiles will come with the destruction of Gentile nations, whether through war or cataclysmic events from space. And the last I saw is that Gentile Christians populate these nations so they will endure God's judgment and punishment. It is arrogant to think and believe Gentile Christians will escape God's judgment and punishment through a rapture (escape) when covenant Israel, who is God's Bride and Church and apple of His eye, endured the destruction of their nation and worship centers (Temple/synagogues) as punishment for their sin as prophesied in Scripture by both Jesus and the prophets. In other words, those God loves He chastises, and tribulation has a great side-effect. It also serves to purify God's people.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus actual second coming is in Revelation 19, when He comes down to defeat the beast, and the armies of the kings of the Earth.

There are several sources in Scripture for His coming. Zechariah is one of them. There are others.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is silly. You cannot judge a person on eschatology or upon what 1Th 4:17 states

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NIV) — 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear there is a catching up

it was described as a rapio in the latin vulgate from where we get the word rapture

I made no comments at all whether the lord touches down on the earth in commenting on that

yes, I am born again

Are you? After all, you deny the catching up scripture speaks of

However if you want to talk of Christ's reign

1 Corinthians 15:20–28 (NIV) — 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

it appears to end at his coming when death the last enemy is destroyed

But it is extremely foolhardy to judge a person's salvation based upon eschatology, of which there has never been a single-unified view in all history

Salvation is in Christ and one's trust in him, not how they interpret eschatology

I'm not judging a person. I'm interpreting Scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept. If I hold to an understanding of a passage of Scripture and I come across a passage that contradicts my holding I must look deeper and reconcile both passages and not choose one over the other because the one supports my pet theories or belief.

All the views I hold are unified.

 

[TomL]

I'm not judging a person. I'm interpreting Scripture, line upon line, precept upon precept. If I hold to an understanding of a passage of Scripture and I come across a passage that contradicts my holding I must look deeper and reconcile both passages and not choose one over the other because the one supports my pet theories or belief.

All the views I hold are unified.

But actually you were. If you ask someone if they are born again because of a eschatology position espoused, that is exactly what you are doing

You may think all your views are unified, but there is no way to verify that at this point

 

[jeremiah1five]

But actually you were. If you ask someone if they are born again because of a eschatology position espoused, that is exactly what you are doing

You may think all your views are unified, but there is no way to verify that at this point

There is nothing wrong with asking someone if they are born again and know Christ especially if they give a wrong response about the one true God. Such a question is asked of people you don't know and may meet on the street or at the marketplace all the time when a Christian interacts with a stranger and their response about God is not correct.

Now, there you go again. You say there is no way to verify my views on Scripture are unified? Another incorrect response that leads me to believe you are NOT a true born-again Christian, because ALL rightly divided Christians KNOWS the Scripture is where we go to verify and confirm what we believe about God are correct. But I will give you an opportunity to declare yourself. Be honest. Be truthful. Are you a born-again Christian and do you go to a Biblical church?

 

[SteveB]

According to my online dictionary, the word rapture means “an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion” and “being carried away by overwhelming emotion.”

this is correct.

But according to the Bible, the Rapture is the event in which all who have put their trust in Jesus Christ are suddenly caught up from the earth and taken into heaven by Him. The English word rapture is a translation of the Greek word harpazo. It occurs fourteen times in the New Testament, and it means “to carry off by force,” “to seize,” or “to carry away.”

In the Latin Bible

1Th 4:17 Vulgate deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Rapiermur is the Latin word from which we get rapture.
The Greek word is harpadzo.


1Th 4:17 OGNT ἔπειτα epeita epiyta then ἡμεῖς hēmeis iymiys we οἱ hoi iy who ζῶντες zōntes zontes to live οἱ hoi iy who περιλειπόμενοι perileipomenoi periyliypomeniy to remain ἅμα hama ama together σὺν syn siyn with αὐτοῖς autois aftiys to them ἁρπαγησόμεθα harpagēsometha arpayiysomeθa to seize ἐν en en in νεφέλαις nephelais nefeles cloud εἰς eis iys to ἀπάντησιν apantēsin apantiysiyn meeting τοῦ tou tu the Κυρίου Kyriou kiyriyu lord εἰς eis iys toward ἀέρα aera aera air· καὶ kai ke and οὕτως houtōs utos thus πάντοτε pantote pantote always σὺν syn siyn with Κυρίῳ Kyriō kiyriyo lord ἐσόμεθα esometha esomeθa to be.

To help you get your bearings concerning the Rapture, here are two key biblical texts that explain its major movements. Please read these words thoughtfully and carefully.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51–53

I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18

By putting these passages together a stunning sequence of events becomes clear. But remember that everything described in these verses take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” You know this. It will all happen in a split second. However, to help us see it more easily, we are able to discuss it here now.

The 2nd coming, Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives. Zechariah 14:4.

The Rapture/great seize and go, Jesus is in the air.

Two distinct events.

We don't know the day/hour, but we do know the times and seasons....

Jesus said,

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Our responsibility is to pray to be ready.

We don't have to go figure it out. We just pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape what's coming and to stand before the Son of Man.

 

[TomL]

There is nothing wrong with asking someone if they are born again and know Christ especially if they give a wrong response about the one true God. Such a question is asked of people you don't know and may meet on the street or at the marketplace all the time when a Christian interacts with a stranger and their response about God is not correct.

Now, there you go again. You say there is no way to verify my views on Scripture are unified? Another incorrect response that leads me to believe you are NOT a true born-again Christian, because ALL rightly divided Christians KNOWS the Scripture is where we go to verify and confirm what we believe about God are correct. But I will give you an opportunity to declare yourself. Be honest. Be truthful. Are you a born-again Christian and do you go to a Biblical church?

First you are assuming it is wrong. You have not proven that.
Second you are making eschatology a matter of salvation.
Third we do not know all your views to judge that and all we have is your claim and you are assuming you have everything right
Fourth you are still asking though I already told you I am

 

[DavidTree]

Need more Biblical accuracy on this...

The word 'rapture' does not occur anywhere in God's Word (I refer to Greek New Testament manuscripts). It indeed is... just a translation, from Latin 'rapturo' which was a Latin translation of Greek 'harpazo'. So Greek harpazo is indeed the word that is in the NT manuscripts. The early Bible translations to English translated Greek harpazo to "caught up", as it is in the 1611 KJV Bible.

There's several Bible witnesses on how that Greek harpazo (to seize) is used. Per 2 Cor.12 the one Paul spoke of was "caught up" to the "third heaven", and that is a pointer to one's 'spirit' being caught up to the heavenly dimension, much like the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 6, and Ezekiel being transported on earth to a different location, as likewise the Apostle Philip was transported to a different location on earth after he had baptized the Ethiopian. It was also used about our Lord Jesus being "caught up" per Rev.12:5 when He ascended from the Mount of Olives into Heaven with His disciples watching.

The problem with many brethren's interpretation of Apostle Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "caught up" into the "clouds" to meet Lord Jesus, is that does not truly reveal being taken to Heaven. Those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory especially assume Paul meant being taken to Heaven away from the earth to live.

Yet in the Zechariah 14 prophecy about the day of Christ's coming, on the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY of this present world, Jesus actually returns to this earth, to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from.

Thus pre-trib makes a false assumption of being raptured to Heaven, because per Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Paul revealed that the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him must FIRST BE RESURRECTED. And what day does the future RESURRECTION happen on? The last day of this present world, which is that "day of the Lord" of Zechariah 14. This points to ONLY ONE coming event by Lord Jesus to gather His faithful at the end of this world on the last day, not two like man's pre-trib rapture doctrine teaches (John 6:40).

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV


Thus the actual Bible Scriptures point to the idea of Paul's "caught up" being like what happened to Philip, caught up with being transported to a different location... upon the same earth. In the case of Christ's coming to gather us, those of us still alive are "caught up" to Jesus, and the asleep saints He brings with Him, and we all go with Him to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, per the Zechariah 14 Scripture. That is where He and His faithful elect reign from over all nations at His return.

So did our Heavenly Father and His Son test you to see if you would listen to HIM in HIS... WORD about this detail, or that you would instead listen to men's doctrines and be deceived?

@DavP says: "So did our Heavenly Father and His Son test you to see if you would listen to HIM in HIS... WORD about this detail, or that you would instead listen to men's doctrines and be deceived?"

BINGO

 

[DavidTree]

Paul does not say that they must first be resurrected. Do you believe in soul sleep or something? (Note: Soul sleep is heresy). I asked somewhere else if a Resurrection is necessary if they aren't, at this time, going to be living on Earth where they would need a physical body to live. They would need to be truly alive, so back from the dead. Also, there is evidence that some early church father's believed in a rapture, and others tried to phathom how God would keep from pouring out His wrath, destined from sinners, from being poured out on His children. One just simply said that they would be protected somehow. No mechanism was given.

However, the belief of the early church fathers, when manifested, was that any kind of rapture, again, when it comes up at all, would be half way through what modern pretrib people call the tribulation. Why? They believed that the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week would be the Great Tribulation. Not the whole seven years. So, for example, Pseudo Ephraim (4th-5th century) has the rapture prior to the last 3 1/2 years. At the beginning of the seven years, the Antichrist will make peace with Israel, and have Israel rebuild the temple. After 3 1/2 years, the Antichrist will enter the temple and declare himself to be God, and will outlaw all other religions, hence the end of sacrifice and grain offerings. That "abomination of desolation" will mark the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Jesus defeat of the beast and the armies of the kings of the earth will mark the end of the Great Tribulation, after which we end the Millennial Kingdom. After the Millennial Kingdom, Jesus will finally defeat Satan, and the last enemy, death and hades. (I Cor. 15). At this time, death has no power over believers, but has power over sinners. When Jesus is done, death will be done. Defeated. Destroyed. Well, tossed into the lake of fire.

So, Paul is speaking to the rapture, since it says that we will be gathered in the air, and so (in the air) will forever be with Him. However, the question is, will it be pretrib, and there comes some tribulation, or will it be mid trib, before the start of the Great Tribulation?

Remember in the letters to the churches, intended not just for those churches but for the entire body of Christ, He spoke of avoiding the hour of testing that is to come upon the world. This could be pointing to a rapture, though it is pointing to the church avoiding or being separated from the world when the hour of testing comes.

You said: "Paul does not say that they must first be resurrected."

Do you believe that a rapture can take place before the Resurrection?

 

[DavidTree]

this is correct.

In the Latin Bible

1Th 4:17 Vulgate deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Rapiermur is the Latin word from which we get rapture.
The Greek word is harpadzo.


1Th 4:17 OGNT ἔπειτα epeita epiyta then ἡμεῖς hēmeis iymiys we οἱ hoi iy who ζῶντες zōntes zontes to live οἱ hoi iy who περιλειπόμενοι perileipomenoi periyliypomeniy to remain ἅμα hama ama together σὺν syn siyn with αὐτοῖς autois aftiys to them ἁρπαγησόμεθα harpagēsometha arpayiysomeθa to seize ἐν en en in νεφέλαις nephelais nefeles cloud εἰς eis iys to ἀπάντησιν apantēsin apantiysiyn meeting τοῦ tou tu the Κυρίου Kyriou kiyriyu lord εἰς eis iys toward ἀέρα aera aera air· καὶ kai ke and οὕτως houtōs utos thus πάντοτε pantote pantote always σὺν syn siyn with Κυρίῳ Kyriō kiyriyo lord ἐσόμεθα esometha esomeθa to be.





The 2nd coming, Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives. Zechariah 14:4.

The Rapture/great seize and go, Jesus is in the air.

Two distinct events.

We don't know the day/hour, but we do know the times and seasons....

Jesus said,

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Our responsibility is to pray to be ready.

We don't have to go figure it out. We just pray that we will be accounted worthy to escape what's coming and to stand before the Son of Man.

There is not one scripture in the Bible that distinguishes or separates the Second Coming from the Resurrection and Rapture.

You have been listening to the false prophets of the Laodician churches.

I will give you $1,000.00 USD if you can find a single declaration from the LORD or the Apostles or the OT Prophets that declare a "pre-trib rapture".

 

[DavidTree]

And living believers will be caught up to him, that is the snatching away which is called the rapture

YEP, the SAME our LORD Jesus Christ

The rapture as Tom is using it is synonymous with the Resurrection of the saints described in gospels, Thess , Corinth and Rev which occurs at His 2nd Coming.

The Rapture, as the OT Prophets, our LORD Jesus Christ and the Apsotles is synonymous with the Second Coming and the Resurrection.

There is not one scripture in ALL of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, that declares a 'pre-trib' rapture.

$1,000.00 REWARD if you can find one specific declaration stating 'pre-trib' rapture or a rapture BEFORE the Second Coming.

 

[SteveB]

There is not one scripture in the Bible that distinguishes or separates the Second Coming from the Resurrection and Rapture.

You have been listening to the false prophets of the Laodician churches.

I will give you $1,000.00 USD if you can find a single declaration from the LORD or the Apostles or the OT Prophets that declare a "pre-trib rapture".

Do yourself a favor and don't lie to us about the million dollars.
As much as I'd like it, doing so just makes you look bad.


Zec 14:3-4 WEB 3 Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


1Th 4:17 WEB then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.


The scripture clearly says that at the second coming, Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives.

Paul states that at the harpadzo, we will meet the Lord in the air.

The question is what is the tribulation period?
Why is the tribulation taking place?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

YEP, the SAME our LORD Jesus Christ

The Rapture, as the OT Prophets, our LORD Jesus Christ and the Apsotles is synonymous with the Second Coming and the Resurrection.

There is not one scripture in ALL of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, that declares a 'pre-trib' rapture.

$1,000.00 REWARD if you can find one specific declaration stating 'pre-trib' rapture or a rapture BEFORE the Second Coming.

And none of it is of any importance anyway. It's "Eschatology" (rank speculation).

The end will come in EXACTLY the fashion that it's been planned out by God, and our lame attempts at "Defining" any of it are useless. I expect as the time grows nearer, the CHURCH (not the "theologians") will see in the Spirit how to react.