What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[Dizerner]

Calvinism teaches the perseverance of the saints.

I understand this to be different than OSAS.

There is a difference in manifestation but not in substance.

For a Calvinist too much sin means "you were never saved to begin with."

But you need to understand that literally, as the words themselves actually stand and mean:

Both teach that "once" you are "saved" you are "always saved."

Definitionally.

That teaching itself encourages sin whether you say it's allowed or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a difference in manifestation but not in substance.

For a Calvinist too much sin means "you were never saved to begin with."

But you need to understand that literally, as the words themselves actually stand and mean:

Both teach that "once" you are "saved" you are "always saved."

Definitionally.

That teaching itself encourages sin whether you say it's allowed or not.

The above is true.
But the difference between Pof the S and OSAS is this.

P of the S teaches that a person will show a transformation in their life.
Calvinism does teach a godly life and that one must adhere to scripture and be obedient.

OSAS teaches that a person can live a life of sin and still be saved.

FOR BOTH of the above,,,the excuse will ALWAYS be that one was never saved to begin with.
I'm having a discussion right now with another member (can't remember the thread) regarding this.

So how does one argue with the notion that a person was never saved to begin with?
Easy. JESUS stated a person could be saved and become lost.

Problem is: They don't even believe Jesus!

I wanted to add that, yes, Pof the S has been around since the reformation---1500,s
It's OSAS in that form that has been here since the 1800's.
Just to clarify.

BTW,,,,Although I already know all that was said in the video you posted (sounds pretty arrogant, right?) including the stuff on Augustine...who damaged Christianity IMHO...I watched the entire video because I have so much respect for several of the speakers.
It was really good and required a lot of work to put together.

Here it is again for anyone interested:

 

[GodsGrace]

Everything is "must or else" with you because you promote salvation by works. Is obedience forced and legalistic for you? Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and not legalism.

The New Testament was written in Greek, so Strong's may help to better understand the meaning of words.

Yes. We are FORCED to obey God.
And...what did people do before Strong's?
You don't trust that the translators of the bible are competent?
We need STRON'S to understand the bible?
What are we theologians that every NUANCE of every word needs to be understood?
I speak 3 languages.....when you understand a language you don't need A SOURCE to understand it better.

I continuously quote scripture and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine yet you say I have no Biblical support.

I already did in post #222.

You always find a way to argue. I'm beginning to think that you enjoy arguing and even find it entertaining.

I don't have much time....
I pick my conversations carefully.
Notice this: The only 2 topics I will spend any amount of time on are these:
REFORMED/CALVINIST THEOLOGY
OSAS

Because they are horrendous teachings that were NEVER taught in the church from the very beginning and each one
is an affront to GOD. In different ways....

I don't refuse the scriptures. I only refuse your eisegesis.

The demons also believe in James 2:19 (same Greek word --pisteuo) and they are not saved. Saving belief trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and falls away.

The above is so silly Dan.
Really....are we back in theology 101?

Be sure to read post #7 from the link below:

Post in thread 'Excellent Discussion on OSAS'

Feb 6, 2025

Luke says they believe for awhile and fall away.

Only two ways to salvage that passage for OSAS:

1. It wasn't real belief, even though it calls it real belief.
2. Falling away is still saved, just falling to lesser rewards.

Neither one fits the context.

Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain why:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil...

• mailmandan

No. Just against what you taught.

I already thoroughly covered this in post #222.

BUT you haven't done what I've asked and which you apparently cannot do.
You haven't posted ANY scripture that supports your point of view.

I see 2 more alerts from you..
perhaps I'll find them there.

 

[GodsGrace]

The wording of the five foolish virgins is all too familiar to the reader of Matthew’s Gospel: Matthew 25:11 - "Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!"

Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven" but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven - (See John 6:40). 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful works?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

This KNOWING YOU is a big item for you.
I've gone through this with Matthew 7.
Jesus stated plainly WHY He never knew them...
because THEY WERE LAWLESS.

The virgins were not accepted BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT READY....NO OIL.

If we don't OBEY GOD and DO GOOD WORKS He will not know that person either....
You are teaching a dangerous teaching and those lost by your incorrect teaching will be on your conscience.

Do you read up above where you yourself wrote.
ONLY THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL GET INTO HEAVEN.

Let that sink in Dan and anyone reading along that doubts.
WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER?
What did Jesus teach?
To ONLY believe in Him
or
Did He leave us with specific commands?

The difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins: The wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil, and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to get oil, but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

But they were ALL waiting for the groom....let's see:

1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

All 10 went out to meet the bridegroom.

2 "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.

Sounds like Matthew 7:23....the foolish man who didn't listen to Jesus teaching.
Why do you think they were foolish...IF they WENT to meet the groom, which shows they WANTED to be with him.

3 "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

Interesting.. They had their lamps....their desire....
but something was missing.
Sounds like we need to DO something in order to CONTINUE TO BE SAVED.


4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
6 "But at midnight * there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

The bridegroom could arrive at any moment.
Our death is at the doorstep.
Are we ready?
Is ONLY FAITH enough to be ready?
NO. Scripture does NOT teach that only faith is necessary,,,
but also OBEDIENCE to God and the commandments He has left us with.


7 "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
8 "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
9 "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

The 5 went to the dealer.
They WANTED to be saved...
but, alas, it was TOO LATE.

11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

WHY did Jesus not know them?
Same as the reason Jesus did not know those in Matthew 7.
THEY DID NOT FOLLOW THE LAW OF GOD.
They were not ready.
They were lacking something.
And it could not be faith because they WANTED to be with the bridegroom.

And, really, faith and salvation are not even mentioned in these verses.
It just states that we need to be ready.
HOW TO BE READY....THIS IS THE QUESTION.

Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’

Again...notice WHY the owner did NOT KNOW THEM.
Because they were EVILDOERS.
Now....if we don't obey God....
Are we evildoers??

This is the question that requires a reply.

28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out. 29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God. 30 But indeed, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Jesus may indeed be warning us in this parable that there will be a number of people who look like Christians, who associate with Christians, and who even think they are Christians, who will be shocked to learn that they are not saved at the return of our Lord and Christ never knew them. What a sobering thought!

Earlier in this post you said - Your Strong's is not necessary. All that is necessary is the New Testament and the words of Jesus. But now you are referring to the Greek. Back peddle much?

Not at all. https://biblehub.com/greek/eze_sen_2198.htm

Well Dan...you like Strong's so much I thought it would HELP YOU to understand the word AGAIN...
since you don't seem to understand that AGAIN means that something happened TWO TIMES.

This is in reference to
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again;

I post this for those reading along because your teaching is very dangerous:

Notice:
the son was saved
he became lost
he had come to life AGAIN

The word AGAIN means the son was RESTORED to a former position.
It's plan English Dan. (or Greek).

 

[GodsGrace]

We are not saved over and over again, but only once. We are born again only once. You are mistaken.

You don't seem to understand what I write.
Please show me WHERE I stated that we are saved over and over again.
Please post the post number and my exact words.

Very easy indeed. CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) Being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NASB).

I believe Jesus and I already thoroughly covered 2 Timothy 2:12 in post #206.

You are not fooling me.

Jesus does not expect forced, legalistic obedience which culminates in works righteousness.

Read verses 2-3.

That may be your biased understanding but I'm not buying it.

Repent means to think differently or afterwards reconsider. Change of mind. See (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21; Acts 26:18).

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may falll (and is lost again? NO) and RISE AGAIN, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. According to your biased belief, so much for God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) or Jesus' promise that His sheep will never being snatched from His hand (John 10:27-28) or being sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30) Also, so much for God finishes what He started. (Philippians 1:6) In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

I'm obsessed with faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith and God's preservation. You are obsessed with works righteousnessp and self preservation.

The church that I attend is very much Christian that correctly preaches the gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and promotes the abundant life.

Do you consider Roman Catholicism mainline Christianity? They don't believe in OSAS but they do believe in transubstantiation, indulgences, purgetory, infant baptism, perpetual virginity of Mary and salvation by works.

Spoken like a Roman Catholic. Believing in OSAS is not a cult like belief. But believing in a works based false gospel is a cult like belief. Don't confuse me with Mormons and JW's. There were people who believed in OSAS and faith alone before the 1800's and the Bible is much older than the 1800's.

You are the master of IRONY.

I see there's even ANOTHER post from you.

So I've been on the defensive and I don't mind.

So when are YOU going to post some scripture that SUPPORTS YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

So far....NOTHING.


BTW,,,,I'm not going to read the next post
UNLESS you've posted scripture to support your point of view.

 

[GodsGrace]

That judgment call is well above your pay grade. I stand on the cross of Christ and not on works righteousness, which is the alternative. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

How? So, according to you ALL Christians who believe in OSAS will not be saved? Is believing in OSAS vs. NOSAS the dividing line between saved and condemned or is belief or unbelief the dividing line? (John 3:18; Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Again,,,did I say that those that do not believe in OSAS will not be saved?
PLEASE post the post number and the exact words where I stated that.

And my judgment call is not above my pay grade.
YOU have made statements supporting a position and have said that you're standing at the cross of Christ.
I have stated that you are not standing at the cross of Christ UNLESS you teach what HE taught.

And you are NOT doing that.
You are doing the opposite.

If I cannot state the above...
Matthew 18 becomes irrelevant, doesn't it?

15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.


Now, you're going to understand that I'm calling you a sinner....
I don't really care because it's apparent you don't grasp language easily.

Roman Catholics strongly oppose OSAS as do ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works. "Nominal" Christians out number genuine Christians. There were people who believed in OSAS and faith alone before the 1800's and the Bible is much older than the 1800's in spite of your biased sales pitch.

I already posted multiple verses that support eternal security of the believer. Since you trust in works to maintain your salvation you could not have assurance of salvation because you could never know for sure if you did enough works.

Is that what Jesus stated in (John 5:24; 6:38-40; John 10:27-29?)

I have not ignored Jesus in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,38-40,47; 11:25-26; 10:27-29). You teach that salvation is maintained by works/salvation by works at the back door/works righteousness (Romans 11:6) and then you have the audacity to basically judge me as condemned for believing in OSAS/eternal security/preservation of the saints.

Oh, the irony.

Waiting on YOUR SCRIPTURE that proves that once we have salvation we can never lose it.

 

[GodsGrace]

@mailmandan

Dan,,,
you may not like post no. 262
but it's what those that teach OSAS believe.

I'm on another forum where a member stated that a person could
BLASPHEME the Holy Spirit AND STILL BE SAVED.

THIS is the end result of believing a false doctrine
THIS is why I'm saying that you teach a dangerous doctrine.

We are REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.
It could be out of love (hopefully)
or it could be out of fear (sadly)
but OBEDIENCE IS REQUIRED.

Those who do not obey God...
will have the wrath of God upon them.

WAITING ON YOUR SCRIPTURE SUPPORTING YOUR POINT OF VIEW
THAT A PERSON CANNOT LOSE THEIR SALVATION.
Thanks.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

FALSE PROPOSITION: Once we are walking over the water towards Christ, we can never sink.
TRUE PROPOSITION: Once we are walking over the water towards Christ, we will never drown.

OSAS is true inasmuch as it interprets loss of salvation as drowning… and it is false inasmuch as it interprets salvation as sinking.
Therfore, debates on the matter often turn as harsh as irrelevant.

That’s why I prefer to think in terms of OLAL and not on OSAS.
OLAL = once loved, always loved.
Who in the Forum thinks God will stop loving you?

 

[GodsGrace]

FALSE PROPOSITION: Once we are walking over the water towards Christ, we can never sink.
TRUE PROPOSITION: Once we are walking over the water towards Christ, we will never drown.

OSAS is true inasmuch as it interprets loss of salvation as drowning… and it is false inasmuch as it interprets salvation as sinking.
Therfore, debates on the matter often turn as harsh as irrelevant.

That’s why I prefer to think in terms of OLAL and not on OSAS.
OLAL = once loved, always loved.
Who in the Forum thinks God will stop loving you?

Paul was walking on the water.
He took his eyes off Jesus.
He began to sink.

What you're talking about here is sinning.
What I'm talking about is apostacy.

Do you think there's a difference?

later...

 

[Johann]

We are not saved over and over again, but only once. We are born again only once. You are mistaken.

Very easy indeed. CONTEXT - All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) Being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NASB).

I believe Jesus and I already thoroughly covered 2 Timothy 2:12 in post #206.

You are not fooling me.

Jesus does not expect forced, legalistic obedience which culminates in works righteousness.

Read verses 2-3.

That may be your biased understanding but I'm not buying it.

Repent means to think differently or afterwards reconsider. Change of mind. See (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21; Acts 26:18).

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may falll (and is lost again? NO) and RISE AGAIN, but the wicked shall fall by calamity. According to your biased belief, so much for God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) or Jesus' promise that His sheep will never being snatched from His hand (John 10:27-28) or being sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30) Also, so much for God finishes what He started. (Philippians 1:6) In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

I'm obsessed with faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith and God's preservation. You are obsessed with works righteousnessp and self preservation.

The church that I attend is very much Christian that correctly preaches the gospel (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and promotes the abundant life.

Do you consider Roman Catholicism mainline Christianity? They don't believe in OSAS but they do believe in transubstantiation, indulgences, purgetory, infant baptism, perpetual virginity of Mary and salvation by works.

Spoken like a Roman Catholic. Believing in OSAS is not a cult like belief. But believing in a works based false gospel is a cult like belief. Don't confuse me with Mormons and JW's. There were people who believed in OSAS and faith alone before the 1800's and the Bible is much older than the 1800's.

You are the master of IRONY.

Well done @mailmandan-you have answered @GodsGrace questions to me.

Just woke up 01.55 PM.

J.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes. We are FORCED to obey God.

We are FORCED to obey God? Really? To be forced means against someone's wishes and without them being given any choice. I serve a loving God and not a tyrant. I choose to obey God from my own free will, out of love. I am not forced against my wishes and without being given any choice to obey God. Where is the love in that?

And...what did people do before Strong's?

I'm not saying that without Strongs nobody could understand words in the Bible at all. I'm just saying that understanding the original Greek may help you to get a better understanding of certain words in scripture.

You don't trust that the translators of the bible are competent?

Actually, I do, but English does not always convey the full meaning of Greek words. I've seen folks simply define belief as mere mental assent belief and leave out trust in the definition. I even heard someone once say that ALL belief is the same except for the lack of good works. This person could not understand a deeper belief that involves more than mere mental assent belief and also includes faith, trust, entrust one's spiritual well-being to Christ.

Believe - Greek word "Pisteuo" - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv) (blueletterbible.org)

It's the same with faith. I've heard certain folks basically define faith as mental assent belief "infused" with works. Yet the word faith includes trust and reliance upon Christ for salvation. Greek word pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

G4102 - pistis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

G4102 - πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from ; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel)...

www.blueletterbible.org

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not works.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Although saving belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. *Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this (just as you are now) and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works.

We need STRON'S to understand the bible?

The Strong's can help to understand certain Greek words that have been translated into English better, but ultimately, we need the Holy Spirit to properly understand (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).

What are we theologians that every NUANCE of every word needs to be understood?
I speak 3 languages.....when you understand a language you don't need A SOURCE to understand it better.

You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

I don't have much time....
I pick my conversations carefully.

My guess would have been that you have a lot of time. Your posts just go on and on and on and on..

Notice this: The only 2 topics I will spend any amount of time on are these:
REFORMED/CALVINIST THEOLOGY
OSAS

Christians in the OSAS camp are typically referred to as Calvinists by those who strongly oppose OSAS.

Because they are horrendous teachings that were NEVER taught in the church from the very beginning and each one
is an affront to GOD. In different ways....

The only thing horrendous about that teaching is if someone used it as a license to sin, which I don't.

The above is so silly Dan.
Really....are we back in theology 101?

I should be asking you that question. What I said was not silly. Can you describe the difference between the content of what is believed in James 2:19 and Acts 16:31? In both verses, the word "believe" comes from the same Greek word "pisteuo" yet we know that the demons are not saved. What are they lacking in their belief?

BUT you haven't done what I've asked and which you apparently cannot do.
You haven't posted ANY scripture that supports your point of view.

I previously referred you back to post #222.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

The Lord does not forsake His saints/they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

Jesus shall lose none of all those He has been given. (John 6:39)

Jesus' sheep hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand. (John 10:27-28)

Those He predestined, called and whom He justified these He also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

Who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:22)

Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5:5)

We believe the gospel, are sealed with the Holy Spirit/guarantee of our inheritance until the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

We are sealed unto/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14)

Those who are born of God are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:1)

I see 2 more alerts from you..
perhaps I'll find them there.

You must not be looking very hard.

 

[mailmandan]

Well done @mailmandan-you have answered @GodsGrace questions to me.

Just woke up 01.55 PM.

J.

Good morning brother!

 

[Johann]

Good morning brother!

Yup, I need a gallon of coffee-lol!

J.

 

[Red Baker]

ONLY THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL GET INTO HEAVEN.

I'm marking this to post later ~ this blanket statement is very misleading, just as those who preach once a person makes a confession, then regardless what they teach and how they live, heaven will be their eternal home, but both statements are very misleading and has error.

"ONLY THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL GET INTO HEAVEN."~all of the elect, have perfectly done the will of God, in Christ, as their surety! Lot and Abraham both will sit down in the kingdom of heaven together through Christ!

 

[mailmandan]

This KNOWING YOU is a big item for you.
I've gone through this with Matthew 7.
Jesus stated plainly WHY He never knew them...
because THEY WERE LAWLESS.

All unbelievers apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ to wash away our sins are seen as lawless in the eyes of God because our sin remains. Being lawless was not the heart of the issue but was a symptom of unbelief. (John 3:18) These many people were trusting in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. (Matthew 7:22) They failed to accomplish the Father's will (Matthew 7:21) in obtaining salvation. (John 6:40)

The virgins were not accepted BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT READY....NO OIL.

If we don't OBEY GOD and DO GOOD WORKS He will not know that person either....
You are teaching a dangerous teaching and those lost by your incorrect teaching will be on your conscience.

You are teaching a dangerous teaching, namely, salvation by works. I teach salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) People will be saved and not lost by my teaching. I am really beginning to worry about you.

Do you read up above where you yourself wrote.
ONLY THOSE THAT DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER WILL GET INTO HEAVEN.

Let that sink in Dan and anyone reading along that doubts.
WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER?
What did Jesus teach?
To ONLY believe in Him
or
Did He leave us with specific commands?

This is God's will for us IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Also, what did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,47; 11:25,26? What other specific commands did Jesus add here? Jesus said BELIEVE "apart from additions or modifications."

Not to be confused with God's will for us AFTER we have been saved. 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

But they were ALL waiting for the groom....let's see:

1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

All 10 went out to meet the bridegroom.

2 "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.

Sounds like Matthew 7:23....the foolish man who didn't listen to Jesus teaching.
Why do you think they were foolish...IF they WENT to meet the groom, which shows they WANTED to be with him.

3 "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

Interesting.. They had their lamps....their desire....
but something was missing.
Sounds like we need to DO something in order to CONTINUE TO BE SAVED.

4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
6 "But at midnight * there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'

The bridegroom could arrive at any moment.
Our death is at the doorstep.
Are we ready?
Is ONLY FAITH enough to be ready?
NO. Scripture does NOT teach that only faith is necessary,,,
but also OBEDIENCE to God and the commandments He has left us with.

7 "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
8 "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
9 "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

The 5 went to the dealer.
They WANTED to be saved...
but, alas, it was TOO LATE.

11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

WHY did Jesus not know them?
Same as the reason Jesus did not know those in Matthew 7.
THEY DID NOT FOLLOW THE LAW OF GOD.
They were not ready.
They were lacking something.
And it could not be faith because they WANTED to be with the bridegroom.

And, really, faith and salvation are not even mentioned in these verses.
It just states that we need to be ready.
HOW TO BE READY....THIS IS THE QUESTION.

I already thoroughly covered this in post #257.

Again...notice WHY the owner did NOT KNOW THEM.
Because they were EVILDOERS.

Again, this is a symptom of unbelief, but unbelief is the heart of the problem. (John 3:18)

Now....if we don't obey God....
Are we evildoers??

If we don't obey God in choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) we will not become saved. (Romans 10:16) You use the word obey too loosely. Now how many of us obey God without fault or defect, 24/7? Do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? (1 John 1:8-10) Are you seeking salvation through faith in Christ or through imperfect obedience?

This is the question that requires a reply.

Well Dan...you like Strong's so much I thought it would HELP YOU to understand the word AGAIN...
since you don't seem to understand that AGAIN means that something happened TWO TIMES.

Are we born again once or twice?

This is in reference to
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again;

I post this for those reading along because your teaching is very dangerous:

I already thoroughly covered this in post #222. Other translations say, your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found (NASB). We are not born again over and over again, and I don't teach lawlessness. Salvation by works is a very dangerous teaching because works salvation is no salvation at all.

Notice:
the son was saved
he became lost
he had come to life AGAIN

Show me the words "saved all over again" in Luke 15:24. Regardless of your bias, the son is going to make it anyway.

The word AGAIN means the son was RESTORED to a former position.
It's plan English Dan. (or Greek).

Is that what happens when we are born AGAIN? We are restored to a former born-again position. Or are we born again only once and then begin to live spiritually?

 

[mailmandan]

Well done @mailmandan-you have answered @GodsGrace questions to me.

Just woke up 01.55 PM.

J.

Thank you, brother.

Can you believe what GodsGrace said in post #263?

Yes. We are FORCED to obey God.

I choose to obey God from my own free will, out of love and reverence for Him and not because I feel forced to obey Him out of ungodly fear that He is a tyrant who can't wait to punish me every time I mess up. What kind of love relationship is that?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Calvinism teaches the perseverance of the saints.

I understand this to be different than OSAS.

In fact, this very thread is about the differences.

If I may:
OSAS states that once a person has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior...they can live a life of sin and still be saved because they are somehow sealed into salvation. The NT teaches obedience to God so OSAS cannot be correct.

This is not correct. No one I know who believes in OSAS believes this

Perseverance of the saints is a Calvinist teaching that states that if God has chosen a person for salvation...then God will also keep that person safe all their life and make them persevere till the end of their life.

Which makes it evil and a false doctrine. because we can not persevere. 1 sin makes us guilty. and since we all sin. no one is worthy of salvation

This is also not biblical because the NT teaches that we can fall away from our faith.

But it does nto say we can fall away from salvation

So, yes, Calvinism began in the 1500's,,,,you're 100% correct.

But OSAS began in the 1800's and was adapted by some denominations that were NOT reformed/Calvinist.


Should I still watch the documentary?

actually eternal security, osas or whatever you want to call it. started with God. and if you study the book of John, it is in almost every chapter starting from chapter 1 until chapter 9 and then some. It is found in his epistles as well.

 

[civic]

There is a difference in manifestation but not in substance.

For a Calvinist too much sin means "you were never saved to begin with."

But you need to understand that literally, as the words themselves actually stand and mean:

Both teach that "once" you are "saved" you are "always saved."

Definitionally.

That teaching itself encourages sin whether you say it's allowed or not.

So a believer has no security in Christ. The whole Christ alone is a farce with salvation/ eternal life.

There is no past, present and future aspect to salvation, redemption and eternal life ?

 

[Johann]

I choose to obey God from my own free will, out of love and reverence and not out of ungodly fear that He is a tyrant who can't wait to punish me.

God is forcing NO one brother-

God Calls All to Believe but Does Not Force – Throughout Scripture, God extends His call to salvation, urging people to believe, yet He allows them to respond freely. +Mat_11:28 ("Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"), +Rev_22:17 ("whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely"), +Joh_7:37-38 ("If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink").

The language used emphasizes invitation rather than coercion.

Man is Held Responsible for Responding to God – Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they would not come to Him. +Mat_23:37 ("O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… how often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not!"), +Joh_5:40 ("And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life"), +Act_7:51 ("Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost"). If God forced belief, these passages would be meaningless, for rejection would not be possible.

Faith is an Act of the Will, Not a Forced Response – Faith is something that individuals exercise rather than something imposed on them. +Joh_3:16 ("whosoever believeth in him should not perish"), +Rom_10:9-10 ("if thou shalt confess with thy mouth… and believe in thine heart"), +Heb_11:6 ("he that cometh to God must believe that he is").

God Draws, But Man Must Respond – Scripture teaches that God "draws" people to Himself, but drawing does not equate to forcing. +Joh_6:44 ("No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"), +Joh_12:32 ("And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"). The Greek word for "draw" (ἕλκω, helkō) can mean to pull or attract, but it does not necessitate compulsion; rather, it implies persuasion.

Many Reject Salvation Despite God’s Willingness to Save – Scripture shows that some refuse salvation even though God genuinely desires all to repent. +Eze_18:23 ("Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"), +2Pe_3:9 ("not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"), +1Ti_2:4 ("Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"). If God forced belief, none could resist His will, but many do.

Love Requires Free Will – God desires a genuine relationship, not robotic obedience. +Deu_30:19 ("I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life"), +Jos_24:15 ("choose you this day whom ye will serve"), +Isa_1:18 ("Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD"). A forced belief would negate genuine love, which requires choice.

Thus, while God convicts hearts, calls people to salvation, and provides the means of faith through His Spirit and His Word, He does not force anyone to believe. The repeated theme in Scripture is that man is called to respond willingly.

I am reading the convo between you and her @mailmandan.

God bless.

Johann.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sadly, the pendulum only seems to swing too far to the left or right on this forum when discussing OSAS. I'm tired of being judged unfairly by anti-OSAS extremists on this forum who falsely accuse me of promoting a license to sin, rejecting good works then judging me as lost and condemned. Such folks are making judgment calls that are well above their pay grade.

Now I have a brother who attends the church of the Nazarene and he believes that a Christain can lose their salvation by walking away from the Lord and remaining that way. I disagree that a genuine a Christain would do that but my brother and I do not sit around arguing about it or condemn each other for not believing the other way around. We still accept each other as brothers in Christ based on our faith in Christ.

I have 2 friends that are JWs.
We don't sit around discussing whether or not Jesus is God.

BUT
You're on a forum and you've made the statement that OSAS is a correct doctrine.
You can expect that there will be Christians that will not agree with you because MOST OF CHRISTIANITY
does not. That must surely count for something.

OSAS is a Calvinistic idea that started with the reformation...
was never believed before..
and is rejected by MOST Christians denominations.

So you could expect some push-back on this.