I battled for a couple of hours with 4 different members because I think this is an important topic.
Give me enough time to collect my bearings, I am exhausted @GodsGrace.
Her fixation goes beyond obsession! She seems to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.
I have already posted multiple verses multiple times but you just don't listen. For starters, go back and read posts #35 #222 and #271.
Dan....I replied to the above.We are FORCED to obey God? Really?To be forced means against someone's wishes and without them being given any choice. I serve a loving God and not a tyrant. I choose to obey God from my own free will, out of love. I am not forced against my wishes and without being given any choice to obey God. Where is the love in that?
I'm not saying that without Strongs nobody could understand words in the Bible at all. I'm just saying that understanding the original Greek may help you to get a better understanding of certain words in scripture.
Actually, I do, but English does not always convey the full meaning of Greek words. I've seen folks simply define belief as mere mental assent belief and leave out trust in the definition. I even heard someone once say that ALL belief is the same except for the lack of good works. This person could not understand a deeper belief that involves more than mere mental assent belief and also includes faith, trust, entrust one's spiritual well-being to Christ.
Believe - Greek word "Pisteuo" - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)
It's the same with faith. I've heard certain folks basically define faith as mental assent belief "infused" with works. Yet the word faith includes trust and reliance upon Christ for salvation. Greek word pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
G4102 - pistis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)
G4102 - πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from ; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel)...www.blueletterbible.org
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not works.
The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Although saving belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. *Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this (just as you are now) and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works.
The Strong's can help to understand certain Greek words that have been translated into English better, but ultimately, we need the Holy Spirit to properly understand (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).
You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.
My guess would have been that you have a lot of time. Your posts just go on and on and on and on..
Christians in the OSAS camp are typically referred to as Calvinists by those who strongly oppose OSAS.
The only thing horrendous about that teaching is if someone used it as a license to sin, which I don't.
I should be asking you that question. What I said was not silly. Can you describe the difference between the content of what is believed in James 2:19 and Acts 16:31? In both verses, the word "believe" comes from the same Greek word "pisteuo" yet we know that the demons are not saved. What are they lacking in their belief?
I previously referred you back to post #222.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24)
The Lord does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)
Jesus shall lose none of all those He has been given. (John 6:39)
Jesus' sheep hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand. (John 10:27-28)
Those He predestined, called and whom He justified these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)
Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:22)
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:5)
We believe the gospel, are sealed with the Holy Spirit/guarantee of our inheritance until the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
We are sealed unto/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)
He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
Those who are born of God are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:1)
You must not be looking very hard.
Oooops. Fell on this when giving Johann my LIKE.Her fixation goes beyond obsession! She seems to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.
Same.If we have faith in Jesus Christ and are saved then we are trusting in Him alone for salvation.
I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible with Vine's and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon.
Christians spend the rest of their lives following and obeying Christ "after" they have been saved through faith. You confuse faith with works.
Don't confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe in Christ for salvation with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow."
So? That does not change the fact that they went out from us but were not of us and if they were of us then they would have (not might have or should have) but WOULD HAVE continued with us.
None of them were of us. Never were. Never saved.
CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) Eternal IN-securists will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)
Yet being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NASB).
1 Corinthians 2:14.
I already explained what is going to be removed. It's place of light bearing and witness,
So, perseverance was good enough for you in Hebrews 3:12-14 but not in Revelation 2:3?
Falling from doing the first works. They needed to repent (change their minds) and do the first works (verse 5). Not repent and believe the gospel all over again in order to become saved all over again, as you seem to teach. Other works-salvationists teach that as well. Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus, yet in verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord. So, no loss of salvation here.
Amen! Now you are catching on. See Jude 1:5.
You continue to ignore the context. Hebrews 3:8-10 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' No loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. God delivered the Israelites out of Egypt but destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5) After being delivered out of Egypt, I'm sure that many of these Hebrews began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? That is still falling away from God. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read: For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have BELIEVED do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
Just like in Hebrews 10:26, someone who has received the "knowledge" of the truth and is among genuine believers and is still in the process of considering the truth, but then ultimately decides to draw back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul still drew back. (Hebrews 10:39) The truth was revealed to such people, yet they still drew back. That is where they drew back from. You can't draw back from the truth if you have not yet acquired the truth and had the chance to consider the truth, but that does not mean you have to fully accept the truth before you draw back.
If I decide to walk across the Brooklyn bridge and I walk right up to the bridge and am on the verge of stepping onto it, but then instead, I turn and walk away from it, does that mean I didn't turn away and depart from the bridge just because I wasn't actually on the bridge? Of course not. It's the same with these Hebrews who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul.
If we are not abiding, then we demonstrate that we do not have the Spirit. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Those branches have no spiritual and vital connection to the vine. https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/john-15.html
Never saved to begin with which explains their hardened hearts. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
You are showing me your eisegesis.
Yes, unbelief. (John 3:18) There is no middle ground.
Their belief was not consummated belief resulting in salvation. Departing from God demonstrates that the stage in the progress of their belief fell short of being firmly rooted and established resulting in salvation. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul.
You are not reading these verses in Hebrews in context.
You are about 7 hours ahead of my time here.
I accept what it states after reading scripture in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.
Roman Catholics also make that same argument yet teach false doctrines such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, indulgences, purgatory, works salvation etc.. They will even quote the church fathers to back up their false doctrine. We should not assume that those who wrote about church doctrine during the early centuries were consistent with apostolic teaching. Yes, they were closer in time to the apostles than we are but that proves nothing. There were groups that separated from the Catholic Church before the Reformation. These include the Waldensians (who were bitterly persecuted by Roman Catholics) and the Hussites. In 1181 the archbishop of Lyons excommunicated the Waldensians. Three years later, the pope declared them to be heretics. In 1215 the Fourth Lateran Council declared an anathema on Waldensian doctrine. That explains a lot! Roman Catholics will often argue that before the reformation no one taught faith alone.
To the contrary, we find:
Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).
Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).
Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).
Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."
Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."
Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed."
Augustine: "Grace is given to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."
Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin."
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
We know that the narrow way leads to life, (John 3:18) and few find it (Matthew 7:13-14). That is true even within organizations and institutions that claim to be Christian and even during the first century we know that the apostles battled people who preached false gospels (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9). Here is why I believe in eternal security of the believer and my belief is not negotiable.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24)
The Lord does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)
Jesus shall lose none of all those He has been given. (John 6:39)
Jesus' sheep hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand. (John 10:27-28)
Those He predestined, called and whom He justified these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)
Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:22)
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:5)
We believe the gospel, are sealed with the Holy Spirit/guarantee of our inheritance until the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
We are sealed unto/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)
He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)
He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)
For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)
Those who are born of God are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:1)
Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
*I have discovered that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS/eternal security/preservation of the saints which has always been a major red flag for me.
We are FORCED to obey God? Really?
I'm not saying that without Strongs nobody could understand words in the Bible at all. I'm just saying that understanding the original Greek may help you to get a better understanding of certain words in scripture.
Actually, I do, but English does not always convey the full meaning of Greek words. I've seen folks simply define belief as mere mental assent belief and leave out trust in the definition. I even heard someone once say that ALL belief is the same except for the lack of good works. This person could not understand a deeper belief that involves more than mere mental assent belief and also includes faith, trust, entrust one's spiritual well-being to Christ.
Believe - Greek word "Pisteuo" - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)
It's the same with faith. I've heard certain folks basically define faith as mental assent belief "infused" with works. Yet the word faith includes trust and reliance upon Christ for salvation. Greek word pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
G4102 - pistis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)
G4102 - πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from ; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel)...
Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not works.
The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Although saving belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. *Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this (just as you are now) and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works.
The Strong's can help to understand certain Greek words that have been translated into English better, but ultimately, we need the Holy Spirit to properly understand (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).
You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.
My guess would have been that you have a lot of time. Your posts just go on and on and on and on..
Christians in the OSAS camp are typically referred to as Calvinists by those who strongly oppose OSAS.
The only thing horrendous about that teaching is if someone used it as a license to sin, which I don't.
I should be asking you that question. What I said was not silly. Can you describe the difference between the content of what is believed in James 2:19 and Acts 16:31? In both verses, the word "believe" comes from the same Greek word "pisteuo" yet we know that the demons are not saved. What are they lacking in their belief?
I previously referred you back to post #222.
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24)
The Lord does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)
Jesus shall lose none of all those He has been given. (John 6:39)
Your verse John 10:27-28
Please, if you have time give this a read @GodsGrace.
Will do but getting lunch ready right now....
1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is 'descriptive' of genuine believers. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers.
In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)
Yet none of those verses you gave unequivocally teach that a really "saved" person can "lose their salvation." Apostates are those who move towards Christ, have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted and they may even be right of the verge of saving belief, yet they rebel and fall away instead. Such folks draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
Those who fail to abide (like Judas Iscariot) demonstrate a superficial belief that never took root. Judas did not abide (continue, remain) and it's not because he was saved and lost his salvation but because he was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) Those who abide demonstrate they truly are saved. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. Also, it would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) In contrast with those who do not produce fruit and do not continue. The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do, but all genuine believers.
Those who are born of God have become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.
You have done some carpet bombing yourself.
Then they were only a lip-service Christian for a true believer would never become an apostate.
Believers commit ACTS of sin, unbelievers remain in a STATE of sin-huge difference Sorella.
Wow. Just got here. Must be destiny! (reformed??)
See, YOU love Strong's.....
Agreed.
Well, we're not under the law but under grace.
Don't YOU believe we are to use our best efforts?
I know this Dan...They are so obsessed with the 4th commandment (keeping the sabbath day holy) that they even teach the ludicrous doctrine that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.
Agreed.
Why do you say AS I SUPPOSE, that Jesus was not teaching salvation by works?
OK Wait.
I see that Jesus didn't think we'd be DEBATING about doing good works 2 thousand years after He taught.
NOTHING can snatch us out of God's hand.
Agreed.
Well...Jesus says they were saved.
Then how do you explain John 15:6???
I agree.
Doing this now.
