What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[GodsGrace]

So a believer has no security in Christ. The whole Christ alone is a farce with salvation/ eternal life.

There is no past, present and future aspect to salvation, redemption and eternal life ?

A believer has security IN CHRIST.
IN CHRIST.

Just as is explained in John 15.

If we are IN CHRIST we can be sure of our salvation.
Being IN CHRIST means obeying Christ.

Christ spoke of doing good works/deeds...
so if we want to obey Christ then they will be necessary.

 

[Red Baker]

Calvinism teaches the perseverance of the saints.

Some do, I do not ~ what I do teach is that each and every child of God is preserved in Jesus Christ, for time and eternity!

Jude 1:1​

“Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:”

Our life is hid with Christ in God...that's pretty safe if you ask me....about as safe as one can be.

Colossians 3:3​

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

Later...Rb

 

[Johann]

Some do, I do not ~ what I do teach is that each and every child of God is preserved in Jesus Christ, for time and eternity!

Jude 1:1​

“Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:”

Our life is hid with Christ in God...that's pretty safe if you ask me....about as safe as one can be.

Colossians 3:3​

“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

Later...Rb

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE NEED TO PERSEVERE

Need to Persevere -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

J.

 

[civic]

A believer has security IN CHRIST.
IN CHRIST.

Just as is explained in John 15.

If we are IN CHRIST we can be sure of our salvation.
Being IN CHRIST means obeying Christ.

Christ spoke of doing good works/deeds...
so if we want to obey Christ then they will be necessary.

can a born again believer become unborn again ?

another way of asking it is from Ephesians 1- is the down payment/guarentee of our future inheritance with the indwelling Holy Spirit given to believers at risk of leaving the believer and losing their inheritance that was guarenteed ?

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are FORCED to obey God? Really? To be forced means against someone's wishes and without them being given any choice. I serve a loving God and not a tyrant. I choose to obey God from my own free will, out of love. I am not forced against my wishes and without being given any choice to obey God. Where is the love in that?

Yes Dan. You are FORCED, REQUIRED to obey God IF you want to be a disciple of His.

It's very nice that you choose to obey from your own free will.
Happy to hear you're not a Calvinist.

So,,,once again...you are unable to determine what a person is saying.

Let me repeat:
IF YOU WANT TO BE A CHRISTIAN PERSON...
YOU MUST OBEY GOD.

It's not really a choice.
If you CHOOSE NOT to obey God,,,,
then you are not following Jesus or God and will be lost.

You see God is not ONLY LOVE...
God is also JUST.

God will give to everyone what they deserve:

Let's see what JESUS says about this (although it seems you don't care what Jesus says):

John 5:26-29
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
There are those words you so hate:
GOOD DEEDS.
"those who did GOOD DEEDS will be resurrection of life.

Those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Evil deeds are done by evil person...evil persons are not saved.

So....the GOOD DEEDS are done by those that are IN CHRIST...that are saved, as can be plainly understood.


2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
John 14:15
15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Hebrews 10:24
24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

I'm not saying that without Strongs nobody could understand words in the Bible at all. I'm just saying that understanding the original Greek may help you to get a better understanding of certain words in scripture.

So you were discussing the word AGAIN in Luke 15:24
The word AGAIN is also in the Greek.

So do you agree that the word AGAIN means you are returning to an original state?
Or do you STILL NOT BELIEVE what AGAIN means?

In which case,,,Strong's is of no value.

Actually, I do, but English does not always convey the full meaning of Greek words. I've seen folks simply define belief as mere mental assent belief and leave out trust in the definition. I even heard someone once say that ALL belief is the same except for the lack of good works. This person could not understand a deeper belief that involves more than mere mental assent belief and also includes faith, trust, entrust one's spiritual well-being to Christ.

Did you hear ME say this?
You're speaking to ME Dan.
My position is very clear.

Believe - Greek word "Pisteuo" - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)

It's the same with faith. I've heard certain folks basically define faith as mental assent belief "infused" with works. Yet the word faith includes trust and reliance upon Christ for salvation. Greek word pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

G4102 - pistis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

G4102 - πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from ; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel)...

www.blueletterbible.org

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not works.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Although saving belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. *Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this (just as you are now) and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works.

The Strong's can help to understand certain Greek words that have been translated into English better, but ultimately, we need the Holy Spirit to properly understand (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).

You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

I'm making it out to be very simple.
John 3:36
IF WE BELIEVE WE ARE SAVED...
IF WE DO NOT OBEY, THE WRATH OF GOD IS ON US.

Now...WHO is it that believes?
It's Christians, right?

So WHO is it that's supposed to obey?
It's Christians, right?

Again..I'll repeat:
THE UNSAVED ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
ONLY SAVED PERSONS ARE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.

JESUS said in John 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME,,,OBEY ME.

Easy.

My guess would have been that you have a lot of time. Your posts just go on and on and on and on..

Christians in the OSAS camp are typically referred to as Calvinists by those who strongly oppose OSAS.

The only thing horrendous about that teaching is if someone used it as a license to sin, which I don't.

I only discuss OSAS and Calvinism.
I DO NOT have a lot of time....
but one of these topics affect salvation and I've explained how and I'm not speaking about yours.
The other one of these topics changes the nature of God and I'll discuss these 2 topics all day long.

I should be asking you that question. What I said was not silly. Can you describe the difference between the content of what is believed in James 2:19 and Acts 16:31? In both verses, the word "believe" comes from the same Greek word "pisteuo" yet we know that the demons are not saved. What are they lacking in their belief?

No Dan.
No more explaining.
WHEN ARE YOU going to post some scripture that supports YOUR point of view???

SO FAR NOTHING.
I know it's difficult, but give it a try.

I previously referred you back to post #222.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

The Lord does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

Who ever said God forsakes His saints?

You really do NOT UNDERSTAND.

I'm saying that WE leave GOD.
GOD NEVER LEAVES US.

BUT you're going to have to prove that we are preserved forever...
which is what Calvinists believe and is a new belief system that NEVER EXISTED in the church before that.

Jesus shall lose none of all those He has been given. (John 6:39)

Jesus' sheep hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand. (John 10:27-28)

Those He predestined, called and whom He justified these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:22)

Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:5)

We believe the gospel, are sealed with the Holy Spirit/guarantee of our inheritance until the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

We are sealed unto/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)

Those who are born of God are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:1)

You must not be looking very hard.

Are the above supposed to be verses supporting your point of view?

How about posting a couple and then I'll exegete it for you.
CARPET BOMBING DOES NOT FUNCTION WELL Dan.

I did NOT do this to YOU.

2 Peter is a great support for the incorrect doctrine of OSAS.

But I'll wait on YOUR verses now.

 

[mailmandan]

I have 2 friends that are JWs.
We don't sit around discussing whether or not Jesus is God.

Yet Jesus is God, (John 1:1-3, 14) and we cannot be saved by another gospel or another Jesus. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

BUT
You're on a forum and you've made the statement that OSAS is a correct doctrine.
You can expect that there will be Christians that will not agree with you because MOST OF CHRISTIANITY
does not. That must surely count for something.

Believing OSAS or NOSAS is not the deciding factor on who will be saved. (John 3:18) You are making too big of an issue out of it as if ALL Christians in the OSAS camp will not be saved.

OSAS is a Calvinistic idea that started with the reformation...
was never believed before..
and is rejected by MOST Christians denominations.

According to Roman Catholicism. Have you personally interviewed every Christian who lived before the reformation to know it was never believed before that? I came to believe in OSAS from reading scripture and not from reading the writings of John Calvin.

So you could expect some push-back on this.

Push back on OSAS is par for the course on here. I have run across multiple people on this forum who relentlessly attack that doctrine and imply that Christians who believe it will not be saved, which is not true. The deciding factor on whether or not someone will or won't be saved is not based on whether or not they believe in OSAS but whether or not they believe in the Son. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; Acts 10:43; 1 John 5:13 etc..)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Please post a verse that states that we only need to trust in Jesus alone.

Where do we start>

John 3:
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Believe in him (faith) the result. You will never perish, and you will live forever. you are not condemned
do nnot believe, you are already in a condemned state

John 3: 36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Again, Faith = eternal life. lack of faith = wrath of God.

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

In faith ask. God will give you living water. and you again will never perish.

John 5: 24;“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Once again, Faith only, will never come to judgment, but is alive (born again)

John 6: 35And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Again, In faith. see and believe. nothing else is required. you will never hunger, never thirst, never perish, be raised and have eternal life

 

[GodsGrace]

can a born again believer become unborn again ?

Yes. A born again believer can become unborn.
By his own choice.

2 Peter 2:20-22
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A believer has security IN CHRIST.
IN CHRIST.

Then they have Eternal security, osas, or whatever you want to call it.

Otherwise,. they have security in self

Just as is explained in John 15.

If we are IN CHRIST we can be sure of our salvation.
Being IN CHRIST means obeying Christ.

No. Being in christ means being born of Him, Adopted by iom, redeemed by his blood. made alive in him. which is done by faith

Christ spoke of doing good works/deeds...
so if we want to obey Christ then they will be necessary.

No. they are not necessary, that would be putting us under law.

Those who are born of Him obey him, it is not necessary, it is a result.

We love others because he first loved us, not because we have built the capacity to love ourselves. Obedience is the result of salvation. not a prerequisite to keep your salvation. because you could never be good enough.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes. A born again believer can become unborn.
By his own choice.

2 Peter 2:20-22
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

then they have conditional life not unconditional life

You could not give birth to yourself. Your mother had to bore you. You can not unbirth yourself

A dog returns to his vomit because he was still a dog. Not because he was born again, made a new creature and turns into a dog again

 

[civic]

Yes. A born again believer can become unborn.
By his own choice.

2 Peter 2:20-22
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

the passage never says they were born again.

Here is what some actually believe that I have read lately. They would rewrite John 3:16 this way since it is exactly what they believe the verse is saying.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever (conditionally believes in Him might perish or live depending upon meeting those conditions that are added to their faith after being conditionally saved), but have conditional life a life that might be temporal and not eternal.

Remember God does not save you, give you eternal life because its up to you to remain saved and have everlasting life. Humans are the Savior, not God.

What a farce its humanism, works based salvation and contradicts all the promises that Christ made and guaranteed with Eternal Life/ Salvation for those who believe.

In Romans 6:20–23, Paul invites Christians to consider their lives before coming to Christ and since. He also compares the contrasting rewards of each way of life: “When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Before salvation, we were slaves to sin and destined for death. But through faith in Jesus Christ, we received the gift of God, which is the salvation of souls unto eternal life: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” (John 3:16–17).

The word gift (charisma in Greek) in Romans 6:23 means “a present given as a sign of good favor.” Ephesians 2:8–9 elaborates on this gift: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift of God does not depend on our behavior. It cannot be earned, like a wage. The Bible calls it a “free gift” (Romans 6:23, ESV). We don’t work for the gift of eternal life; we receive it simply because God’s good favor is poured out on us.

The gift of God is His “abundant provision of grace.” It is “not like the trespass,” which brings death through sin. “God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ” brings everlasting life (Romans 5:15–17; see also Romans 3:24; Ephesians 1:7–8). Sin pays its wages in death, and sinners get what they deserve. But God bestows a free gift, and believers in Jesus Christ receive what they don’t deserve—eternal life.

The gift of God is Jesus Christ, His Son. The apostle Paul thanks God for His “indescribable gift” in Jesus (2 Corinthians 9:15). Jesus calls Himself “the gift of God” in the form of “living water” to the woman of Samaria (John 4:10). Jesus provides this definition of eternal life: “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3). The gift is knowing the One True God through a relationship with Jesus Christ, His Son, who is Himself eternal life.

Christians receive all of Christ’s benefits because of our union with Jesus Christ. Jesus died, and therefore we have died in Him (Romans 6:3; Galatians 2:20). Christ was raised from the dead; thus, we were introduced to new life (Romans 6:4–5). He lives to God, and now we live to God (Romans 6:10–11). Jesus Christ will live forever, and we will live eternally with Him (John 17:3; 1 John 2:25).

The only grounds for receiving the gift of God is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus is the righteous channel of God’s gift of grace poured out by His blood (1 Peter 1:18–19; Revelation 1:5). If we are in Christ through faith, we receive every spiritual blessing in Him (Ephesians 1:3–14). “God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:11–13).

The gift of God is abundant spiritual life—a life with meaning, purpose, and joy—from the moment of salvation and for all eternity (John 10:10; 1 Corinthians 2:9). The old life of sin has no benefit and only leads to death. But serving God has the advantage of sanctification leading to holiness and the gift of God—eternal life in Jesus Christ.got?

hope this helps !!!

hope this helps !!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yet Jesus is God, (John 1:1-3, 14) and we cannot be saved by another gospel or another Jesus. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

Believing OSAS or NOSAS is not the deciding factor on who will be saved. (John 3:18) You are making too big of an issue out of it as if ALL Christians in the OSAS camp will not be saved.

According to Roman Catholicism. Have you personally interviewed every Christian who lived before the reformation to know it was never believed before that? I came to believe in OSAS from reading scripture and not from reading the writings of John Calvin.

Push back on OSAS is par for the course on here. I have run across multiple people on this forum who relentlessly attack that doctrine and imply that Christians who believe it will not be saved, which is not true. The deciding factor on whether or not someone will or won't be saved is not based on whether or not they believe in OSAS but whether or not they believe in the Son. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; Acts 10:43; 1 John 5:13 etc..)

I firmly believe people hate OSAS because they hate calvinism, and because of it. they have been blinded to what people really believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yet Jesus is God, (John 1:1-3, 14) and we cannot be saved by another gospel or another Jesus. (2 Corinthians 11:4)

Believing OSAS or NOSAS is not the deciding factor on who will be saved. (John 3:18) You are making too big of an issue out of it as if ALL Christians in the OSAS camp will not be saved.

No Dan.
I'm not making too much of an issue of this.
This teaching can lead some to DAMNATION.
Because YOU might be leading a good life,,,and I believe you are....
but OTHERS can come to understand that they can NEVER lose their salvation.
THIS IS NOT what the NT teaches.
It is CONTRARY to all that Jesus and Paul state...
that our lives must be transformed..
MUST BE TRANSFORMED.

If some person believes they could never be lost...
it might lead them to lead a life of sin.
1 John 3:9 states that we CANNOT live a life of sin.

Ever do a study on TRANGRESSION, SIN, INIQUITY.
Try it and then think some more on this.

Those engaged in INIQUITY WILL NOT BE SAVED.
And what YOU teach here may lead some to do just this.

According to Roman Catholicism. Have you personally interviewed every Christian who lived before the reformation to know it was never believed before that? I came to believe in OSAS from reading scripture and not from reading the writings of John Calvin.

Oh for goodness sake Dan.
Did I have to be alive and interview someone to know Washington crossed the Potomic?

Study up on some church history....
You know, church history, what came after Acts.
You'd be surprised at what you'd find out.

Did the Apostle teach anyone else?

Didn't you post some of these persons in a previous post to me?
So why are you asking this?

Did I not post several of those the Apostles taught that believed works are absolutely necessary?

THE EARLY CHURCH DID NOT BELIEVE IN OSAS.
IT NEVER EXISTED.....
In the 5th century the gnostic manichaen that became Catholic, Augustine,,touched on this but was refuted.
John Calvin brougt the idea back to life in the 1500's.

This is plain history.
Check it out.

Push back on OSAS is par for the course on here. I have run across multiple people on this forum who relentlessly attack that doctrine and imply that Christians who believe it will not be saved, which is not true. The deciding factor on whether or not someone will or won't be saved is not based on whether or not they believe in OSAS but whether or not they believe in the Son. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; Acts 10:43; 1 John 5:13 etc..)

I never said the above.
Which is why you are unable to post a statement of mine that says I do.
You've done this too...put words into my mouth that I never said and then you're unable to
post them -BECAUSE I NEVER said them.

Christians are opposed to OSAS because they understand scripture very well.
Most Christians do NOT believe in OSAS....this is a danger signal.

Waiting on your verse to prove your point.

 

[civic]

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:6
We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

What about those who practice sin ?

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery;

Galatians 5:21
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 John 3:6
No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9
Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[mailmandan]

Yes Dan. You are FORCED, REQUIRED to obey God IF you want to be a disciple of His.

It's very nice that you choose to obey from your own free will.
Happy to hear you're not a Calvinist.

So,,,once again...you are unable to determine what a person is saying.

Let me repeat:
IF YOU WANT TO BE A CHRISTIAN PERSON...
YOU MUST OBEY GOD.

It's not really a choice.
If you CHOOSE NOT to obey God,,,,
then you are not following Jesus or God and will be lost.

You see God is not ONLY LOVE...
God is also JUST.

God will give to everyone what they deserve:

Let's see what JESUS says about this (although it seems you don't care what Jesus says):

John 5:26-29
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
There are those words you so hate:
GOOD DEEDS.
"those who did GOOD DEEDS will be resurrection of life.

Those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Evil deeds are done by evil person...evil persons are not saved.

So....the GOOD DEEDS are done by those that are IN CHRIST...that are saved, as can be plainly understood.

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
John 14:15
15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Hebrews 10:24
24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

So you were discussing the word AGAIN in Luke 15:24
The word AGAIN is also in the Greek.

So do you agree that the word AGAIN means you are returning to an original state?
Or do you STILL NOT BELIEVE what AGAIN means?

In which case,,,Strong's is of no value.

Did you hear ME say this?
You're speaking to ME Dan.
My position is very clear.

I'm making it out to be very simple.
John 3:36
IF WE BELIEVE WE ARE SAVED...
IF WE DO NOT OBEY, THE WRATH OF GOD IS ON US.

Now...WHO is it that believes?
It's Christians, right?

So WHO is it that's supposed to obey?
It's Christians, right?

Again..I'll repeat:
THE UNSAVED ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
ONLY SAVED PERSONS ARE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.

JESUS said in John 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME,,,OBEY ME.

Easy.

I only discuss OSAS and Calvinism.
I DO NOT have a lot of time....
but one of these topics affect salvation and I've explained how and I'm not speaking about yours.
The other one of these topics changes the nature of God and I'll discuss these 2 topics all day long.

No Dan.
No more explaining.
WHEN ARE YOU going to post some scripture that supports YOUR point of view???

SO FAR NOTHING.
I know it's difficult, but give it a try.

Who ever said God forsakes His saints?

You really do NOT UNDERSTAND.

I'm saying that WE leave GOD.
GOD NEVER LEAVES US.

BUT you're going to have to prove that we are preserved forever...
which is what Calvinists believe and is a new belief system that NEVER EXISTED in the church before that.

Are the above supposed to be verses supporting your point of view?

How about posting a couple and then I'll exegete it for you.
CARPET BOMBING DOES NOT FUNCTION WELL Dan.

I did NOT do this to YOU.

2 Peter is a great support for the incorrect doctrine of OSAS.

But I'll wait on YOUR verses now.

This is really getting old. I am not FORCED to obey God. He has given me free will to obey Him out of love and the love of God has been poured out in my heart by the Holy Spirit who was given to me. (Romans 5:5) God is not a tyrant. I have already posted multiple scriptures that support my point of view but apparently what I post just continues to fall on deaf ears. I only have time to address 2 Peter and then I'm going to make my wife breakfast, because I love her and not because I'm FORCED to.

I believe what God said in Psalms 37:28 and Jude 1:1 but apparently, you don't. The word "preserved" (especially preserved forever) seems to mean nothing to you. I already shared my verses with you AGAIN in post #271 and I already refuted your arguments based on your misinterpretation of scripture numerous times.

Now in regard to 2 Peter, you most likely are referring to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[civic]

Yes those who deny one is saved eternally from the moment they are born again teach against Christ and the Apostles and are saved by their works/obedience. One either has eternal life which lasts forever or its misnamed and should of been called temporal life or conditional life.

To lose eternal life by definition is an oxymoron. Its like saying a person who is born can become unborn and never existed. If one cannot become unborn physically then they cannot become unborn spiritually.

So salvation is not by grace- undeserved gift from God ?

So we must do something to deserve to be saved and kept saved ?

God saves us but its up to us to keep ourselves saved ?

So both God and man are Saviors of themselves ?

God saves us by giving us His spirit but then we must keep ourselves saved or God takes away His spirit ?

Adoption is temporal ? and the downpayment of our future inheritance the indwelling Holy Spirit ( our guarantee ) as Paul puts it in Ephesians 1 is not true ?

There are way to many promises made to believers regarding eternal life but there will be a loss of rewards for many in the future from their wood, hay and stubble. A lack of good works.

1 Cor 3- If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13;their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14;If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[civic]

This is really getting old. I am not FORCED to obey God. He has given me free will to obey Him out of love and the love of God has been poured out in my heart by the Holy Spirit who was given to me. (Romans 5:5) God is not a tyrant. I have already posted multiple scriptures that support my point of view but apparently what I post just continues to fall on deaf ears. I only have time to address 2 Peter and then I'm going to make my wife breakfast, because I love her and not because I'm FORCED to.

I believe what God said in Psalms 37:28 and Jude 1:1 but apparently, you don't. The word "preserved" (especially preserved forever) seems to mean nothing to you. I already shared my verses with you AGAIN in post #271 and I already refuted your arguments based on your misinterpretation of scripture numerous times.

Now in regard to 2 Peter, you most likely are referring to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

We obey Christ because we love Him and He first loved us and we desire to please Him. If one doesn't desire to serve and obey Him then maybe He is not really their master. Works did not save us in the first place and they do not keep us saved. But genuine faith will produce good works that we should walk in them and be fruitful.

 

[Johann]

Yes. A born again believer can become unborn.
By his own choice.

2 Peter 2:20-22
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

I believe you are incorrect-again.

A born-again believer cannot become "unborn" because spiritual birth is a divine, irreversible act of God. The Bible consistently teaches that salvation is a permanent transformation rather than a temporary condition. Those who truly believe are sealed, preserved, and eternally secure in Christ.

1. Spiritual Birth Is Permanent
In John 3:3-7, Jesus describes being "born again" (γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, gennēthē anōthen) as a spiritual birth from above. Just as physical birth cannot be undone, neither can spiritual rebirth.

John 10:28-29: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." The Greek "οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται" (ou mē apolōntai) is a double negative, meaning absolute negation—they will never be lost.

1 Peter 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." The new birth comes from incorruptible seed, meaning it cannot be undone.

2. 2 Peter 2:20-22: Does It Teach Loss of Salvation?
The passage in 2 Peter 2:20-22 does not describe true believers losing salvation but rather false converts who never truly belonged to Christ:

"A dog returns to its own vomit" and "A sow... returns to wallowing in the mire" both emphasize that these individuals never had a new nature—they merely cleaned up outwardly but remained unchanged.

Compare with 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us."

The passage states they had "knowledge of the Lord", not that they were regenerated.

Many can have knowledge without salvation (*Heb_6:4-6; Mat_7:21-23).


3. True Believers Are Sealed and Kept by God

+Ephesians 1:13-14: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth... ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." The Greek word for sealed (σφραγίζω, sphragizō) means a mark of permanent ownership.

+Philippians 1:6: "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

+Romans 8:38-39: Nothing, including our own choices, "shall be able to separate us from the love of God."


A truly born-again believer cannot become unborn.
2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to false converts, not true believers.
True salvation is an irreversible act of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit.


2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world - This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,.... The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said (q),
"he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled בטנופי עלמא, "with the pollutions of the world", what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:''
these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have


Much like the five wise and five foolish virgins.

Shalom.

Johann.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Christians are opposed to OSAS because they understand scripture very well.
Most Christians do NOT believe in OSAS....this is a danger signal.

Waiting on your verse to prove your point.

The jews were apposed to OSAS because they believed they could be good enough. and they live for God and because of their works God would save them.

Gods requirment is perfection. If you commit one sin, your unworthy and lost forever. Unless you are saved.

Only one person who ever walked the earth was worthy of salvation. And he took his own righteousness and hung on a cross.

 

[GodsGrace]

the passage never says they were born again.

2 Peter says they were never born again?
Do we need to define what born again means??
Here it is again:
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Someone has escaped the defilement of the world.
Romans 12:1 DO NOT BE CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD BUT BE TRANSFORMED.
and HOW have they escaped?
Through the knowledge of the LORD and Savior Jesus....
they knew Jesus was Lord and Savior.
A born again person must accept that Jesus is Lord and Savior.
So we can know that they were born again.

they are again entangled in them and are overcome,

This confirms also Luke 15:24 where JESUS uses the word AGAIN to denote that the son had returned to a previous state...
except here the previous state is the state of being lost.
The person(s) that were saved have AGAIN RETURNED to what had originally entangled them.

the last state has become worse for them than the first.
The last is worse than the first.

They were:
lost
found
lost they returned to their original state of being lost.

21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,

Seems they knew the way of righteousness....

than having known it

And, indeed, they did know it....

to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

They TURNED AWAY....
it is always the person that turns away...NOT GOD.

22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

A dog RETURNS to its vomit...
they RETURNED to the previous state of being lost.

Here is what some actually believe that I have read lately. They would rewrite John 3:16 this way since it is exactly what they believe the verse is saying.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever (conditionally believes in Him might perish or live depending upon meeting those conditions that are added to their faith after being conditionally saved), but have conditional life a life that might be temporal and not eternal.

Well actually there are conditions.

SALVATION IS UNCONDITIONAL.
Only belief is required.

Once we become born again...there are other conditions.
One of them is TO OBEY GOD.
I think this is the only way...can't think of any others right now.

What if we DO NOT obey God?

Jesus said that if we're His friends we will obey Him.
John 15:14

What if we don't obey Him?

Romans 1:5 speaks of the obedience of faith.
Romans 2:6 states that God will render to each man according to his deeds.

Remember God does not save you, give you eternal life because its up to you to remain saved and have everlasting life. Humans are the Savior, not God.

It IS up to us to remain saved.
Where in the NT does it state we are to do nothing once we're saved?
Jesus, Paul and all the other writers speak consistently of how we are to behave and comport ourselves.
Do I need to post verses??
Romans 13:9-13
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.


Matthew 25:34-40
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'


Jesus requires good works/deeds from us.

What a farce its humanism, works based salvation and contradicts all the promises that Christ made and guaranteed with Eternal Life/ Salvation for those who believe.

So you believe Jesus does it all?
If He left us works to do as in Matthew 25...
how is that works salvation?
To me works salvation means that we are saved by works.
This is not scriptural...our works cannot save us.

And WHERE did Jesus guarantee us eternal life?
I can't find it.

In Romans 6:20–23, Paul invites Christians to consider their lives before coming to Christ and since. He also compares the contrasting rewards of each way of life: “When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Paul is saying that HOLINESS leads to eternal life.

And again...
We have eternal life IN JESUS....
for as long as we abide IN JESUS.

IF we don't OBEY....we are not abiding.

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Verse 2: Every branch IN ME (this is a born again believer) that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT....He (God) takes away.
It is cut off and burned...verse 6


What do YOU believe that fruit is?
Did Jesus come to create a better world or not?

Before salvation, we were slaves to sin and destined for death. But through faith in Jesus Christ, we received the gift of God, which is the salvation of souls unto eternal life: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” (John 3:16–17).

Agreed.

The word gift (charisma in Greek) in Romans 6:23 means “a present given as a sign of good favor.” Ephesians 2:8–9 elaborates on this gift: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” The gift of God does not depend on our behavior. It cannot be earned, like a wage. The Bible calls it a “free gift” (Romans 6:23, ESV). We don’t work for the gift of eternal life; we receive it simply because God’s good favor is poured out on us.

Agreed.

The gift of God is His “abundant provision of grace.” It is “not like the trespass,” which brings death through sin. “God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ” brings everlasting life (Romans 5:15–17; see also Romans 3:24; Ephesians 1:7–8). Sin pays its wages in death, and sinners get what they deserve. But God bestows a free gift, and believers in Jesus Christ receive what they don’t deserve—eternal life.

You said the sinners get what they deserve.
Could a born again believer become a sinner again?
AGAIN....

The gift of God is Jesus Christ, His Son. The apostle Paul thanks God for His “indescribable gift” in Jesus (2 Corinthians 9:15). Jesus calls Himself “the gift of God” in the form of “living water” to the woman of Samaria (John 4:10). Jesus provides this definition of eternal life: “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3). The gift is knowing the One True God through a relationship with Jesus Christ, His Son, who is Himself eternal life.

Agreed.

Christians receive all of Christ’s benefits because of our union with Jesus Christ. Jesus died, and therefore we have died in Him (Romans 6:3; Galatians 2:20). Christ was raised from the dead; thus, we were introduced to new life (Romans 6:4–5). He lives to God, and now we live to God (Romans 6:10–11). Jesus Christ will live forever, and we will live eternally with Him (John 17:3; 1 John 2:25).

You said we were introduced to a new life.
So MUST WE live that new life or do we have a choice?

This is the crux of the matter and a question which @mailmandan will not answer in all these years I've known him.

Here's the question:
ARE BELIEVERS REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS/DEEDS?

(or do we have the choice not to).

The only grounds for receiving the gift of God is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus is the righteous channel of God’s gift of grace poured out by His blood (1 Peter 1:18–19; Revelation 1:5). If we are in Christ through faith, we receive every spiritual blessing in Him (Ephesians 1:3–14). “God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life” (1 John 5:11–13).

Right. The life IS IN HIS SON.

Would you say that disobeying His Son means we are STILL IN HIS SON?

Or does our disobedience to do good works mean it's OK anyway and we can still be saved
whether we obey God or not?

John 3:36 is to believers
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The gift of God is abundant spiritual life—a life with meaning, purpose, and joy—from the moment of salvation and for all eternity (John 10:10; 1 Corinthians 2:9). The old life of sin has no benefit and only leads to death. But serving God has the advantage of sanctification leading to holiness and the gift of God—eternal life in Jesus Christ.got?

Agreed.