What is regeneration?

[civic]

The new birth and the gospel.


Born of Water John 3

John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.

The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.

The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in the new birth God is the Active One and the one who causes the birth but we must believe to be saved, regenerated.

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom, believing and not believing

summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again, regeneration )

Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.

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hope this helps !!!

 

[Red Baker]

Brother, thanks! I'll take a short break and come back and post.

 

[civic]

A few more scriptures on the topic of this discussion

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

 

[Rockson]

Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period.

Yeah and it is one of the key points here.....FURTURE tense. Our Calvinists friends are quick to quote in such verses how God will give ones' the capacity to walk in his ways but for them to acknowledge God said it will be future goes contrary to what they believe about OT saints and times. They'd be better off staying with what the Bible actually says that the regeneration would be future (that is for OT saints)

 

[Red Baker]

John 3:1-9~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

To scripturally understand the nature of the new birth, or to be born again, we must consider this discourse between the Lord Jesus, and Nicodemus, a master in Israel at the time of Christ. Even though a master in Israel, this poor man, knew little of one of the most important teachings of the word of God, which is not uncommon, even more so in our own day does ignorance rules in the churches of professing believers.

I have taught what I'm going to say, many times over since God first begin to reveal this portion of scriptures to me as far back as the late seventies among the Independent Baptist churches, I once was part of when I first came to Christ; and over the years have been able to fine tune it, to where I'm now at ~ to a point I believe what we will say, is as close as I can get to the truth in these few verses supported by other scriptures throughout God's word. Please consider:

John 3:1,2~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him."

Context is so important when considering thsi discourse, and following carefully the exchanged of words between Nicodemus and Jesus.

Why Nicodemus came by night truly means little as to the understanding of this discourse, so, we will say nothing more on this point.

The words that Nicodemus said have a major impact of understanding this discourse and the nature of the new birth.

Please consider the confession of Nicodemus, the Pharisees:

Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God:

NIcodemus' confession was not the typical confession of the Pharisees overall, most of them accused Christ of being demon possessed and his miracles done by the prince of the devil.

Matthew 12:24-27~"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."

Nicodemus added:

for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

This confession which Nicodemus made, is a powerful as any child of God could give! There is no weakness or like of faith in his confession, we must admit. I couldn't give a more truthful confession, and neither can my readers. It truly was a humble confession, a child like confession. But, most importantly it was acknowledged by Christ to be a genuine confession of faith, for hear the Lord's replied back to him:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Do we truly hear what the Lord is saying to Nicodemus? I think not, unless we understand the Lord saying this: "Truly, truly, except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"~yet, Nicodemus did see, and his confession proved that he did see!

So, up to point in this discourse the doctrine herein taught is this: regeneration precedes faith. NIcodemus had faith, yet his understanding of truth was much to be desired as we shall see.

This portion of the word of God has been so abuse by so many men, even good men who just parrot others teachings. This precious discourse was given to us for one reason and one reason only, to teach us that regeneration (giving of spiritual life) must proceed works on man's part, even faith. We know faith has no part in regeneration, since Nicodemus' faith was so weak and without very much understanding, even though a master in Israel.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus without question used the words born again, based on Nicodemus' question back to him.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus' words back to Nicodemus: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit~~to be born of water is to be born from our mother's womb in our natural birth which is being born of flesh. Jesus would have never mentioned water, if Nicodemus had not mentioned entering into his Mother's womb the second time and be born. Water is never mentioned again when our Lord explains the new birth.

I'll come back and finish keep this from bering to long.

 

[Red Baker]

Yeah and it is one of the key points here.....FURTURE tense. Our Calvinists friends are quick to quote in such verses how God will give ones' the capacity to walk in his ways but for them to acknowledge God said it will be future goes contrary to what they believe about OT saints and times. They'd be better off staying with what the Bible actually says that the regeneration would be future (that is for OT saints)

Brother, are you real sure about no one born again before Acts 2? How sure?

Later....RB

 

[civic]

John 3 the context, illustrations, text from the OT that he would be familiar with which Jesus points to for Nicodemus.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” ( notice belief precedes life )

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ( notice once again belief comes before life)17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Conclusion: Faith/Belief precedes life. John opens his gospel with belief preceding life ( John 1:12-13 and ends the gospel with the same John 20:31 ) Jesus teaches the same in John 3.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Brother, are you real sure about no one born again before Acts 2? How sure?

Later....RB

100 % sure.

 

[civic]

Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.

Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?

Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”

Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

Conclusion: Faith/Belief precedes life. John opens his gospel with belief preceding life ( John 1:12-13 and ends the gospel with the same John 20:31 ) Jesus teaches the same in John 3.

Life comes before believing, believing is an spiritual activity. One comes to Christ believing after God draws him Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Drawing is regeneration, so it can read:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me regenerates him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[civic]

@civic



Life comes before believing, believing is an spiritual activity. One comes to Christ believing after God draws him Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Drawing is regeneration, so it can read:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me regenerates him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Nope conflating draw and regenerate, not even close to being the same .

PS your solitary verse doesn’t trump the 3 dozen I posted that contradict your false interpretation of John 6:44.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Nope conflating draw and regenerate, not even close to being the same .

PS your solitary verse doesn’t trump the 3 dozen I posted that contradict your false interpretation of John 6:44.

hope this helps !!!

Yes they are the same. Drawing and regeneration, prior to that, no man can come to Christ or believe on Him

 

[civic]

Yes they are the same. Drawing and regeneration, prior to that, no man can come to Christ or believe on Him

Nope the disciples were drawn and unregenerate.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Nope the disciples were drawn and unregenerate.

Hope this helps !!!

The disciples were included in the no man in Jn 6:44 it doesnt say

44 No man[except the disciples] can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Studyman]

No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

Oh Civic, I know this is another popular religious philosophy of this world you have adopted and are now promoting, but it just isn't truth according to Scriptures.

Listen to the Words of the Christ of the Bible here.

John 3: 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

If your religious philosophy is true, then how could Nicodemus have even known since you preach no one could have known until after Jesus was murdered, and raised from the dead? Paul said God showed them.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

What does Is. 56 and 58 say? "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Is this not the NEW Man?"

17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4, OT Scriptures) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; "for God hath shewed it unto them".

Shall I not listen to God in these matters?

Consider Caleb.

Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, "because he had another spirit with him", and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and "a new spirit": for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

How is this not the Gospel of Christ Civic? How is this not the Spirit Jesus Promised, the Spirit that also came onto those obedient Servants of God in the Acts Pentecost? What does Peter Himself teach? Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Did Caleb and Joshua obey God? How can you preach they were not given the Spirit of God as Peter also come to know? Zacharias, did he obey God?

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How can you preach, given all these truths, that NO ONE received God's Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Or that the Gospel of Christ didn't exist before Pentecost.

Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

How can you preach that Caleb was not given the Gospel of Christ, and mixed it with Faith? What Spirit was on Caleb, if not God's Holy Spirit?

You statement

Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

Might have been true for the lost sinners who existed in Jerusalem that Jesus chose as servants to further His Gospel that the Pharisees and Scribes had corrupted. But to preach that God's Spirit didn't exist before Pentecost is foolishness at best, and the Scriptures I posted, and many more expose this teaching as another philosophy of man.

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

I will ask you a question. Is this the Same "Holy One of Israel, the Rock, who became Flesh and Blood? When HE was "up where HE was before", was HE Not Spirit?

You don't believe the Spirit on Caleb, was the same Spirit on Simeon, which was the same Spirit Jesus Promised the Disciples to help them after HE ascended to His Father?

Gosh Civic, I really hope you reconsider this religion you have adopted and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

I have been kind a quiet on your posts, I don't want to nag. But this one, gosh, I have to speak up if there is any Love in me at all.

I have more to say, I'll do it on another post.

 

[civic]

Oh Civic, I know this is another popular religious philosophy of this world you have adopted and are now promoting, but it just isn't truth according to Scriptures.

Listen to the Words of the Christ of the Bible here.

John 3: 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

If your religious philosophy is true, then how could Nicodemus have even known since you preach no one could have known until after Jesus was murdered, and raised from the dead? Paul said God showed them.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4, OT Scriptures) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; "for God hath shewed it unto them".

Shall I not listen to God in these matters?

Consider Caleb.

Num. 14: 22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, "because he had another spirit with him", and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and "a new spirit": for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

How is this not the Gospel of Christ Civic? How is this not the Spirit Jesus Promised, the Spirit that also came onto those obedient Servants of God in the Acts Pentecost? What does Peter Himself teach? Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Did Caleb and Joshua obey God? How can you preach they were not given the Spirit of God as Peter also come to know? Zacharias, did he obey God?

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How can you preach, given all these truths, that NO ONE received God's Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Or that the Gospel of Christ didn't exist before Pentecost.

Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

How can you preach that Caleb was not given the Gospel of Christ, and mixed it with Faith? What Spirit was on Caleb, if not God's Holy Spirit?

You statement


Might have been true for the lost sinners who existed in Jerusalem that Jesus chose as servants to further His Gospel that the Pharisees and Scribes had corrupted. But to preach that God's Spirit didn't exist before Pentecost is foolishness at best, and the Scriptures I posted, and many more expose this teaching as another philosophy of man.

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

I will ask you a question. Is this the Same "Holy One of Israel, the Rock, who became Flesh and Blood? When HE was "up where HE was before", was HE Not Spirit?

You don't believe the Spirit on Caleb, was the same Spirit on Simeon, which was the same Spirit Jesus Promised the Disciples to help them after HE ascended to His Father?

Gosh Civic, I really hope you reconsider this religion you have adopted and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

I have been kind a quiet on your posts, I don't want to nag. But this one, gosh, I have to speak up if there is any Love in me at all.

I have more to say, I'll do it on another post.

The new birth is not the same as the spirit that came upon prophets in the OT.

 

[Studyman]

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.

The Disciples didn't understand. But Zacharias did.

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (Who was told to Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee). How is this not Abraham putting on the New Man, being "Born again"? 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies (Is their enemies not death?) might serve him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

How is this not Zacharias understanding "And that "ye put on" the new man, which after God "is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Simeon understood.

Luke 2: 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. Are you teaching others that this Spirit of God is not the Helper Jesus Promised? That the Spirit on Simon is not the same Spirit of the Acts Pentecost?

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of "all people"; (Not just those born after the Acts Pentecost.) 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. (They didn't know like the Disciples didn't know) 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

I get that the Disciples didn't know, but that isn't because the knowledge wasn't given, it's because the only people who had the Oracles of God corrupted it. Israel was shown the Gospel of Christ, but they rejected it, because they didn't believe God, AKA, they had no Faith.

Anna also knew.

Luke 2: 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.


These people, the Wise men as well, knew and had Faith in the Christ before HE was even born. The Gospel message of being reborn is all through the Law and Prophets.

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How is this not the exact same Gospel, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[Studyman]

The new birth is not the same as the spirit that came upon prophets in the OT.

Was Zacharias, Simeon and Anna Prophets? Did you even read the post, and consider the scriptures posted therein?


You have no evidence from Scriptures to support your claim. "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all".

Your preaching this God and His Body and His Spirit didn't exist until after Jesus was murdered is popular, and perhaps a great marketing strategy for some of this world's religious businesses. But my friend, the Scriptures simply don't support it.

I would be a fool to ignore the Scriptures, just because you don't agree with them.

Nicodemus should have known, like Zacharias and Simeon did. Because as Paul teaches, but many don't believe "God has shown them".

A great topic though, certainly a good one for discussion.

Thanks Civic.

 

[civic]

Was Zacharias, Simeon and Anna Prophets? Did you even read the post, and consider the scriptures posted therein?


You have no evidence from Scriptures to support your claim. "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all".

Your preaching this God and His Body and His Spirit didn't exist until after Jesus was murdered is popular, and perhaps a great marketing strategy for some of this world's religious businesses. But my friend, the Scriptures simply don't support it.

I would be a fool to ignore the Scriptures, just because you don't agree with them.

Nicodemus should have known, like Zacharias and Simeon did. Because as Paul teaches, but many don't believe "God has shown them".

A great topic though, certainly a good one for discussion.

Thanks Civic.

I’m heading to the golf ️ course I’ll be back later

I need to get my 8 Miles of walking in today as my exercise plan