What is regeneration?

I honestly can't say that I know exactly what "Abraham's bosom" is. I don't. The traditional position doesn't "set well with me" and I don't know why.GCould be because there's only one verse in the Bible that actually says it in Lk 16:19,31, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. There are many who like to say it is a parable.
Granted there is only one verse in the Bible that says it or at least uses the words, Abraham's Bosom with the rich man and Lazarus. Lk 16. There is however a phrase used about OT saints when they died that they were gathered unto their Fathers. (2 Kn 22:20, Gen 15:15, 1 Kn 1:21, Acts 13:36)

The rhetoric in the NT however now seems to change to 2 Cor 5:8 “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” So it seems at one time (OT times) they were gathered unto their fathers.....but in NT times they are present with the Lord

So why should there be such a place different then heaven? God didn't come straight out and say it for it would be very hard for OT saints to process it but legally no matter how much they served God could they be sons of God until after the resurrection. They became sons of God based on a promissory note but not to take place until after Christ's resurrection. After Christ died on the cross he went to this place and led captivity captive, he showed himself as the promised one to grant the new birth and there they were born again....and then went up to heaven.



Heaven has existed from the beginning. Jesus went to prepare a place. We look for a new heaven and new earth. I don't see anything that presents the premise that "sons of God" existed before Calvary from being true.
Well like you said before regardless of how we think about this the Calvinists position on the matter is certainly amiss.

Enoch was the seventh from Adam. Adam lived to influence Enoch. In my thoughts/mind, I see a deep relationship between Enoch and Adam. Adam knew much more than the limited narrative the surviving Scriptures record. Adam learned directly from God and lived a very long time interacting and fellowshipping with God. Can you image what you would learn from God if we lived several hundred years?
Sure it boggles our minds to consider a life of living up to a thousand years. Many people's experience is to work a career for 30-40 years and then wanting to retire. In those OT times 40 years would be like you're still in the beginning stages of your life, and not the end.
What are you thoughts on the 4 and 20 elders?
Can't say that I know. I suppose people have different theories but I'm thinking that's all they ever will be.

Understood. However, Jesus forgave sins on earth before His death. Jesus called the women with an issue of blood "daughter".
A very good point. I think possible Jesus was calling her that and could rightly do so for she was a daughter of God by the promissory note. We see Abraham for example was called the Friend of God Is 41:8
 
Granted there is only one verse in the Bible that says it or at least uses the words, Abraham's Bosom with the rich man and Lazarus. Lk 16. There is however a phrase used about OT saints when they died that they were gathered unto their Fathers. (2 Kn 22:20, Gen 15:15, 1 Kn 1:21, Acts 13:36)

The rhetoric in the NT however now seems to change to 2 Cor 5:8 “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord” So it seems at one time (OT times) they were gathered unto their fathers.....but in NT times they are present with the Lord

So why should there be such a place different then heaven? God didn't come straight out and say it for it would be very hard for OT saints to process it but legally no matter how much they served God could they be sons of God until after the resurrection. They became sons of God based on a promissory note but not to take place until after Christ's resurrection. After Christ died on the cross he went to this place and led captivity captive, he showed himself as the promised one to grant the new birth and there they were born again....and then went up to heaven.




Well like you said before regardless of how we think about this the Calvinists position on the matter is certainly amiss.



Sure it boggles our minds to consider a life of living up to a thousand years. Many people's experience is to work a career for 30-40 years and then wanting to retire. In those OT times 40 years would be like you're still in the beginning stages of your life, and not the end.

Can't say that I know. I suppose people have different theories but I'm thinking that's all they ever will be.



A very good point. I think possible Jesus was calling her that and could rightly do so for she was a daughter of God by the promissory note. We see Abraham for example was called the Friend of God Is 41:8

Thank you for the response. Your comments are always "thought provoking" and I enjoy them immensely. I will respond a little later. I have a full day ahead of me but I wanted to thank you!
 
can we also agree on the universals, at least generally? See Romans 10:8-13.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Note: Belief/Faith is mentioned often with no mention of Regeneration. Faith comes by hearing, not by Regeneration. Therefore, Faith preceeds Regeneration.
Sir, to say you are confused would be an understatement, with this statement no pun intended, no more then to get your attention.
Faith comes by hearing, not by Regeneration. Therefore, Faith preceeds
Faith indeed comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God ~ no dispute on that point from me. But the word of God teaches that the power , or right, to believe must first be given, or else, no man can have his faith increase by reading, or, hearing the word of God. Listen carefully to John's teaching on this very subject.

Let us carefully consider these verses.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.​

He was in the world~What a terrible indictment of humanity for their blind ignorance of God’s Son. The Word was in the world in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The eternal, unbegotten God that created all things visited and dwelt on earth. This is the first and maybe greatest fact of the mystery of godliness (Isr Timothy 3:16).

And the world was made by him~Every creature, rational and irrational and inanimate, had been created by Him. The whole sphere of earthly existence for men had been created by the Messiah. How can rational creatures living on this earth ignore and reject their Creator? Is it even possible to imagine a comparison in our minds of this great calamity?

And the world knew him not~This is incredible to consider ~ that worldly men had no idea of God on earth. But some did know, love, obey, and die for Christ … were they in the world? There have been men that have known God from Abel right down to Anna.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

He came unto his own~He came to Jews, the lost sheep of Israel, and not to others (Matthew 15:24; 10:6). From prophecy to reality, the virgin-born Son of God was from Israel (Galatians 4:4). The apostles understood this priority from prophecy (Acts 3:25-26; Romans 9:5). Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision, the Jews of Israel (Romans 15:8). The intent had always been to raise up a Saviour in Israel (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7; etc.).

And his own received him not~Though the Messiah was sent to Israel, they did not receive their own Saviour. In spite of prophets, prophecies, apostles, they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. The ox knows its owner and the *** its master’s crib, but Israel did not know the arrival of Jesus Christ, even with a multitude of stupendous signs (Isaiah 1:3). Even His own brothers did not believe on Him until His resurrection (John 7:5). This was a proper and righteous judgment on a wicked nation (John 12:37-41). Be ready always to divide words – many of His own did receive Him (John 1:12).

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

But as many as received him~Rejoice in the inspired disjunctive ~ but ~ for the light of life made a difference. In spite of the previous verse stating that His own received Him not, some did. Natural man cannot and will not receive Christ. (Ist Corinthians 2:14). To receive Christ is to believe on Him as Son of God; see last clause of 1:12. To receive Christ is to accept and believe His doctrine and duties (Col 2:5-9).

To them gave he power to become the sons of God~Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, gave power to some to become God’s sons. Those that received Jesus had His power change them to become His sons. Those that received Jesus were given authority, privilege, right of His sons.

What is the order? Receive Christ or become God’s sons? What is the order? There is no proof thus far, for both verbs are past tense ~ received and gave. The priority or timing of actions is determined by one thing ~ verb tenses. The order of verbs matters little, especially when context declares priority. How did you become the child of your parents? By what process did it occur? They generated and procreated you by a choice of lovemaking to conceive! In the same way you become God’s Son, by His loving choice to regenerate! We are no more involved in your second birth than we were in our first.

Even to them that believe on his name~Even. adverb. Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Also in 16-17th century (hence still archaic after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = ‘namely’, ‘that is to say’. Compare Bible usage in John 8:41; 15:26; I Co 15:24.

It is italicized because the KJV translators honestly admitted interpolation. Do we trust italicized words? Jesus argued from one (Mat 22:31-32; Exodus 3:6).

Believe is present tense. What happened to ‘d’ to lose the context’s past tense? We trust the word of God at the word level, even for one letter (Galatians 3:16). John shifted from a past tense historical narrative to believers in the present. The difference of a single letter makes a big difference and agrees with 1:13. Now we have priority by verb tenses … He gave power to those that believe. The order and priority of salvation is His power in regeneration before faith.

This precious verse is not a complete sentence and does not end with a period. It is heresy to memorize and preach this verse while ignoring its second half~but, many do.

Arminians could not care less about what follows, for they totally reject it. They adore their manmade heresy of decisional regeneration against 1:13.

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Which were born~verse 13 is God's commentary on verse 12~

When were they born – based on actual verb tenses – rather than order of verbs? The phrase were born is a plural number, passive voice, present-perfect verb tense, demanding the action was finished, or perfected, before the present. Rejoice in the grammar of regeneration, which demands birth before faith. Of course they were born naturally before faith, but this is being born again. Let it be settled once and for all time, regeneration always precedes faith.

Not of blood~Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with natural descent, pedigree, etc. Most have no problem with this part.
.
Nor of the will of the flesh~Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with your natural will or choice. This phrase condemns the decisional regeneration heresy of Arminian. These babblers will do anything to elicit a choice by the flesh to get saved. They talk ad nauseam about the simplicity of getting yourself born again. Prior to being born again, all you have is a flesh nature that is denied here. Not only is the will of the flesh denied, but it is impossible for it to so will. A man in the flesh cannot and will not please God; he is a depraved rebel. God’s compassion and mercy are by His own will, not man’s (Romans 9:15-16). If you ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in you (Phil 2:12-13). Only God’s will is active (John 3:8; 5:21; Ephesians 1:5; James 1:18; Hebrews 10:9-10).

What is the will of the flesh that is rejected here as the means of regeneration? You have two natures – one by first birth and one by spiritual birth (Jn 3:6). The will of the flesh is all you have before regeneration – the sinful you. Therefore, this phrase denies any choice or act of will before regeneration! Until you are born again, this is the only will you have – that of the flesh. Paul denied that anything you do in the flesh can please God (Romans 8:7-8).

Nor of the will of man~Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with the will of anyone outside you. This phrase condemns parental efforts to save infants as in Roman Catholicism. There is nothing a parent can do to assist or cooperate for salvation (Ps 49:6-9). No other man has any influence on you being born again, except for One Man! The work of salvation is all found in one man’s obedience (Rom 5:12-19). There is no place for parents, pastors, priests, or soul winners for eternal life. In Him was life! He is the Life! He is resurrection and life! He has the keys!

But of God~Becoming God’s son by being born again is His monergistic, sovereign work. John called it being born again from Jesus (John 3:1-8; I John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-5,18). Paul used quickening (Ephesians 2:1-3; Col 2:13), regeneration, renewing (Titus 3:5). This creative work by God’s power gives each elect person a new spiritual man. We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Eph 2:10).

Coming back to consider Romans 10:1-13
 
can we also agree on the universals, at least generally? See Romans 10:8-13.
Sir, the only sense I can agree on universalism, in the sense which the God of heaven teaches, universalism~God so loved the world, that is, Jews and Gentiles, and among these, he has an elect people from among each.

To be short, the tabernacle of David are the elect, fallen in Adam, raised up again in the second Adam, Jesus Christ, that we may seek after the Lord. This tabernacle is seen in Revelation 21 coming down out of heaven in her final, eternal, glorified state, to dwell on the new earth and in the new heaven described in highly symbolical language. as perfect as perfect can be, and glorious beyond one's imagination, or ability to even comprehend.

I'm sure this is not the universalism you are thinking about, or even considered. Now to Romans 10.

One must go back to verse one of chapter 10, to understand verse 10:13 in its context. Bear with me. It will take two posts to do.

Romans 10:1~Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.​

Brethren~This verse interpretation and application are very important in understanding that most all of God's elect are on different levels of understanding truth~which is why we must show patience unto all men until we perceive no love of the truth in them.​


Many corrupt Paul’s desire and prayer by missing or rejecting elect (2nd Timothy 2:10; 2nd Thess. 3:1-2).

Many corrupt Israel as national Israel, Jews, God’s chosen people, ignoring 9:6 and following.

Many corrupt salvation as from sin and condemnation to eternal heaven, missing gospel conversion here.

Ignoring the context of election within Israel established in the previous chapter is a travesty.

This cannot be national or natural Israel without qualification, for such was already rejected.

My heart’s desire~Paul introduced his heart’s desire in very strong language opening this section of Romans (9:1-3).​


He passed from considering God’s sovereign choices to man’s response to the gospel (9:30-33). Paul had a heart for evangelism, the conversion of unbelieving elect, second to none in the Bible. His heart’s desire should not be confused to be any different than his great labors (2nd Timothy 2:10). Paul endured all the things that he did for the elect’s sakes ~ he did not seek to add to the elect. His purpose was to help them obtain gospel salvation (conversion) along with eternal glory. God guaranteed eternal glory through the surety Jesus Christ (Romans 8:28-39; John 10:26-29).

Romans 10:1 is a popular verse Arminians use for proselytizing for heaven (Matt 23:15), because they always prefer a sound bite rather than find out the real sense of what Paul wrote. It is impossible that Paul desired those without God’s mercy to will and run for it (9:15-16)! But Paul, and us as well, should labor and endure opposition to see them converted to the truth. Paul had certain confident expectation that every one of the elect would surely be saved (8:28-39), thus his heart’s desire must be for something other than eternal life for these children of God.

And prayer to God~Prayer to God, coupled with his heart’s desire, indicates a matter yet uncertain by God’s blessing.​


He did not pray for an Israel to be saved from the lake of fire to heaven’s glory for several reasons. There was no possibility or uncertainty at all regarding the glorification of the elect (8:28-39). He had argued in no uncertain terms that eternal glory was God’s sovereign choice (9:6-24). He had declared, illustrated, and proved sovereign election of God’s children in such terms that there was no room for doubt or uncertainty that they would be saved and the rest could not be. There is not the slightest possibility Paul prayed against the Potter’s will and works (9:20-24). How and why would he pray for vessels of wrath God was enduring until the day of judgment? How and why would he pray for those fitted to destruction and unable to believe the gospel? How and why would he pray against decrees of God just like those under the O.T. (9:25-29)? But he could and would pray for elect Israel to be saved from stumbling over Christ (9:31-33)! Ordinary ministers pray for salvation not knowing God’s will, but this cannot be true of Paul. Paul knew God’s will intimately, especially in Jew-Gentile matters, and he had explained it. It is impossible he prayed contrary to God’s will he knew (2nd Corinthians 12:8-9; Ist John 5:14; Romans 8:27).

For Israel is.................​


The Israel here must be the Israel identified thus far in Paul’s argument – the elect Israel of God. Think! Is the wise and careful apostle burdened and praying for those that were not Israel (9:6)? It is a travesty of Bible interpretation to ignore Paul’s work so far and make this national Israel. Regarding election and reprobation within national Israel, Paul had declared it (9:6), illustrated it (9:7-13), proved it (9:14-24), confirmed it (9:25-29), and applied it to the gospel (9:30-33). Having made the distinction, Paul would not have tried to save those God purposed not to save! Depending on which Israel you make this determines which salvation you will then have to use. From the start, Paul had identified an elect Israel distinct from national Israel as his argument (9:6). As shown there, the issue was one of salvation as the children of God, not national blessings. With such a clear distinction declared, illustrated, proven, confirmed, and applied, we honor it. The following context of this verse proves it to be elect Israel as does the entire preceding context.

He formally testified that this Israel had a zeal of God, an important trait untrue of reprobates. If this zeal of God is subjective-genitive (God’s own zeal), they can only be elect Israelites. If this zeal of God is objective-genitive (their zeal for God), they can only be elect Israelites. If this is merely national Israel’s vain ceremonial worship, Paul made much of what John and Jesus condemned about the same people (Matthew 3:7-12; Mark 7:6-13; John 5:42; 8:44). Paul in other places condemned Jewish religion as vanity (Acts 13:46; Gal 6:13; Ist Thess. 2:14-16).

That they might be saved.​


The salvation here might occur, as it was only a possibility through Paul’s desire, prayer, and labor. God’s election is absolutely and eternally certain, and not a single elect can or will be lost, which Paul had established beyond any doubt before he addressed the issue of Israel (8:28-39). Nowhere in scripture do we read of a heart’s desire or prayer to God for election of any, which is God’s work alone, and Paul had already ascribed it to the will of the Potter alone (9:15-24). It is impossible Paul would desire or pray for a thing certain, especially eternal life for the elect.

As we shall see, conversion is the salvation here, and it varies greatly among the elect of God.

The ordo salutis of salvation has long been forgotten and overlooked by nearly all believers. God will infallibly save His elect through election, justification, regeneration, and glorification. The only salvation with any uncertainty is gospel conversion to the full knowledge of the truth. The only reason why we are on Chriustians forums!

Gospel conversion is the educational process by which a person learns what Jesus has done for him and what he can in turn do for Jesus – it is a lifelong matter of conforming to Jesus Christ.


Paul further described in the verses that follow that they need salvation from ignorance to truth. Paul testified that elect Israel had a zeal of God but without correct knowledge for it (10:2). Their ignorance of God’s righteousness in Christ left them merely seeking for their own (10:3). With proper knowledge, they could learn that Jesus Christ fulfilled and ended the Law (10:4). Leaving the impossibility of justification by Law works, they could rest in Christ’s work (10:5). The gospel of Christ only benefits believers (1:16-17), and Paul sought this for elect Israel.

Most foolishly assume that the word save in any form must refer to deliverance from the lake of fire which is the second death ~ so they miss any distinction or difference from this one and only concept of salvation they see.

Yet the Bible has many references to salvation, which means deliverance, from things other than the lake of fire

It is the gospel that brings us the glad tidings and glorious news of salvation with many benefits. The gospel saves the elect from ignorance to truth by knowledge (2nd Timothy 1:10; Ephesians 4:13-14). The gospel saves the elect to personal assurance of eternal life (Ist. Thess 1:4-7; Ist John 5:13). The gospel saves the elect to knowing what God requires of them (Acts 10:6; Ist Corinthians 11:1-2). The gospel saves the elect to fellowship with God and men (Ist John 1:1-5; Phil. 1:3-5; 2:1-2). The gospel saves the elect from God’s judgment for sin (Hebrews 12:6-8; Ist Corinthians 11:29-31; Rev. 3:5). The gospel saves the elect to peace and soul rest (Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:7-11; Romans 15:13). The gospel saves the elect to prosperity and success in life (Prov 3:1-4; Ps 1:1-3; Matt 10:39), etc., etc.

The next 12 verses will be just one post~since the foundation has been laid.
 
Sir, the only sense I can agree on universalism, in the sense which the God of heaven teaches, universalism~God so loved the world, that is, Jews and Gentiles, and among these, he has an elect people from among each.
I'm sorry to inform you but I did not say "universalism". I said "universals" as in common, all-inclusive, worldwide as opposed to a particular scenario which is what Isaiah 44:9-20 (graven image worshipers) and Rom 11:32 (Jews) are talking about. Romans 10:8-13 is talking about everyone and anyone in that we have all been blessed with the ability to receive faith by hearing the word of God. And that's before any mention of regeneration. Therefore, please comment on Rom 10:8-13 from that point of view, not from a universalism point of view.

In the meantime, I'll start commenting about John 1:10-13 and then I'll select a set of verses for you to comment on.
 
Sir, to say you are confused would be an understatement, with this statement no pun intended, no more then to get your attention.

Faith indeed comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God ~ no dispute on that point from me. But the word of God teaches that the power , or right, to believe must first be given, or else, no man can have his faith increase by reading, or, hearing the word of God. Listen carefully to John's teaching on this very subject.
Power obviously comes from the word of God. Look no further than that. No need to go on a wild goose chase. See Heb 4:12.

(Heb 4:12) For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Let us carefully consider these verses.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He was in the world~What a terrible indictment of humanity for their blind ignorance of God’s Son. The Word was in the world in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The eternal, unbegotten God that created all things visited and dwelt on earth. This is the first and maybe greatest fact of the mystery of godliness (Isr Timothy 3:16).

And the world was made by him~Every creature, rational and irrational and inanimate, had been created by Him. The whole sphere of earthly existence for men had been created by the Messiah. How can rational creatures living on this earth ignore and reject their Creator? Is it even possible to imagine a comparison in our minds of this great calamity?

And the world knew him not~This is incredible to consider ~ that worldly men had no idea of God on earth. But some did know, love, obey, and die for Christ … were they in the world? There have been men that have known God from Abel right down to Anna.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

He came unto his own~He came to Jews, the lost sheep of Israel, and not to others (Matthew 15:24; 10:6). From prophecy to reality, the virgin-born Son of God was from Israel (Galatians 4:4). The apostles understood this priority from prophecy (Acts 3:25-26; Romans 9:5). Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision, the Jews of Israel (Romans 15:8). The intent had always been to raise up a Saviour in Israel (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6-7; etc.).

And his own received him not~Though the Messiah was sent to Israel, they did not receive their own Saviour. In spite of prophets, prophecies, apostles, they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. The ox knows its owner and the *** its master’s crib, but Israel did not know the arrival of Jesus Christ, even with a multitude of stupendous signs (Isaiah 1:3). Even His own brothers did not believe on Him until His resurrection (John 7:5). This was a proper and righteous judgment on a wicked nation (John 12:37-41). Be ready always to divide words – many of His own did receive Him (John 1:12).

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

But as many as received him~Rejoice in the inspired disjunctive ~ but ~ for the light of life made a difference. In spite of the previous verse stating that His own received Him not, some did. Natural man cannot and will not receive Christ. (Ist Corinthians 2:14). To receive Christ is to believe on Him as Son of God; see last clause of 1:12. To receive Christ is to accept and believe His doctrine and duties (Col 2:5-9).

To them gave he power to become the sons of God~Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, gave power to some to become God’s sons. Those that received Jesus had His power change them to become His sons. Those that received Jesus were given authority, privilege, right of His sons.

What is the order? Receive Christ or become God’s sons? What is the order? There is no proof thus far, for both verbs are past tense ~ received and gave. The priority or timing of actions is determined by one thing ~ verb tenses. The order of verbs matters little, especially when context declares priority. How did you become the child of your parents? By what process did it occur? They generated and procreated you by a choice of lovemaking to conceive! In the same way you become God’s Son, by His loving choice to regenerate! We are no more involved in your second birth than we were in our first.

Even to them that believe on his name~Even. adverb. Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Also in 16-17th century (hence still archaic after Bible use) serving to introduce an epexegesis; = ‘namely’, ‘that is to say’. Compare Bible usage in John 8:41; 15:26; I Co 15:24.

It is italicized because the KJV translators honestly admitted interpolation. Do we trust italicized words? Jesus argued from one (Mat 22:31-32; Exodus 3:6).

Believe is present tense. What happened to ‘d’ to lose the context’s past tense? We trust the word of God at the word level, even for one letter (Galatians 3:16). John shifted from a past tense historical narrative to believers in the present. The difference of a single letter makes a big difference and agrees with 1:13. Now we have priority by verb tenses … He gave power to those that believe. The order and priority of salvation is His power in regeneration before faith.

This precious verse is not a complete sentence and does not end with a period. It is heresy to memorize and preach this verse while ignoring its second half~but, many do.

Arminians could not care less about what follows, for they totally reject it. They adore their manmade heresy of decisional regeneration against 1:13.
The question is who is "them"? Who are "them" who received power to become sons of God? What is the antecedent of the pronoun "them"? It is obviously "as many as received him". Basic English 101.

It's the same thing in the Greek. What is the antecedent of αὐτοῖς? It is ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν (as many received Him).

(John 1:12) ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Which were born~verse 13 is God's commentary on verse 12~

When were they born – based on actual verb tenses – rather than order of verbs? The phrase were born is a plural number, passive voice, present-perfect verb tense, demanding the action was finished, or perfected, before the present. Rejoice in the grammar of regeneration, which demands birth before faith. Of course they were born naturally before faith, but this is being born again. Let it be settled once and for all time, regeneration always precedes faith.

Not of blood~Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with natural descent, pedigree, etc. Most have no problem with this part.
.
Nor of the will of the flesh~Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with your natural will or choice. This phrase condemns the decisional regeneration heresy of Arminian. These babblers will do anything to elicit a choice by the flesh to get saved. They talk ad nauseam about the simplicity of getting yourself born again. Prior to being born again, all you have is a flesh nature that is denied here. Not only is the will of the flesh denied, but it is impossible for it to so will. A man in the flesh cannot and will not please God; he is a depraved rebel. God’s compassion and mercy are by His own will, not man’s (Romans 9:15-16). If you ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in you (Phil 2:12-13). Only God’s will is active (John 3:8; 5:21; Ephesians 1:5; James 1:18; Hebrews 10:9-10).

What is the will of the flesh that is rejected here as the means of regeneration? You have two natures – one by first birth and one by spiritual birth (Jn 3:6). The will of the flesh is all you have before regeneration – the sinful you. Therefore, this phrase denies any choice or act of will before regeneration! Until you are born again, this is the only will you have – that of the flesh. Paul denied that anything you do in the flesh can please God (Romans 8:7-8).

Nor of the will of man~Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with the will of anyone outside you. This phrase condemns parental efforts to save infants as in Roman Catholicism. There is nothing a parent can do to assist or cooperate for salvation (Ps 49:6-9). No other man has any influence on you being born again, except for One Man! The work of salvation is all found in one man’s obedience (Rom 5:12-19). There is no place for parents, pastors, priests, or soul winners for eternal life. In Him was life! He is the Life! He is resurrection and life! He has the keys!

But of God~Becoming God’s son by being born again is His monergistic, sovereign work. John called it being born again from Jesus (John 3:1-8; I John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-5,18). Paul used quickening (Ephesians 2:1-3; Col 2:13), regeneration, renewing (Titus 3:5). This creative work by God’s power gives each elect person a new spiritual man. We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Eph 2:10).

Coming back to consider Romans 10:1-13
Verse 13 is talking about regeneration which is after verse 12 where they received Him. Therefore the receiving of Him through Faith (verse 12) clearly happens before Regeneration (verse 13).

After you comment on Rom 10:8-13, we can go into 2 Th 2:13 that clearing demonstrates that election onto salvation is conditional on our belief of the Truth (Christ).

(2 Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
 
I'm sorry to inform you but I did not say "universalism". I said "universals" as in common, all-inclusive, worldwide as opposed to a particular scenario which is what Isaiah 44:9-20 (graven image worshipers) and Rom 11:32 (Jews) are talking about. Romans 10:8-13 is talking about everyone and anyone in that we have all been blessed with the ability to receive faith by hearing the word of God. And that's before any mention of regeneration. Therefore, please comment on Rom 10:8-13 from that point of view, not from a universalism point of view.

In the meantime, I'll start commenting about John 1:10-13 and then I'll select a set of verses for you to comment on.
Actually, I only said a word or two on that point anyway~I'm going to Romans 8-13 ~ but Romans 10:1-9 comes before those scriptures and we will add~one must understand what Paul is saying what he said before you get to verses 13-17, which will give us the proper interpretation to each verse as we work our way down from one to verse 17.
 
Power obviously comes from the word of God. Look no further than that. No need to go on a wild goose chase. See Heb 4:12.

(Heb 4:12) For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Sir, I may according to you go on a wild goose chase, but at least I know what a goose is~you quoting Hebrews 4:12 and applying the word of God the the written word of God is showing me you better not go on goose chasing you might just meet a bear!
Now, you tell me what is the word of God in Hebrews 4? That's why we read the words of the context carefully to get the true biblical meaning from each context we are reading. I do not want to meet a bear when chasing goose as you said I was doing, but, truly I was not, I know what I'm going after, maybe you do not, but we shall see.
The question is who is "them"? Who are "them" who received power to become sons of God? What is the antecedent of the pronoun "them"? It is obviously "as many as received him"
No problem........... John's gospel was given to us to show us that faith is evidence of those born of God. So many scriptures we could go to, but for now, John 5:24 is one very close by and one of the best to consider.
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The verb tense shows us that faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the means of one to be born again. If one can hear and believe then that person already has everlasting life per Jesus Christ. If one can hear and believe, then that person has already past from death spiritually speaking unto life eternal by the same power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead!

Verse 13 is talking about regeneration which is after verse 12 where they received Him. Therefore the receiving of Him through Faith (verse 12) clearly happens before Regeneration (verse 13).
Maybe you did not hear me above, when I said~"John 1:13 is God's commentary on verse 12"~Besides, John 1:13 clearly condemns your position the the new birth is not by the will of the flesh! Can you not hear that? I do not think you can.

Yes, v13 is after v12, but it does not support what you want others to believe. Is that as deep as you can go? Pitiful! but, that's what folks deserve when they reject God's truths.
After you comment on Rom 10:8-13, we can go into 2 Th 2:13 that clearing demonstrates that election onto salvation is conditional on our belief of the Truth (Christ).

(2 Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
Would love to go there...warning....warning....there may be a bear there waiting on you!
 
Sir, I may according to you go on a wild goose chase, but at least I know what a goose is~you quoting Hebrews 4:12 and applying the word of God the the written word of God is showing me you better not go on goose chasing you might just meet a bear!

Now, you tell me what is the word of God in Hebrews 4? That's why we read the words of the context carefully to get the true biblical meaning from each context we are reading. I do not want to meet a bear when chasing goose as you said I was doing, but, truly I was not, I know what I'm going after, maybe you do not, but we shall see.

No problem........... John's gospel was given to us to show us that faith is evidence of those born of God. So many scriptures we could go to, but for now, John 5:24 is one very close by and one of the best to consider.
.

The verb tense shows us that faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the means of one to be born again. If one can hear and believe then that person already has everlasting life per Jesus Christ. If one can hear and believe, then that person has already past from death spiritually speaking unto life eternal by the same power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead!


Maybe you did not hear me above, when I said~"John 1:13 is God's commentary on verse 12"~Besides, John 1:13 clearly condemns your position the the new birth is not by the will of the flesh! Can you not hear that? I do not think you can.

Yes, v13 is after v12, but it does not support what you want others to believe. Is that as deep as you can go? Pitiful! but, that's what folks deserve when they reject God's truths.

Would love to go there...warning....warning....there may be a bear there waiting on you!
or a T-Rex that devours yogi bear :)
 
Sir, to say you are confused would be an understatement, with this statement no pun intended, no more then to get your attention.

I've never found him to be confused about anything. Why such nonsense claims from you?

I could list dozens of reasons why you're obviously confused. As long as you continue to do this, I will most certainly do just that.

Faith indeed comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God ~ no dispute on that point from me. But the word of God teaches that the power , or right, to believe must first be given, or else, no man can have his faith increase by reading, or, hearing the word of God. Listen carefully to John's teaching on this very subject.

I'll leave off the "sir" part. "Sir" obviously has no value to you. To say you are confused would be an understatement.

Have you learned through reading?

I'll start slow. Do you need to understand any language to be saved? Simple question. Treat it as such. Your claims are self defeating.
 
or a T-Rex that devours yogi bear :)
We shall see.

I've never found him to be confused about anything. Why such nonsense claims from you?
Of course you would not, but, who are you? God's word is the final judge, not you, me, or him.

If you desire to discuss scriptures, then do so, if not, then I truly have nothing to say to you, and your vain jangling.

1st Timothy 1:6​


“From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;”
 
We shall see.


Of course you would not, but, who are you? God's word is the final judge, not you, me, or him.

If you desire to discuss scriptures then do so, if not, then I truly have nothing to say to you, and your vain jaining.

You're rambling and using "sir" was a weapon. Till you stop this, I will continue. Don't pretend you're better than others. We are all men. We have our issues. You have no more authority nor privilege than any of us.

I'll ask again.

Do you need to understand any language to be saved? Simple question. Treat it as such. Your claims are self defeating.
 
You're rambling and using "sir" was a weapon. Till you stop this, I will continue. Don't pretend you're better than others. We are all men. We have our issues. You have no more authority nor privilege than any of us.

I'll ask again.

Do you need to understand any language to be saved? Simple question. Treat it as such. Your claims are self defeating.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God/Christ.

So the answer is yes- one must hear the gospel to be saved. The message of Christ though Gods word- Scripture. One must believe the gospel. Jesus sent them out preaching the gospel in the Great Commission. Matthew 28:18-20.

Peter even said Pauls letters were the very word of God- Scripture. They knew they were writing Gods word.
 
Sir, I may according to you go on a wild goose chase, but at least I know what a goose is~you quoting Hebrews 4:12 and applying the word of God the the written word of God is showing me you better not go on goose chasing you might just meet a bear!

Now, you tell me what is the word of God in Hebrews 4? That's why we read the words of the context carefully to get the true biblical meaning from each context we are reading. I do not want to meet a bear when chasing goose as you said I was doing, but, truly I was not, I know what I'm going after, maybe you do not, but we shall see.
I see that Rom 10:8-13 is proving itself to be quite a bear for you since you still haven't commented on it. You are cautiously commenting about verses around it but you still haven't said anything directly about it. Think well and hard about it.
No problem........... John's gospel was given to us to show us that faith is evidence of those born of God. So many scriptures we could go to, but for now, John 5:24 is one very close by and one of the best to consider.
Another excellent verse that declares that he who hears His word and believes in Him has everlasting life. It says nothing about anyone who has yet to believe but has been regenerated which is your position. The passage proves that everlasting life is conditional on belief in Christ.
The verb tense shows us that faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the means of one to be born again. If one can hear and believe then that person already has everlasting life per Jesus Christ. If one can hear and believe, then that person has already past from death spiritually speaking unto life eternal by the same power that resurrected Jesus Christ from the dead!
You are forgetting the power of the word of God that we just talked about. You dismiss that power and go in a wild goose chase trying to make up for it with regeneration.
Maybe you did not hear me above, when I said~"John 1:13 is God's commentary on verse 12"~Besides, John 1:13 clearly condemns your position the the new birth is not by the will of the flesh! Can you not hear that? I do not think you can.
I never said that the new birth is "by the will of the flesh". In your desperation you are making up fictional scenarios.
Yes, v13 is after v12, but it does not support what you want others to believe. Is that as deep as you can go? Pitiful! but, that's what folks deserve when they reject God's truths.
Basic English 101 understanding of Pronouns and Antecedents is needed here for Verse 12. The "them" (Pronoun) who received power to become sons of God are the "many as received him" (Antecedent). IOW, those who received Him received power to become sons of God. With Him, belief in Him, comes His power. Basic English 101.
Would love to go there...warning....warning....there may be a bear there waiting on you!
You're counting your eggs before they hatch.
 
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God/Christ.

So the answer is yes- one must hear the gospel to be saved. The message of Christ though Gods word- Scripture. One must believe the gospel. Jesus sent them out preaching the gospel in the Great Commission. Matthew 28:18-20.

Peter even said Pauls letters were the very word of God- Scripture. They knew they were writing Gods word.

Faith does not come only by hearing the Gospel. You left out half the verse. Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but hearing comes by the word of Christ. If Christ hasn't given you hearing, you won't really hear the Gospel. The Gospel will just be a bunch of words.
 
Faith does not come only by hearing the Gospel. You left out half the verse. Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but hearing comes by the word of Christ. If Christ hasn't given you hearing, you won't really hear the Gospel. The Gospel will just be a bunch of words.
The gospel is the word of Christ/God- They are one in the same word. The Word of the Lord, the Word of God, the Word of Christ are synonymous terms in scripture, they are interchangeable.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Psalms 119:160
All your words
are true;
all your righteous laws are eternal.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades,
But the word of our God stands forever.

Acts 13:44-50
And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us,

'I have placed You as a light for the Gentiles,
That You should bring salvation to the end of the earth.'"

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

The word of the Lord(Jesus) is the word of God. More proof Jesus is God in Acts.

The word of the Lord, the word of Christ is the same as the word of God. The word of the Lord(Jesus) was spread throughout the book of Acts as the very word of God and they are used interchangeably in Acts. Below we see the word of the Lord = Jesus words are the very words of God. This can be said of no mere man but only a man who is also God as Scripture declares about Christ.

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you,

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 3:1-3

Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

1 Peter 1:23-25
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord stands forever."

And this is the word that was preached to you.


Conclusion: The word of God, the word of the Lord, the word of Christ have the exact/identical meaning.

hope this helps !!!
 
Faith does not come only by hearing the Gospel. You left out half the verse. Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but hearing comes by the word of Christ. If Christ hasn't given you hearing, you won't really hear the Gospel. The Gospel will just be a bunch of words.

You're not applying it properly relative to what the verse actually says....

"hearing comes by the word of Christ"

Isn't this what you said above?

Understanding comes from the words of Christ themselves. You're ignoring this clear fact to "insert" your own personal belief that these "plain" words can't be understood.

We know this isn't true from the very words you're quoting.
 
Faith does not come only by hearing the Gospel. You left out half the verse. Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but hearing comes by the word of Christ. If Christ hasn't given you hearing, you won't really hear the Gospel. The Gospel will just be a bunch of words.
No mention of regeneration in your words. You mentioned the Gospel, the word of God, but no Holy Spirit Regeneration. Excellent! Therefore belief in Christ preceedes eventual Regeneration. Thank you for making my case.
 
No mention of regeneration in your words. Excellent! Therefore belief in Christ preceedes eventual Regeneration. Thank you for making my case.

I wonder why the crowd murdered Stephen if they didn't understand what Stephen was saying to them....

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive, effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, cutting to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints from marrows, astutely judging the thoughts and intents of our human heart.​

 
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