GodsGrace
Active member
Read it J.
It agrees with me!
Do we need to go over it??
On to the next....
What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?
- Thread starter Hosanna
- Start date
Read it J.
It agrees with me!
Do we need to go over it??
On to the next....
GodsGrace
Active member
OK
Read the second link.
It also seems to agree with me!
Would you like to discuss this a little?
It's just a really bad time now...
maybe tonight after dinner??
I don't understand why you posted these links but then
don't agree with me....
On to the 3rd link....
GodsGrace
Active member
GodsGrace
Active member
@Johann
I looked at the 3rd link....EASTERN LITERATURE..
I agree totally with the beginning and have OFTEN STATED THIS.
This insight (i.e., that the Bible is an eastern book, not a western book) has been the most helpful to me personally as one who loves and trusts the Bible as God's Word. In trying to take the Bible seriously it became obvious that different texts reveal truth in selected, not systematic ways.
I couldn't agree more!
However, this I cannot read in total right now because it requires more attention that the other 2.
I'll go over it after dinner and report back.
I looked at the 3rd link....EASTERN LITERATURE..
I agree totally with the beginning and have OFTEN STATED THIS.
This insight (i.e., that the Bible is an eastern book, not a western book) has been the most helpful to me personally as one who loves and trusts the Bible as God's Word. In trying to take the Bible seriously it became obvious that different texts reveal truth in selected, not systematic ways.
- One inspired text cannot cancel or depreciate another inspired text!
- Truth comes in knowing all Scripture (all Scripture, not just some, is inspired, cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17).
- Be careful of quoting a single passage (proof-texting)!
I couldn't agree more!
However, this I cannot read in total right now because it requires more attention that the other 2.
I'll go over it after dinner and report back.
Johann
Well-known member
Sure-
The state of sin is an inherited condition resulting from the fall of Adam, a condition all humans are born into. It is not merely an individual act of sin but a pervasive disposition that affects every aspect of the human nature. This is reflected in both the Greek term ἁμαρτία (hamartia) and the Hebrew חטאת (ḥaṭṭāʾṯ), which emphasize a state of moral failure and alienation from God.
Believers, though capable of committing acts of sin, are no longer in a "state of sin" because of their union with Christ (Romans 6:11-14), whereas unbelievers remain in this condition until they are reconciled to God through Christ.
J.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
See again your reasoning is flawed. Your focus on the word belief as if it can stop being true. and not on what the person recieves.
It says the moment they believe, they will never perish, but live forever.
if after a person believed, they could perish, or their eternal life would stop to exist (they would die again) then the whole passage is meaningless.
You also failed to continue reading. the condemned were always in a condemned state. Someone did nto believe and lose condemnation. then fall back to condemnation. It says they are condemned already (They did not fall from condemnation to condemnation)
You also miss the first point Jesus made. the serpent moses hung on a pole. the people were dead. They had no hope. God sent them a savior in the means of a brass serpent. all they had to do is look in faith. They did nto have to keep looking. they were saved from the plague that God sent them, they could not walk in freedom knowing no snake could kill them again.
It says they will never perish. It does not say they will never perish as long as they do this, or do that, So the very passage you are tryign to argue does the very thing you requested.
Actually no it does not. OSAS teaches as John taught, that he who falls into sin has never seen or known God. he who lives a life of sin has never seen or known God.
this goes back to the perfection idea you keep wanting me to deny.
One sin makes me worthy of hell. and since we will continue to sin. even after we are saved. we will never earn the right to be righteous on our own merit. it is why we must be saved, and this new birth must be eternal. or every time we sinned we would have to do as the law said. and a sacrifice would need to be given. But as the word says, he died once..
Living in sin is different. a non believer lives in sin. They habitual sin, because they have never met God. and they have no choice.
A dog may act like a new creature. but hw will always return to his vomit.. because he is a dog.
A believe is no longer a dog. he is a new creature created in christ for good works. He can not make himself into a dog again.
No it does not say this..
it does not say we will never perish as long as we continue to believe.
Yes. He who does not obey and receive the gospel in faith is condemned already.
who overcomes the world but he who believes, it is our faith.
And it has always been on us.. Thats why he used the word already. Condemned is in the perfect tense. which means it is completed. We are born dead. and will remain condemned until we repent and believe which will save us.
the people of Israel were condemned. The poison was flowing in their blood killing them, They had until they died to repent and look to the serpent. if they did, they lived, and would not perish, if they did not. they would suffer their condemnation.
1 John, the one who denies Christ is an antichrist. And John made it clear. they were never saved (never of us)
Just because someone goes to church and claims they have been saved does not mean they are saved..
once again
A DOG IS A DOG!!!
Maybe you did not get changed?? I do not know. but we are told we are new creatures in christ. A dog can be taught a new trick, but he is still a dog. As a dog. he will ALWAYS return to his vomit.
I agree with the apostle. if I had grace in my hands, and let it go in unbelief. I will spend the rest of eternity with that on my mind, that I was that close and let it go. it will be worse for me, than for someone who ever even contemplated it but outright rejected it.. They know they have what they deserve.
No.. He said if we ask, he will give us the water and it will flow to eternal life. You do not keep drinking it..
yes we see this today, look at all the empty churches. the falling away has happened.
People did not lose salvation,. The churches lost people. because the younger generation did not stay, and the members that were there and never really recieved Christ walked away
Yes. Speaking of Jews..not speakiong of losing salvation
This living water saved.
Unlike the water she came to get. Jesus made it clear. drink this water you will need to keep drinking, you will still die.. drink the way I came to give and you will never die.
Sorry, You do not just stop believing.. If you think this, I question if you really understood what you had faith in.
You do not go from falling on your knees calling out to God to have mercy to thinking you no longer need mercy.
I was a prodigal child for 5 years. i never stopped having faith In God for my salvation or thinking I did not need saved
The blood is all that is required
The wage if sin is death, the gift of God is life.
Not sure why people make this so difficult
Take the word "need " out and replace it with the word "will"
saying you NEED to do something puts you under law.
Saying you WILL do something is a statement of fact
I gave you many.
I can;t help you can not see it
I would repent of your catholic views. that have led you astray.
I could care less about sola anything. I care about what the word of God says.
This is not a calvin or catholic issue. it is a God issue. what does God say.
Johann
Well-known member
mailmandan
Well-known member
Amen! There is a difference between intermittent stumbling and practing sin, one's lifestyle or bent of life.
1 John 1:8-10.
No remorse, no repentance, no goal or effort to stop, just bring it on. (1 John 3:7) Descriptive of children of the devil.
"Nominal" or pseudo Christians/make believers.I believe in eternal security but I don't believe in eternal presumption. We don't infallibly know the hearts of everyone but God does.
I believe in OSAS/eternal security of the believer/preservation of the saints but I don't believe in no transformation, continue to live like the devil etc.. but still saved. Genuine believers, unlike make believers are new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
We continue to agree with God when we confess but it's not about inventory confession and if we forget a sin we are toast.
Descriptive of unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 John 3:7-10)
Do you reject that man is born with a sinful nature? The T in Calvinism seems to have a more extreme view of that. Why do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?
Total depravity has God zapping man with faith and ignores God's drawing and man's free will to choose. No although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18) coming to Christ is not "exclusively" a matter of human decision.
Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted by the Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to come to Christ and we must choose to come to Him once enabled. The impulse to come to Christ comes from the Father.
Apparently, my view of the T in TULIP is not as extreme as what Calvinists teach. Yet we still cannot disregard verses such as Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:10-13; Romans 5:12 etc..
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I believe relationships mature. I've used this explanation over the years.....
Our eyes that once were blind now see but they don't understand everything they see. Our ears that now hear don't understand everything they hear.
Becoming an adult in Christ and then desiring to return to Egypt..... Is a very dangerous thing. I don't know exactly at what point that becomes being classified as a "cast away"..... but I believe it happens.
How about "if saved always saved"? I do believe there are many people who believe they've meet the requirements of being saved but are not there..... yet.
I have a problem with this statement. I don't believe Cain or Abel was born with a sin nature. I do believe at a "practical" level that this changed over time. Sins... .ADD up. Cain was given a choice and was protected by God from being killed himself. God gave Cain "space to repent".
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
That is what I thought.... just wanted to make sure.
Children are conceived into a state of innocence. That condition has changed over time and through various genetic "spoiling" of tracts. However, it is still innocence.
Children learn in the womb. Children can be tainted before they're born. However, what you're saying about a "sin nature" doesn't come from conception itself. At least not from Adam and Eve.
I'll be glad to discuss this. In fact, I enjoy it. I usually lose people rather quickly in this because all they have are traditions.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
We really need to have a conversation concerning "canonicity". The subject is one of the weakest parts of most Christians understanding. Wes Huff and these "recent" developments concerning the topic are driving me crazy...
GodsGrace
Active member
Oh...you have an excuse for everything.
Your very own understanding of scripture.
The old goats are not sheep routine.
God is not going to reply to routine...
He's going to reply to whether or not you're teaching what He would like man to know.
James 3:1 not many should become teachers...they will incur a stricter judgment.
Strong's, Strong's, Strong's.
Gosh, Gee, Wiilikers...
I hate to say this but I happen to know a theologian that reads his bible
in GREEK AND HEBREW. Yes. he speaks 7 languages and has lived in the middle east.
We've been over this stuff and, quite frankly Dan....you shouldn't NEED Strong's.
People speak of the aorist tense and they don't even know what it is.
The bible, taken as a complete thought, teaches that salvation can be lost.
Let me give you this idea....
Let's say it cannot be determined who is right...me or you.
Wouldn't it be safer to err on the side of obedience and good works?
And, I don't do carpet bombing. I give you one or two verses because it's difficult to respond to
more than that.
I went over 2 Peter in posts 306 and 313 COMPLETELY.
Am not doing it again.
If you don't believe what JESUS and PAUL have to say,,,
then you'll just continue, not only believing incorrectly,
but you're AFFECTING others that are reading along and may
be new Christians.
Just quick.....too busy today:
You stated this above:
*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.
So, are you saying that every time Paul mentions believers he MUST WRITE:
"partakers of the divine nature" or we can't know that he's speaking about believers?
You read too much into scripture...
You add what is not there.
You can't accept what is plainly written.
I'm posting it again for those reading along that never post:
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
To say nothing of
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,
Notice Dan....
Hebrews 6 actually states the words
verse 4: THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN ONCE ENLIGHTENED AND HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
and look what happens.....:
verse 6: AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY.
Now here it states that they are PARTAKERS of the Holy Spirit
and then
FALL AWAY.
Will you accept this??
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
All men are drawn by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All men resist. You included. Few abandon their own will to embrace God.
GodsGrace
Active member
What does Wes Huff say?We really need to have a conversation concerning "canonicity". The subject is one of the weakest parts of most Christians understanding. Wes Huff and these "recent" developments concerning the topic are driving me crazy...
He's knowledgeable and dependable.
mailmandan
Well-known member
That's enough carpet bombing. I already covered many of these scriptures and I already explained John 15:6 in post #161.
Now in regard to "sin willfully" in Hebrews 10:26, this carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Good. You can take his position....
He doesn't deal with it from the proper perspective. He just "repeats" the traditional narrative that comes from modern Judaism that was fueled by Jerome.
This subject is THE central issue I have with Roman Catholicism. Most people ignore the contradictions and problems that came from the work of Jerome.
Any real discussion of the subject must start with the difference between Augustine and Jerome on the subject. I haven't heard anyone have that conversation in a very long time. It has been "buried" in recent years in the narrative.
Wes is too young and inexperienced to know this topic. I takes dedicated effort and time to know. It is very similar to effort to know the Holy Trinity.... if not more.
Take a look at the Douay–Rheims Bible and the Clementine edition relative to the canon.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
This is about producing fruit. Not about being saved.
1. A non believe can not bear fruit. so this is not talking about them.
2. A believer can bear fruit. But they can also go through times when they may not bear fruit.
3. In John 2. takes away is a bad translation. the word literally means to lift up. Jesus is talking to people who understand what a vinedresser does. When a branch is on the ground, it is choked, and can not bear fruit. so they lift the branch up so that it can produce fruit.
in ever case here. It speaks of God pruning or making branches so that they bear fruit. not so that can be saved. Bearing fruit is a result of salvation. not a prerequisite.
No he did nto say this
Then you are trying to earn your salvation. by you doing something, not by God doing something to you.
If your doing them to stay saved, then you are putting yourself under law.
I do not think you understand what I am saying, WHY do you do the works..
No I will not. because they would put them under law.
Plus, I would be lying, they WILL do works. there is no must about it.
lol
Those saved WILL do good works
I am dumbfounded why you would think a person who God made into a new creature would never do any works..
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Yes, he was still a dog. which means God never made him into a new creature.
If anyone is twisting anything here it is not me
HE WAS A DOG. AND HE IS STILL A DOG.,
that means he was never changed.
Sin is poison to a child of God. I know. Everyone I know who is born again knows. its not the same.. we do not return to the life we lived before. we CAN'T! not would we ever desire to.
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
whats to understand?
God said cursed is the one who does not obey every word. through moses
Paul said the law can not save because cursed is anyone who does not obey every word
James said if we keep the whole law. yet STUMBLE (on accident0 in one part (we break one command) we are guilty
That is Gods requirement for you to earn your salvation.
the wage of sin is death. each sin you commit results in a death penalty. How many sins have you committed? That is how many death penalties you have against you.
apart from Grace, even those of us who are saved are still adding to our debt against God and deserve the death penalty. You will never be good enough to earn your spot in heaven, no matter how good you are you will never be good enough.
Thats why we are saved by grace. not of ourselves. We can not earn salvation. Hence we can not unearn salvation like you are proposing.
its not rocket science.. just open your mind and you will see
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
sadly, she is fixated on the roman catholic gospel.. and thinks even though she may admit you can never earn salvation. some how you can unearn ut.
How that makes sense is beyond me, but millions have believed it and will continue to believe it
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