What is regeneration?

[Behold]

. Your mouth is to big and exhibit a cantankerous, vicious spirit.

You finger point a lot for such a "saint". @Johann

And do you recall yesterday?
Thats the day you misrepresented me to this very forum.... as a "fornicating drunk"...so, perhaps you have the "Mouth problem".

Listen.....I think you have something in your eye.... again.

So, as ive told you for over 2 yrs on 2 forums...... you are the victim of "man's theology", as that is all you post.

And in the case of your water baptism theology.....that is strictly "CULT of MARY".. (Catholic).

Its interesting to note that when i first met you, you were "coming out of Calvinism" and then you jumped right into a Water Cult.

What is next?

L. Ron Hubbard?

My advice?
Listen to me, and i'll help you .
I know the way..

 

[praise_yeshua]

Hades is the name of the place where they went to but it's still not clear if you're saying that Adam is somehow not in need of or exempted from Christ's Atonement?

The "born of water" is an appeal to man's beginnings in Adam. Not through "natural birth" (though natural do mimic to some degree Adam's beginnings).

Adam was/is a seed. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

Adam was taken from the ashes/dirt left as a "deluge" receded.

 

[Behold]

The "born of water" is an appeal to man's beginnings in Adam.

What is that CULT nonsense?

Scripture and verse?

Where in a Bible is that found??

Take your time @praise_yeshua

 

[praise_yeshua]

What is that CULT nonsense?

Scripture and verse?

Where in a Bible is that found??

Take your time @praise_yeshua

What was Adam formed from?

Did you answer this?

Man was of the earth

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Psa 103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Flesh. Dirt.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

 

[Behold]

What was Adam formed from?

His Body = Dirt

His Spirit = "God Breathed into Adam.""


Now you wrote this nonsense.

@praise_yeshua .... said..

= """""The "born of water" is an appeal to man's beginnings in Adam."""""""


What is that CULT Theology nonsense?

Scripture and verse?

Where in a Bible is that found??

Take your time @praise_yeshua

 

[synergy]

The "born of water" is an appeal to man's beginnings in Adam. Not through "natural birth" (though natural do mimic to some degree Adam's beginnings).

Adam was/is a seed. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

Adam was taken from the ashes/dirt left as a "deluge" receded.

Sorry, if it was an appeal to man's/Adam's beginnings then dust should have been mentioned, not water.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sorry, if it was an appeal to man's/Adam's beginnings then dust should have been mentioned, not water.

1. The dust was covered by the deluge.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2. Also God caused a mist to come upon the earth.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man without water has no life. Man is but dust.

 

[praise_yeshua]

His Body = Dirt

His Spirit = "God Breathed into Adam.""

Man became a living soul. Adam never ceased being a living soul.

Now you wrote this nonsense.

The Truth does anger people. However, here the nonsense is yours.

You have no authority nor do you have the means/understanding to tie what I've said to some "cult". (which is proven by your inability to name one). You're sinfully projecting your lack of knowledge toward me. Feel free to continue to follow men in this. So much for your claims to "holiness"...

I'm curious why do you claim to fellowship with God in contradiction to your own assessment of others. Are you self aware of your own limitations? We certain can see others limits will rejecting our own..... Such is the ways of mankind. I appeal to your empathy.

@praise_yeshua .... said..

= """""The "born of water" is an appeal to man's beginnings in Adam."""""""

What is that CULT Theology nonsense?

Scripture and verse?

Where in a Bible is that found??

Take your time @praise_yeshua

Did water cover the face of the earth?

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Nicodemus well knew what Jesus was referencing.

The womb of a women mimics the earth and the birth of Adam. In fact, the ark of the covenant had two angels that are symbolic of ovaries.

 

[synergy]

1. The dust was covered by the deluge.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2. Also God caused a mist to come upon the earth.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man without water has no life. Man is but dust.

I don't think you need to go far to arrive at the "why water?" answer. The answer is contained within the same chapter of the verse in question (John 3:5). Notice that the baptismal ministry of Christ, his Disciples, and John the Baptist is mentioned in verses 22 & 23. This is no coincidence. IOW, Jesus' conversation with Nichodemus sets the stage perfectly for Regeneration and Baptism.

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.
23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't think you need to go far to arrive at the "why water?" answer. The answer is contained within the same chapter of the verse in question (John 3:5). Notice that the baptismal ministry of Christ, his Disciples, and John the Baptist is mentioned in verses 22 & 23. IOW, Jesus' conversation with Nichodemus sets the stage perfectly for Baptism.

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.
23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Baptism has long been a part of Judaism. One of the first things that was created in a new community was a pool of water to bath in and perform ritual cleaning. I'm not disagreeing with you. Just saying that baptism is based upon creation. John was a call "back" to what was lost among the ancient world (before Noah) and oral/written traditions among the Jews.

 

[synergy]

Baptism has long been a part of Judaism. One of the first things that was created in a new community was a pool of water to bath in and perform ritual cleaning. I'm not disagreeing with you. Just saying that baptism is based upon creation. John was a call "back" to what was lost among the ancient world (before Noah) and oral/written traditions among the Jews.

Ok. That confirms that ritualized, consecrated water has some level of "spiritual" value which was recognized by Christ and His Apostles. I'm not saying that we are regenerated by water. We're obviously regenerated by the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit has the ability to regenerate matter, water in this case, and by extension our bodies. We are not Platonists who think only our souls are regenerated. Our bodies can also be regenerated. Maybe not fully now but definitely in our Resurrection. The Holy Spirit has that power.

 

[TomL]

"Baptism" to Moses is clearly a "covering". So "baptized in His death". To a Jew, a "baptismal" was a local pool of water that signified "washing from the journey".

Which is one of the reasons why they understood but hated the baptism of John in "filthy Jordan".

I don't believe in baptismal regeneration but I do believe in baptism after belief.

So do I

I do not however believe baptism into Moses in the cloud and the sea necessitates a covering

The sea was on the side but not over and the cloud was over but not on the side and neither actually made what could be called an immersion

I would affirm any manner of application of water as a valid baptismal ceremony as long as it is believers baptism

 

[praise_yeshua]

Ok. That confirms that ritualized, consecrated water has some level of "spiritual" value which was recognized by Christ and His Apostles. I'm not saying that are regenerated by water. We're obviously regenerated by the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit has the ability to regenerate matter, water in this case, and by extension our bodies. We are not Platonists who think only our souls are regenerated. Our bodies can also be regenerated. Maybe not fully now but definitely in our Resurrection. The Holy Spirit has that power.

It certain does. We agree in this though we vary in construct. @Johann well understands the value of a mikva.

Sown in weakness, raised in power. Except a seed fall to the ground and die, it abides alone.

 

[Behold]

Man became a living soul. Adam never ceased being a living soul.

I never posted that Adam's soul, or spirit, or body, or anything else, died.

I posted that Adam became spiritually separated from God, when Adam, disobeyed.

That is the "fall of Adam" that became the fall of us all.

The Truth does anger people. However, here the nonsense is yours.

Not answering your own false cult theology, with a verse to try to prove it, is not me being angry.
its you being unable to defend your cult theology.

This is called "deflecting" and you keep failing, everytime you will do it again, @praise_yeshua

You have no authority

Sure i do, i have the authority of a Believer.

How to understand that?

Im a "heir of God" and a "Joint heir with Jesus". so, that family relationship that God has given to me, allows me access to all that God has, all that God is, and all that God can provide.

All the born again, have this... while no religious (only water baptized) fakir, will ever have it.

I'm curious why do you claim to fellowship with God

My Fellowship with God, is based on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, that is proven by His Resurrection.

So, by me becoming a Born Again CHRISTian, i have eternal fellowship with God, based on the One who gave me Eternal life.

Did water cover the face of the earth?

Not when Eve was talking to the Devil.

Nicodemus well knew what Jesus was referencing.

He actually had no idea.. He thought that Jesus was telling him to get back inside his mothers womb, and come out again..... a 2nd time.

So, Jesus THEN taught him, that the first birth was that one, *by water) and the 2nd Birth, was the needful one..

Or as Jesus told us all.

"YOU must be born.........again"

 

[praise_yeshua]

So do I

I do not however believe baptism into Moses in the cloud and the sea necessitates a covering

The sea was on the side but not over and the cloud was over but not on the side and neither actually made what could be called an immersion

I would affirm any manner of application of water as a valid baptismal ceremony as long as it is believers baptism

Got it. I can accept this. I don't make a big deal about it. I do believe being baptised unto His death is more closely aligned/symbolic with "immersion".

 

[Behold]

I would affirm any manner of application of water as a valid baptismal ceremony as long as it is believers baptism

Reader..

What if you are born again, and yet you die before you are water baptized...........

What if you are the dying Thief on the Cross who was saved, went with Jesus, but was never water baptized...........

What if you are on "death row", and they are walking you to the Electric Chair at 5am...., and i stop you on your way there, and ask you if you are ready to receive Christ as you Savior, and you tell me that you do now trust in Christ with all your heart.... and want to publicly confess this before they put you to death...........and you do, and then they kill you.

What if you are 88 yrs old, and you are in the Hospital, in the Oncology (Cancer) ward, and you are dying... and will be dead in the next 4 mins.
You are all by yourself, in the dark at 3am...., and you "believe on Jesus with all your heart... and accept Him into your heart by faith".

What if you are in a Communist Country that does not allow Bibles or Christians, and you are in a jail there, and you "trust in Christ with all your heart" while you are in THEIR Jail......

Now, none of those BELIEVERS can be "sprinkled" "immersed", "dunked" or otherwise water baptized.

Are they Saved, ?

Of course they are, and no water baptism was found for them.

So, Reader, if you are under the mind control of a Water Cult, that has you believing that WATER is required for SALVATiON< then i just showed you REAL LIFE CASES where this water cult theology, is proven to be a LIE.

Final answer?

Do not believe a lie., and do not teach a Lie.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I never posted that Adam's soul, or spirit, or body, or anything else, died.

I posted that Adam became spiritually separated from God, when Adam, disobeyed.

That is the "fall of Adam" that became the fall of us all.

You appealed to death through "all have sinned". Is that more accurate?

Adam wasn't driven from God. Adam was driven into his own ways. Adam both pleased God and didn't please God. Just like we do. We are incomplete. Weak. Frail. Inadequate at so many levels. Adam was too.

Peccable things sin. Creation is paradoxical in this manner but you must accept this before you will understand anything else that you current don't know. You believe the righteousness of God revolves around sinning or not sinning. That is only a part of it. Sin is evidence of our weakness and inabilities.

Legalism has taken many forms throughout man's existence but it always equates "take not handle not" as sin. We live after the rules of men in this.

Not answering your own false cult theology, with a verse to try to prove it, is not me being angry.
its you being unable to defend your cult theology.

What cult? Put a name to it. You don't know all of what I believe. None of you do. You know parts of it. I'm my own person. I don't follow men. I base my beliefs on the Scriptures.

This is called "deflecting" and you keep failing, everytime you will do it again, @praise_yeshua

I never deflect.

Sure i have the authority of a Believer.

How to understand that?

Im a "heir of God" and a "Joint heir with Jesus". so, that family relationship that God has given to me, allows me access to all that God has, all that God is, and all that God can provide.

All the born again, have this... while no religious (only water baptized) fakir, will ever have it.

My Fellowship with God, is based on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, that is prove by His Resurrection.

So, by me becoming a Born Again CHRISTian, i have eternal fellowship with God, based on the One who gave me Eternal life.[/QUOTE]

1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Wisdom is justified of her children. I don't answer to you nor do you have authority to determine Orthodoxy. There is a reason Paul made an appeal to a "group" of believers. There is wisdom in an esteemed group. Even then, Christ is my Lord. I will answer to Him as well as all mankind will.

Not when Eve was talking to the Devil.

Eve was taken from Adam. It is why they pierced the side of Christ on the cross. Do you remember what came from the side of Christ? Blood and what?

He actually had no idea.. He thought that Jesus was telling him to get back inside his mothers womb, and come out again..... a 2nd time.

Which is why Nicodemus understood the birth of water was relative to the womb. Which is relative to the earth and orgins of man. He got the first part right. He missed the 2nd part.

So, Jesus THEN taught him, that the first birth was that one, *by water) and the 2nd Birth, was the needful one.. Or as Jesus told us all.

"YOU must be born.........again"

Both are necessary in knowledge. If you understand the first, you will understand the parallel to the 2nd which was accomplished in the Incarnation.

The "first born" into the world.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The first and second Adam completing conformity to Christ.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Johann]

It certain does. We agree in this though we vary in construct. @Johann well understands the value of a mikva.

Sown in weakness, raised in poor. Except a seed fall to the ground and die, it abides alone.

yes I do-but most here are not interested @praise_yeshua

 

[Behold]

You appealed to death through "all have sinned". Is that more accurate?

What you posted makes no sense.

Adam wasn't driven from God.

Adam's spirit that previously was in spiritual union with God, was separated from God, when Adam "sinned".

Jesus the 2nd Adam, came to restore all BELIEVERS back into Spiritual Union with God, as "born... again" = Spiritually.

Peccable things sin.

"All have sinned", who are from Adam, and all are from Adam.

"by one man's sin", (Adam) you became a sinner.

This is all of us... we are all of the "Adamic nature" until we are born again and given (made partakers of) the divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4

What cult?

The cult that does not understand the Fall of Adam as spiritual separation from God.

I never deflect.,

and that is why you posted ZERO verses to try prove what you taught earlier, even tho i asked you 3 times to post the verses.
So, i appreciate your honesty.

 

[Behold]

Eve was taken from Adam. It is why they pierced the side of Christ on the cross.

The Roman solder stabbed Christ to make certain He was dead, is the literal reason.

This can be spiritualized.

Do you remember what came from the side of Christ? Blood and what?

"without the shedding of BLOOD, there is no forgiveness, remission, of Sin".

Water wont help you, as sin is in your HEART, and water baptism only gets you wet on the outside.

Which is why Nicodemus understood the birth of water was relative to the womb. Which is relative to the earth and orgins of man. He got the first part right. He missed the 2nd part.

He missed the 2nd part because Christ was speaking regarding spiritual birth, as the one that matters.

This is why Jesus said..>"you must be....born....again".

Both are necessary in knowledge. If you understand the first, you will understand the parallel to the 2nd which was accomplished in the Incarnation.

Its interesting that all the verses you posted have nothing to do with what you are trying to prove.