What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Define "state of sin".....

he who sins has never seen or known God.

This is not commiting personal sin, it is living a life of sin, or being in a state of sin

 

[praise_yeshua]

he who sins has never seen or known God.

This is not commiting personal sin, it is living a life of sin, or being in a state of sin

Do you believe in being a "victim of circumstances"?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do you believe in being a "victim of circumstances"?

not sure what you even mean here.

are you a lost soul who never met Christ (been saved) and as a result live in sin

or are you a saved soul who is not perfect and still need to grow?

I can't judge either way. I can just know there are both of these types of people.. your either one or the other

 

[praise_yeshua]

sadly, she is fixated on the roman catholic gospel.. and thinks even though she may admit you can never earn salvation. some how you can unearn ut.

How that makes sense is beyond me, but millions have believed it and will continue to believe it

Col 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

 

[praise_yeshua]

not sure what you even mean here.

are you a lost soul who never met Christ (been saved) and as a result live in sin

or are you a saved soul who is not perfect and still need to grow?

I can't judge either way. I can just know there are both of these types of people.. your either one or the other

"A victim of circumstance is someone who is affected by events that are beyond their control"

I disagree with your insistence that there are only two "classifications" of people......

I believe faith is generational. I believe that unbelief is generational.

I believe we (as parents) have the duty to target our children for our faith. We have the ability to control our own children's future.

Do you know how much our own existence "mirrors" creation? We start our lives from the union of a mother and father. We are surrounded by "water" in the womb. We are a product of choices that are not our own........ in many ways, we are victims of circumstances.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Col 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

again what does this have to do with the conversation?

Can a non believer do this? Can a person living in sin do this?

 

[praise_yeshua]

again what does this have to do with the conversation?

Can a non believer do this? Can a person living in sin do this?

Notice the word "worthy"...... How do you define worthiness without value?

Does a nonbeliever keeping the law please God? A person can show forth "works/actions" that seemingly please God. Yet, they have not value (worthiness) without faith in them.

A person can "live in sin" there entire life and not realize what I just said is true. They pay attention to requirements without understand why or even desiring to know why.

So when you define "sin" as you do, you're creating a conundrum.

Give me someone that believes and trusts in worthiness associated with pleasing God rather than the "absence" of what men believe is sin.....

This is deeply personal and tied to a real meaningfulness of relationship to being the children of God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"A victim of circumstance is someone who is affected by events that are beyond their control"

oh I see.

so a person living in sin is affected by things beyond their control?

I disagree with your insistence that there are only two "classifications" of people......

Thats fine..

I believe faith is generational. I believe that unbelief is generational.

There has been believers and unbelievers since adam... in every generation

I believe we (as parents) have the duty to target our children for our faith. We have the ability to control our own children's future.

You can not save your child eternally. That is for them to chose to trust God or not trust God.

Do you know how much our own existence "mirrors" creation? We start our lives from the union of a mother and father. We are surrounded by "water" in the womb. We are a product of choices that are not our own........ in many ways, we are victims of circumstances.

Yet I know many lovely children of God who had parents who were evil children of Satan

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Notice the word "worthy"...... How do you define worthiness without value?

Well as far as any person and his worthiness to be right with God. there is non righteous no not one.

Does a nonbeliever keeping the law please God?

A non believer can not keep the law. why would you even say such a thing

A person can show forth "works/actions" that seemingly please God. Yet, they have not value (worthiness) without faith in them.

Can a non believer please God?

A person can "live in sin" there entire life and not realize what I just said is true. They pay attention to requirements without understand why or even desiring to know why.

a person who lives in sin continues to live in sin, they need to repent of the fact that their sin has caused alienation between them and God. only then can God even perhaps save them, as they learn to come to him in faith.

So when you define "sin" as you do, you're creating a conundrum.

No conundrum, the word sin literally means to miss the mark.

Some of us miss the mark when we decide to chose self over god in this situation or that situation.

most miss the mark in everything we do

Give me someone that believes and trusts in worthiness associated with pleasing God rather than the "absence" of what men believe is sin.....

This is deeply personal and tied to a real meaningfulness of relationship to being the children of God.

Again, I am not sure what your tryign to draw out here. We love because he first loved us.

to do anything not out of love is sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

oh I see.

so a person living in sin is affected by things beyond their control?

You're not the judge of anyone. Neither am I. I bet your view of sinfulness if different than mine. What do we do in that instance? I bet you'll insist you're right but I can assure you that I can prove you wrong.

You can not save your child eternally. That is for them to chose to trust God or not trust God.

Lets make this personal. I'll include myself in my comments and you include yourself. Until we do all of this means nothing. It is just theoretical gobbledygook.

What you said above is contrary to the Scriptures. Let me share them with you.

1Co 7:16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Yet I know many lovely children of God who had parents who were evil children of Satan

The message of the Gospel is good. It is a message of adoption.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

However, it is very clear that Paul spoke of "fathering" others through the Gospel.

1Co 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

We are saved or not because of US.... We are our "brother's keeper".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well as far as any person and his worthiness to be right with God. there is non righteous no not one.

Abel was righteous.

A non believer can not keep the law. why would you even say such a thing

Sure they can. They did..... Yet, those same people rejected Messiah.

Can a non believer please God?

That is what we are getting to...... You need to make the argument... just not assume it.

a person who lives in sin continues to live in sin, they need to repent of the fact that their sin has caused alienation between them and God. only then can God even perhaps save them, as they learn to come to him in faith.

People can have simple faith in God without understand Him enough to repent.

No conundrum, the word sin literally means to miss the mark.

Okay. How many marks have you missed? I sure have missed my share.... I keep moving toward I the goal. A righteous man "gets up".

Some of us miss the mark when we decide to chose self over god in this situation or that situation.

Whether you know this or not, there are place you're doing that right now. I am too.

most miss the mark in everything we do

Again, I am not sure what your tryign to draw out here. We love because he first loved us.

to do anything not out of love is sin.

Simple. Sin doesn't completely separate His children from Him. If it were, then God wouldn't have anything to do with us at all.

After all, do you cast away your own children when they disobey you? Such is demanded in the law. Those that curse father or mother.... let them "DIE THE DEATH".....

Yet, there is no condemnation.... WHY is that?

I've asked this many times and everyone ignores this.....We will not kill our own when they sin against us... yet we insist that God does.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're not the judge of anyone. Neither am I.

I am not the one judging my friend

I bet your view of sinfulness if different than mine. What do we do in that instance? I bet you'll insist you're right but I can assure you that I can prove you wrong.

Sin is when you do anything not out of love. not to serve others. and when you are focused on self.

Most of us probably sin every day and do not even know it. because sadly most people are focused on individual sins. and not the problem behind the sin

Lets make this personal. I'll include myself in my comments and you include yourself. Until we do all of this means nothing. It is just theoretical gobbledygook.

What you said above is contrary to the Scriptures. Let me share them with you.

1Co 7:16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.



The message of the Gospel is good. It is a message of adoption.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

However, it is very clear that Paul spoke of "fathering" others through the Gospel.

1Co 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

We are saved or not because of US.... We are our "brother's keeper".

ok you have just changed the subject.

do you want to discuss the difference between what is a personal sin or a believer who still sins.

and a person who is in sin, or living in sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

See again your reasoning is flawed. Your focus on the word belief as if it can stop being true. and not on what the person recieves.

It says the moment they believe, they will never perish, but live forever.

So the moment someone believes they will never perish.
What happens if they decide to live a life of sin?
Are they still saved?

if after a person believed, they could perish, or their eternal life would stop to exist (they would die again) then the whole passage is meaningless.

EG,,,,I don't make up theology.
Jesus and Paul state that a person could believe for a while and then fall away.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,

Matthew 24:
10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

You also failed to continue reading. the condemned were always in a condemned state. Someone did nto believe and lose condemnation. then fall back to condemnation. It says they are condemned already (They did not fall from condemnation to condemnation)

Doesn't sound like anything I posted.
How about posting the verse?

But yes...JESUS said we could be
saved
lost
saved AGAIN

Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again;
What does it mean that the son had come to life AGAIN?

It means he went back to an original state:
saved
lost
saved AGAIN

You also miss the first point Jesus made. the serpent moses hung on a pole. the people were dead. They had no hope. God sent them a savior in the means of a brass serpent. all they had to do is look in faith. They did nto have to keep looking. they were saved from the plague that God sent them, they could not walk in freedom knowing no snake could kill them again.

I didn't bring up the serpent.
The Israelites were lost and needed something to "cure" them.

It says they will never perish. It does not say they will never perish as long as they do this, or do that, So the very passage you are tryign to argue does the very thing you requested.

What verse??
John?
They will never perish IF they do as Jesus commands.

If a person returns to a life of sin....
will he still be saved?

Actually no it does not. OSAS teaches as John taught, that he who falls into sin has never seen or known God. he who lives a life of sin has never seen or known God.

Which verse states that a person that falls away was never saved?
And OSAS teaches that once a person is saved they could never lose their salvation NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, HOW THEY LIVE, ETC.
Charles Stanley taught this and he had a big church.

I posted verses about falling away....
What are they FALLING AWAY FROM??

this goes back to the perfection idea you keep wanting me to deny.

You know somebody that's perfect?
Why would I want to talk about something that is not possible?

One sin makes me worthy of hell. and since we will continue to sin. even after we are saved. we will never earn the right to be righteous on our own merit. it is why we must be saved, and this new birth must be eternal. or every time we sinned we would have to do as the law said. and a sacrifice would need to be given. But as the word says, he died once..

What?
Where did you learn this?
I never heard of it.

What I know is that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father.

Living in sin is different. a non believer lives in sin. They habitual sin, because they have never met God. and they have no choice.

AGREED !!
IF a person returns to an unsaved state, as in 2 Peter 2:19....
then he is lost.

A dog may act like a new creature. but hw will always return to his vomit.. because he is a dog.

A believe is no longer a dog. he is a new creature created in christ for good works. He can not make himself into a dog again.

Like I said EG....this is nonsense and I will not address this.
I'm sick of hearing that goats don't become sheep and all that.
I thing we're beyond that kind of reasoning.

No it does not say this..

it does not say we will never perish as long as we continue to believe.

Every verse you posted has BEIEVE in the present tense.
I'd say there's a reason for this, it's significant because Paul said it many times.
I've posted verses from Paul's writing stating that a person could fall away.
Again...fall away from what?
They had to be on the pedestal if they could fall away from it.
They had to be saved if they could fall away from it.

Yes. He who does not obey and receive the gospel in faith is condemned already.

Again...what if I'm saved but don't obey?

who overcomes the world but he who believes, it is our faith.

And it has always been on us.. Thats why he used the word already. Condemned is in the perfect tense. which means it is completed. We are born dead. and will remain condemned until we repent and believe which will save us.

Agreed.

the people of Israel were condemned. The poison was flowing in their blood killing them, They had until they died to repent and look to the serpent. if they did, they lived, and would not perish, if they did not. they would suffer their condemnation.

Right.

1 John, the one who denies Christ is an antichrist. And John made it clear. they were never saved (never of us)

What verse are you referring to ?
Please post the verses.

Is it 1 John 2:19??
If so,,,THEY WERE GNOSTICS.
Look into some history and you'll find that John was speaking of gnostics.

Just because someone goes to church and claims they have been saved does not mean they are saved..

Whoever said that?

once again

A DOG IS A DOG!!!
Maybe you did not get changed?? I do not know. but we are told we are new creatures in christ. A dog can be taught a new trick, but he is still a dog. As a dog. he will ALWAYS return to his vomit.

Could we discuss scripture please?

I agree with the apostle. if I had grace in my hands, and let it go in unbelief. I will spend the rest of eternity with that on my mind, that I was that close and let it go. it will be worse for me, than for someone who ever even contemplated it but outright rejected it.. They know they have what they deserve.

No.. He said if we ask, he will give us the water and it will flow to eternal life. You do not keep drinking it..

yes we see this today, look at all the empty churches. the falling away has happened.

People did not lose salvation,. The churches lost people. because the younger generation did not stay, and the members that were there and never really recieved Christ walked away

Yes. Speaking of Jews..not speakiong of losing salvation

This living water saved.

Unlike the water she came to get. Jesus made it clear. drink this water you will need to keep drinking, you will still die.. drink the way I came to give and you will never die.

Sorry, You do not just stop believing.. If you think this, I question if you really understood what you had faith in.

You do not go from falling on your knees calling out to God to have mercy to thinking you no longer need mercy.

I was a prodigal child for 5 years. i never stopped having faith In God for my salvation or thinking I did not need saved

The blood is all that is required

The wage if sin is death, the gift of God is life.

Not sure why people make this so difficult

Take the word "need " out and replace it with the word "will"

saying you NEED to do something puts you under law.

Saying you WILL do something is a statement of fact

I gave you many.

I can;t help you can not see it

I would repent of your catholic views. that have led you astray.

I could care less about sola anything. I care about what the word of God says.

This is not a calvin or catholic issue. it is a God issue. what does God say.

This is the word of God:
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Who do you think Jesus is referring to?
The saved or the unsaved?
Remember...the unsaved are not required to obey.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen! There is a difference between intermittent stumbling and practing sin, one's lifestyle or bent of life.

1 John 1:8-10.

No remorse, no repentance, no goal or effort to stop, just bring it on. (1 John 3:7) Descriptive of children of the devil.

"Nominal" or pseudo Christians/make believers.I believe in eternal security but I don't believe in eternal presumption. We don't infallibly know the hearts of everyone but God does.

I believe in OSAS/eternal security of the believer/preservation of the saints but I don't believe in no transformation, continue to live like the devil etc.. but still saved. Genuine believers, unlike make believers are new creations in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Agreed on everything.
It's just that you refuse to come to understand that OSAS teaches that one can sin all they want to and still be saved.
I think that if you accepted this definition, we'd pretty much agree on everything.

We continue to agree with God when we confess but it's not about inventory confession and if we forget a sin we are toast.

You're remembering your Catholic days.

Descriptive of unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 John 3:7-10)

Do you reject that man is born with a sinful nature? The T in Calvinism seems to have a more extreme view of that. Why do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?

I'm not sure I said a virgin...I most probably did not.
What I probably said is that she was PURE....
I think this because those that the Apostles taught believed it.
I tend to trust them.

Man is born with a sinful nature.
All denominations believe this.

Total depravity has God zapping man with faith and ignores God's drawing and man's free will to choose. No although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ unto salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18) coming to Christ is not "exclusively" a matter of human decision.

Right. Total Depravity, as the reformed understand it, means that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek God.
So, of course, this created the necessity for GOD to CHOOSE who will be saved and those He doesn't choose are lost forever.
It's not representative of the God of the bible who gives to man the ability, the free will, to choose to be saved.

Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted by the Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to come to Christ and we must choose to come to Him once enabled. The impulse to come to Christ comes from the Father.

Correct.
Amen.
God gives to each just enough grace to be able to come to know that He exists...
but the choice remains ours.

Apparently, my view of the T in TULIP is not as extreme as what Calvinists teach. Yet we still cannot disregard verses such as Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:10-13; Romans 5:12 etc..

That's right.
And mainline Christians do not ignore them.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe relationships mature. I've used this explanation over the years.....

Our eyes that once were blind now see but they don't understand everything they see. Our ears that now hear don't understand everything they hear.

Becoming an adult in Christ and then desiring to return to Egypt..... Is a very dangerous thing. I don't know exactly at what point that becomes being classified as a "cast away"..... but I believe it happens.

Agreed. The rate of growth varies from person to person.
The important thing is that some transformation takes place and that growth is constanct.
I don't think we ever really arrive until we are glorified.

How about "if saved always saved"? I do believe there are many people who believe they've meet the requirements of being saved but are not there..... yet.

I don't believe I agree.
I believe that a person is either saved or they're not.
No in between condition.
You said so above....
we grow at different rates.

I have a problem with this statement. I don't believe Cain or Abel was born with a sin nature. I do believe at a "practical" level that this changed over time. Sins... .ADD up. Cain was given a choice and was protected by God from being killed himself. God gave Cain "space to repent".

I think I might have already asked you this,,,,,,

A sin nature just means that we are not in right relationship with God...
we tend toward sin.

Romans 6:16 states that we are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.
If we're not born again....we're not with God.

If we're not with God....
we're with the evil one.

There's no other way PY...there's no third way.
Jesus said that we're either with Him or against Him.
Matthew 12:30
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me;

So here's the question:
If we don't have this sin nature...WHAT makes us sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

That's enough carpet bombing. I already covered many of these scriptures and I already explained John 15:6 in post #161.

Now in regard to "sin willfully" in Hebrews 10:26, this carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, habitual, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

OK Dan.
We'll take a break.
Till next time !!
(think anything will change??)

 

[GodsGrace]

Good. You can take his position....

He doesn't deal with it from the proper perspective. He just "repeats" the traditional narrative that comes from modern Judaism that was fueled by Jerome.

This subject is THE central issue I have with Roman Catholicism. Most people ignore the contradictions and problems that came from the work of Jerome.

Any real discussion of the subject must start with the difference between Augustine and Jerome on the subject. I haven't heard anyone have that conversation in a very long time. It has been "buried" in recent years in the narrative.

Wes is too young and inexperienced to know this topic. I takes dedicated effort and time to know. It is very similar to effort to know the Holy Trinity.... if not more.

Take a look at the Douay–Rheims Bible and the Clementine edition relative to the canon.

Praise....
I know a little about Jerome and a lot about Augustine.
I can see why this is not discussed...it's very specific.

What would be nice is if YOU posted some stuff on this so others could learn.
I do this at times. We can't know everything about everything.

I know that Jerome translated Romans 5:12 incorrectly.
This caused Augustine to INCORRECTLY teach a new doctrine on infant baptism which made it become
necessary to baptize babies...

There's a poster on another forum that INSISTS that Augustine had nothing to do with infant baptism....but no matter.

So what do the D-R and the Clementine edition (which I never heard of) to do with the canon??

 

[praise_yeshua]

Praise....
I know a little about Jerome and a lot about Augustine.
I can see why this is not discussed...it's very specific.

What would be nice is if YOU posted some stuff on this so others could learn.
I do this at times. We can't know everything about everything.

I know that Jerome translated Romans 5:12 incorrectly.
This caused Augustine to INCORRECTLY teach a new doctrine on infant baptism which made it become
necessary to baptize babies...

There's a poster on another forum that INSISTS that Augustine had nothing to do with infant baptism....but no matter.

So what do the D-R and the Clementine edition (which I never heard of) to do with the canon??

We can start here....

I don't believe that Augustine really followed anyone. Such was incompatible with his ego....

Don't get me wrong. We all have an ego. One thing about Augustine that I've admired over the years is that he openly talked about his failure. Most men hide them.....

Relative to DR and Clementine editions.... they show forth variant editions of the Vulgate. Jerome never actually finished the Vulgate. We also know that Jerome didn't meet his "goal" of translating only from the Hebrew manuscripts.

He couldn't. He didn't have access to them. There were no such things for many of the canonical books of the Bible during his time. If you follow Sam's Blog, you'll see that he is just starting to really get into the Greek OT. I'm interested to see where he goes with this in his journey. I know where it leads.

I would start something on the topic but I believe I'd prefer to do live streams or videos on the topic. I just don't have the bandwidth to endless write about it at the moment....

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't believe I agree.
I believe that a person is either saved or they're not.
No in between condition.
You said so above....
we grow at different rates.

I'm glad we got here......

When Paul said the words "shall be saved"...... consider..... this is a definitive statement without any context of timing. Which is why I often say

"those that seek... find". Consider the possibility what God begins, He will finish. It might take time and it does require cooperation but whether it is now or its 20 years from now, God has it covered.

This generation we're a part of is so "I want it right now"....... Whether it is now.... or it is on "our death bed"....... We will soon forget all these trials and tribulations.

I think I might have already asked you this,,,,,,

A sin nature just means that we are not in right relationship with God...
we tend toward sin.

Predisposition. Predicate. Propensity. All these have to do with the "concept" of a "sin nature". Given our circumstances NOW (mankind) it is inevitable in many ways.

There's no other way PY...there's no third way.
Jesus said that we're either with Him or against Him.
Matthew 12:30
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me;

So here's the question:
If we don't have this sin nature...WHAT makes us sin?.

It can be "BOTH". We are currently a certain way but traveling to the point we change. God is with us and gives us MORE as we progress toward Him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not the one judging my friend

Sin is when you do anything not out of love. not to serve others. and when you are focused on self.

Most of us probably sin every day and do not even know it. because sadly most people are focused on individual sins. and not the problem behind the sin

Okay.

ok you have just changed the subject.

do you want to discuss the difference between what is a personal sin or a believer who still sins.

and a person who is in sin, or living in sin?

I don't believe I did. If you sin continually without knowing it..... what doesn't that equal?

I didn't change the subject. I pointed out that we are the reason people are saved or not.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Does the inability to convert others.... classy as sin itself?