Wages of Sin is Death NOT ECT
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civic
Well-known member
The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
hope this helps !!!
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
This paganism argument is the EXACT same logic you use to discredit PSA.
Why wouldn't you accept it here?
civic
Well-known member
Read the dozens of scriptures I quoted from Jesus and the apostles affirming eternal conscious torment for the wicked. Why would you call Jesus and the apostles pagan ?
That’s blasphemy
Diserner
Well-known member
Because you have put the Paganism argument over plain Scriptures like "the law brings wrath" and "Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust."
Paganism has trumped all Biblical consideration for you, why should it stop now for some random reason?
Brakelite
Active member
There was only one scripture that mentioned torment... Revelation 20:10. And there is an explanation why for ever and ever does not mean eternal, but until it finishes. The other scriptures you quoted are a variety of texts coming from a variety of contexts. Not one of them mentioned eternal torment.
Some mentioned eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire according to Jude.
The ones that did mention fire didn't mention people being in that fire.
The fact that the fire in one instance couldn't be put out, did not nullify the possibility of the fire going out of its own accord when it runs out of fuel. Many natural forest fires are like that, despite the best efforts of fire fighters, the fire grows until they're nothing left to burn, or the wind changes, or it rains. Again, nothing about people in those fires burning forever.
Yes, there are scriptures that affirm the wicked are cast into fire. There are also scriptures which you ignore that state those same wicked being destroyed utterly by that very same fire.
You say a poster is blaspheming in suggesting Jesus and the disciples are pagan. That's not what he was saying, and you know it. But what you are saying is far worse. You are suggesting, as does every fan of ECT, that God deliberately keeps sinners alive for the sole purpose of inflicting pain and suffering. If that is your view of God, that is a greater insult than calling them pagan. No pagan would even dream of having that power. Except Satan himself. Even the worst of human dictators couldn't come close to matching that kind of cruelty and suffering. In fact, people like Stalin who murdered millions through starvation, by comparison to ECT, were downright merciful.
ECT is a terrible accusation against the character of God. Deplorable.
And this translation is utterly illogical, unjust, and insane. That before the wicked are even judged, they are punished? Where in scripture does it even hint that such is so? Why would you believe such a concept? A God so good, so merciful, so desirous that men should repent rather than die, died Himself in order that man may live, is a God Who finds satisfaction and justice in tormenting sinners without as much as a trial and a hearing? What a travesty!
Whoever the God is you are worshipping, it isn't the God of the Bible.
Your first mistake is in believing sinners are immortal.
Diserner
Well-known member
This is the exact same logic he uses against PSA.
PSA and ECT stand and fall together.
civic
Well-known member
Conflating again I see. They are not related. You can have one and not the other. Orthodox Church history is in my side on this once again as well as scripture. Your beliefs line up with JWs and other non Christian religions which are pagan in origin. Just like these religions you redefine words to suit your false teaching. Eternal in this case does not mean eternal, but temporal. You must also believe eternal life is not forever since its the same word used for punishment and life everlasting. Then with PSA you add to scripture wrath where it doesn't exist to support that false doctrine. And also make other words mean wrath when they don't by changing their meaning. For example punishment and suffering do not mean wrath. Its just more equivocating to support heretical doctrines.
PS- I believe this not your Calvinist pagan view of it. “Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust."
hope this helps !!!
Last edited:
civic
Well-known member
From Bible.org
1. Conditional Immortality. This theory is built on the error that all who do not receive everlasting life will die as the animals and be annihilated or wiped out of existence. It contends that immortality is conditional upon receiving the gift of everlasting life. If anyone dies not having the gift of everlasting life he shall not be punished with everlasting torment. He shall be annihilated.
2. Universalism. The universalistic theory holds the idea of universal redemption. For example, a certain number of Scripture references are used to prove that Christ died for all men alike. Therefore all men alike shall be saved in the end. Universalism uses such texts as Paul’s when he said: “We preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus” (Colossians 1:28). Certainly the Apostle could not have meant that he expected every man that ever came into the world to be made perfect in Christ. The words “every man” could refer only to those to whom Paul addressed his Epistle; namely, “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ” (1:2). This theory does not deny that all men are lost by sin, but it contends that all men will finally be saved and enter into everlasting life. Universalism falls when it overlooks the Biblical fact that salvation and everlasting life are applied to no one apart from his personal acceptance of it as a divinely bestowed gift to “whosoever will.”
3. The Restoration Theory. This view, called by some Restitutionism, appeals to the universalist in that it does not deny that all men are lost, but that sometime, somewhere, all creation (including Satan and the fallen angels) will be restored or reconciled to God. Being contrary to reason and common sense, the average person labels this view as preposterous. But let us look at two texts that are used to form the basis of the false view of Restitutionism. The words of our Lord are quoted: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me” (John 12:32). We must exercise care that these words of Christ do not lead us to believe the heretical teaching of Restitutionism. Our Saviour never meant that all men finally shall be saved by His crucifixion. Dr. A. C. Gaebelein in his commentary on “The Gospel of John” says: “The analogy of other texts shows plainly that the only reasonable sense is, that Christ’s crucifixion would have a ‘drawing’ influence on men of all nations, Gentiles as well as Jews.” But it is quite possible also that this verse has a future application. In the preceding verse (31) which was given in connection with verse thirty-two, Jesus spoke of the future when “the prince of this world shall be cast out.” Of a truth, in that day “all men” will be drawn unto Him.
Another favorite text used by the Restitutionists is one of Peter’s statements given in his second sermon after Pentecost. The Apostle said:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21).
Again the teachers of this false doctrine have seized upon a phrase and have deliberately torn it from its context to make it fit their scheme of thought. The phrase “restitution of all things” cannot be interpreted correctly if applied to any other than the house of Israel. Remember, it is to Israel that Peter is addressing his message. His introductory statement was: “Ye men of Israel” (vs. 12). It is the restitution of all things for Israel when Christ comes to restore the nation to which the apostle is referring. Furthermore, it is to be the “restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets.” Immediately we are limited in defining Peter’s statement, for we must confine it to the restitution (or restoration) of which the prophets spoke. Frequently the prophets wrote of the restoration of Israel to the land of Palestine, but nowhere in the prophetic writings have we ever come across so much as an inference that the wicked dead ever will be saved.
Restitutionism depends largely upon that mighty statement uttered by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 2:10, 11, “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” This passage means that all creation, whether animate or inanimate, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, will confess (or publicly declare) and thereby agree to the testimony that God the Father has given of His Son. There is not the slightest indication that all men who acknowledge the authority of Christ must be saved or that they will be saved. While our Lord was here on earth the demons frequently acknowledge His authority (see Mark 1:24, 34; 3:11, 12), and we know that everlasting fire is prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
The natural and inevitable consequence of sin is punishment. Proper punishment of a child does not derogate from the love of the parent. Sin condemns just as sure as fire burns, and God is justified in putting into effect the immortal law that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” (Galatians 6:8).
Notice the use of the word “fire,” which denotes that the fire of Hell is as literal as the place itself. Repeatedly our Lord and the apostles spoke of the fire of Hell.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22).
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matthew 7:19).
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41, 42).
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (Matthew 18:8, 9).
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44).
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame (Luke 16:24).
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (Jude 6, 7).
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10).
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her (Revelation 18:8).
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone (Revelation 19:20).
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 20:10).
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, 15).
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
You may study these statements and believe them, or else you may pass them by. You may believe that the Bible is for today, or else you may laugh at it as a bit of obsolete dogma. But today you are face to face with eternal statements in the Word of God which will survive the heavens and the earth. Your unbelief cannot disprove nor alter them. When the resurrected physical bodies of the unbelievers of every age leave the Judgment of the Great White Throne, they will go into a literal Hell of fire.
And be sure that the body will share with the soul in its suffering. Jesus said: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29). May we ask what part of man is in the grave? We all agree that it is his body. Therefore we can depend on Christ’s statement that that part of man that is buried in the grave will come forth to be damned eternally.
It is clear that Hell is not in this earth. The Apostle Peter speaks of the day when the earth is to be dissolved by fire:
The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.... Nevertheless we, according to His promise look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:10-13).
We are not persisting in this view of the geographical location of Hell, for the Bible gives us no positive declarative statement of its situation. Where this outer darkness is, where the endless fire is, where Hell is we do not know, nor must we know. It is sufficient to say that Hell is a prepared place, and experientially it is at the end of every unsaved sinner’s life.
Come sinners, seek His grace
Whose wrath ye cannot bear;
Flee to the shelter of His cross,
And find salvation there.
False Theories
Many conflicting theories have been formed regarding this subject. Of course, those mentioned under the above heading are human theories that have not the support of the Word of God. Here we can do little more than make a passing reference to these man-made ideas These are Conditional Immortality, Universalism and The Restoration Theory.1. Conditional Immortality. This theory is built on the error that all who do not receive everlasting life will die as the animals and be annihilated or wiped out of existence. It contends that immortality is conditional upon receiving the gift of everlasting life. If anyone dies not having the gift of everlasting life he shall not be punished with everlasting torment. He shall be annihilated.
2. Universalism. The universalistic theory holds the idea of universal redemption. For example, a certain number of Scripture references are used to prove that Christ died for all men alike. Therefore all men alike shall be saved in the end. Universalism uses such texts as Paul’s when he said: “We preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus” (Colossians 1:28). Certainly the Apostle could not have meant that he expected every man that ever came into the world to be made perfect in Christ. The words “every man” could refer only to those to whom Paul addressed his Epistle; namely, “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ” (1:2). This theory does not deny that all men are lost by sin, but it contends that all men will finally be saved and enter into everlasting life. Universalism falls when it overlooks the Biblical fact that salvation and everlasting life are applied to no one apart from his personal acceptance of it as a divinely bestowed gift to “whosoever will.”
3. The Restoration Theory. This view, called by some Restitutionism, appeals to the universalist in that it does not deny that all men are lost, but that sometime, somewhere, all creation (including Satan and the fallen angels) will be restored or reconciled to God. Being contrary to reason and common sense, the average person labels this view as preposterous. But let us look at two texts that are used to form the basis of the false view of Restitutionism. The words of our Lord are quoted: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me” (John 12:32). We must exercise care that these words of Christ do not lead us to believe the heretical teaching of Restitutionism. Our Saviour never meant that all men finally shall be saved by His crucifixion. Dr. A. C. Gaebelein in his commentary on “The Gospel of John” says: “The analogy of other texts shows plainly that the only reasonable sense is, that Christ’s crucifixion would have a ‘drawing’ influence on men of all nations, Gentiles as well as Jews.” But it is quite possible also that this verse has a future application. In the preceding verse (31) which was given in connection with verse thirty-two, Jesus spoke of the future when “the prince of this world shall be cast out.” Of a truth, in that day “all men” will be drawn unto Him.
Another favorite text used by the Restitutionists is one of Peter’s statements given in his second sermon after Pentecost. The Apostle said:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21).
Again the teachers of this false doctrine have seized upon a phrase and have deliberately torn it from its context to make it fit their scheme of thought. The phrase “restitution of all things” cannot be interpreted correctly if applied to any other than the house of Israel. Remember, it is to Israel that Peter is addressing his message. His introductory statement was: “Ye men of Israel” (vs. 12). It is the restitution of all things for Israel when Christ comes to restore the nation to which the apostle is referring. Furthermore, it is to be the “restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets.” Immediately we are limited in defining Peter’s statement, for we must confine it to the restitution (or restoration) of which the prophets spoke. Frequently the prophets wrote of the restoration of Israel to the land of Palestine, but nowhere in the prophetic writings have we ever come across so much as an inference that the wicked dead ever will be saved.
Restitutionism depends largely upon that mighty statement uttered by the Apostle Paul in Philippians 2:10, 11, “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” This passage means that all creation, whether animate or inanimate, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, will confess (or publicly declare) and thereby agree to the testimony that God the Father has given of His Son. There is not the slightest indication that all men who acknowledge the authority of Christ must be saved or that they will be saved. While our Lord was here on earth the demons frequently acknowledge His authority (see Mark 1:24, 34; 3:11, 12), and we know that everlasting fire is prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
Arguing Against Hell from the Love of God
We hear it said often that God is too tender, kind, and forgiving to allow men to suffer in Hell. Pleading the love and pity of God, men insist that He would not allow His creatures to perish. There are many beautiful and sentimental sayings about the love of God that are quoted to support the view that He would not allow one soul to suffer torment in eternity. But we dare never lose sight of the fact that one’s escape from Hell is not dependent upon the love of God but upon the repentance and faith of each individual person. God is love, to be certain, but man also has a free will. Men are not doomed and damned to Hell by God, but they go there because they have willfully rejected God’s only way of escape from sin’s penalty, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. God was love in the Old Testament times, and yet the children of Israel were punished for their sins. God is love now, but He does not open the doors of penal institutions to deliver those who are being punished for their crimes. It is but the fair treatment of society to protect it against the persistent wrong doings of the criminal, and certainly Heaven would not be safe nor desirable if there were no protection against sin and crime. It would seem to the writer that God owes it to the faithful believers that the wicked be separated from them in Heaven. It would be an insult to the justice and honor of God were He to allow the unrighteous and unholy rejectors of Jesus Christ to share eternally the abode and “the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him” (1 Corinthians 2:9).The natural and inevitable consequence of sin is punishment. Proper punishment of a child does not derogate from the love of the parent. Sin condemns just as sure as fire burns, and God is justified in putting into effect the immortal law that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” (Galatians 6:8).
Hell--A Literal Place of Future Punishment
Some people engage themselves in much wishful thinking about Hell. It has been said that the fires of Hell mean the torments of conscience. Others say that Hell is simply the grave. We do not question that the torments of conscience will be included in the eternal punishment of the lost, though Hell will not be the torments of conscience only. But we cannot agree at all with those who teach that Hell is simply the grave. One must be either a deceiver or an illiterate to say that Hell is the grave. When the unsaved rich man died he went to Hell, and cried: “I am tormented in this flame” (Luke 16:24). Certainly he was not merely in the grave. He had five brothers whom he desired to be saved lest they also should come to that place of torment. Now if his five brothers would have repented and become saved, their conversion could not have kept them from the grave, for “it is appointed unto men once to die” (Hebrews 9:27). Repentance and conversion will keep one from Hell but never from the grave. The bodies of all men, excepting those believers who are alive when Christ comes, will return to the dust. Hell is not the grave. The body of the rich man was dead, but that man knew that his soul was in a literal place and not merely in a spiritual state.Notice the use of the word “fire,” which denotes that the fire of Hell is as literal as the place itself. Repeatedly our Lord and the apostles spoke of the fire of Hell.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22).
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matthew 7:19).
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41, 42).
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (Matthew 18:8, 9).
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44).
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame (Luke 16:24).
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (Jude 6, 7).
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10).
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her (Revelation 18:8).
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone (Revelation 19:20).
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 20:10).
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, 15).
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
You may study these statements and believe them, or else you may pass them by. You may believe that the Bible is for today, or else you may laugh at it as a bit of obsolete dogma. But today you are face to face with eternal statements in the Word of God which will survive the heavens and the earth. Your unbelief cannot disprove nor alter them. When the resurrected physical bodies of the unbelievers of every age leave the Judgment of the Great White Throne, they will go into a literal Hell of fire.
And be sure that the body will share with the soul in its suffering. Jesus said: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29). May we ask what part of man is in the grave? We all agree that it is his body. Therefore we can depend on Christ’s statement that that part of man that is buried in the grave will come forth to be damned eternally.
Will Future Punishment be Endless?
At death the eternal state of each person is immutably fixed. The words “eternal,” “everlasting,” “for ever” and “for ever and ever” express endless duration. The New Testament use of these expressions denotes eternity.5 It is unreasonable to assume that there is an eternal Heaven but not an eternal Hell. Eternal punishment is as much a truth of God’s Word as is the eternal rewards for the righteous. Jesus said: “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:46). The life of the righteous is everlasting, but so is the punishment of the wicked everlasting. The Bible says that salvation is eternal (Hebrews 5:9), life is eternal (John 6:54), redemption is eternal (Hebrews 9:12), and the inheritance of the saints is eternal (Hebrews 9:15). But it says also that the fire of Hell is eternal and everlasting (Matthew 18:8; Jude 7); the chains of Hell are everlasting (Jude 6); the blackness of darkness is for ever (Jude 13), and the torment is for ever and ever (Revelation 20:10). The punishment of the wicked and the life of the righteous are for equal duration, “for ever and ever.”Where is Hell?
Here we cannot be dogmatic. This question cannot be answered fully. Geographically Hell cannot be located. The old theory that is held by many is that Hell is in the heart of the earth. A brief article appeared in “Moody Monthly” (July 1940) in which the author sought to locate Hell. The following is a brief summary of that article.It is clear that Hell is not in this earth. The Apostle Peter speaks of the day when the earth is to be dissolved by fire:
The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved.... Nevertheless we, according to His promise look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (2 Peter 3:10-13).
We are not persisting in this view of the geographical location of Hell, for the Bible gives us no positive declarative statement of its situation. Where this outer darkness is, where the endless fire is, where Hell is we do not know, nor must we know. It is sufficient to say that Hell is a prepared place, and experientially it is at the end of every unsaved sinner’s life.
Come sinners, seek His grace
Whose wrath ye cannot bear;
Flee to the shelter of His cross,
And find salvation there.
Diserner
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Its sure does but we must remember the Father did not punish the Son, the Jewish leaders did which is what Jesus taught would happen and did happen. Jesus never hinted at or implied He was going to suffer from the Father but always said it was going to happen from the Jewish leaders. Jesus and the Apostles below make this abundantly clear.
The Bible places it all on the Jews below who caused Him to suffer many things, put Him to death, mocked, flogged and crucified Him, nailed Him to the cross, slew and hanged on a tree, murdered Him and condemned Him. All by the Jews, not God.
Matthew 16:21-From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19 -“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified.
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.
Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross
Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him
Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him
1 Corinthians 2:8- None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
hope this helps !!!
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Ezra
Well-known member
read the Bible for what its worth the eternal lake of fire.
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
weeping and gnashing of teeth where the worm dies not.. all this has been pointed out.. stop watching things that are not true
civic
Well-known member
Notice how the adherents of annihilation ( a heretical teaching ) must change the meaning of eternal and make it temporal to fit their doctrine. Its what all unorthodox religions do to support their erroneous teachings is to redefine words and phrarses in the bible to fit their doctrines.
If eternal punishment for the wicked is not true then neither is eternal life and heaven for the redeemed. One cannot have their cake and eat it too as they say. @dizerner
hope this helps !!!
This can only be true if God grants "EVERYONE" eternal life. Now for the immortal beings, like satan and its angels, yes there is eternal torment for those eternal beings. But eternal life is not granted to humans at birth. Men can die as God told Adam and Eve. The oldest and greatest deception ever perpetuated on mankind, is "Thou shall surely not die", in my understanding of Scriptures.
Thanks for posting the verses below for our examination and consideration.
The Fire prepared for immortal beings, (Devil and its angels) must be eternal. The "gnashing anguish" (Worm) is eternal.
Matt. 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
To interpret this as God giving humans given eternal life is a stretch in my view. And makes God the deceiver, and satan the truthful one in the story of Eve. "thou shall surely not die".
Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I can see how men could be convinced they are immortal, and certainly we have been taught this from our youth, and are shown these verses for support. But the entire religious philosophy is founded on the belief that God grants the gift of immortality to Every Human. And the Scriptures simply do not teach this, in my understanding.
In the Lord's Feast of Atonement, there is a Prophesy regarding this wilderness.
Lev. 16: 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. (This would be the Christ, Yes?)
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
This is also mentioned in Rev. 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
As it is written in Lev. 16: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
This is the outer darkness where satan and it's angels are cast. This is where the lake of fire exists.
Rev. 20: 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
No doubt these demons are not happy about their circumstance, and will gnash their teeth.
Mortal beings which are cast in this fire, are destroyed with "Everlasting destruction", that is a death, from which there is no return.
Paul says;
1 Cor. 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, "then" shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
For this world's religious philosophy regarding hell to be true, then Paul, along with God and His Son, have led us astray.
Yes, an "Eternal Death" as opposed to "Eternal Life". Death is the promised punishment for Sin, Yes?
Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: , O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
I don't even have to imagine what it would be like, because Jesus gives us a glimpse.
Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Why are these men pleading with Jesus? When is this my friend? Is this not the "Last Great Day"? The final throne judgment? Romans 14:10-12, “For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
Like the Rich man, they can see what awaits them. And they can also see what they threw away because they wouldn't harken. First they will argue like these men are. "But wait a minute Jesus, don't you know who we are?" And when they see it is too late they will weep first, then they will curse God.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There is nothing in these verses that implies in any way that God has granted them immortality.
I'm sure a man can find a translation to support the philosophy that all men are born immortal.
KJV. 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
CLV. 9 the Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging,
RSV. 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
Nevertheless, those men under punishment, will be raised from the dead, judged, and the guilty cast into the Lake of Fire reserved for immortal beings. They will be destroyed with an "Everlasting Destruction", that is, a destruction from which there is no return. How can this be? Because they have not received the gift of immortality.
I will honor your post in examining and discussing the rest of the verses you posted, in another post.
Great topic.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Notice how this verse does not refer to humans but the devil?
But there is still no promise from God to give all men immortality. Demons, satan, angels, yes. These have immortality. But the men of Sodom? If they were men, they will suffer eternal death in the judgment.
Yes, this death is eternal. "Everlasting death". A death from which there is no return. Why? Because these mortal beings were not allowed to "PUT ON" immortality that Paul said "Must" be put on.
Yes, as Paul says;
2 Cor. 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Yes, satan and its ministers/angels are immortal. But humans are not.
There is a popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's religions, that all humans are born immortal. That God grants the gift of immortality to everyone at birth. I don't believe the Scriptures support this ancient popular philosophy regarding the afterlife. But it certainly has been a great marketing strategy for this world's religious businesses. So I can understand it's appeal.
So then, according to this philosophy, God creates people who live for 70 years +-, which isn't even a blink of an eye in eternity. God Places them in a world surrounded by evil and deceivers, warns them about being deceived and working iniquity, then when they become deceived and sin, even if they call Jesus Lord, Lord, He punishes them by making them live forever in a lake of fire filled with immortal demons.
I don't see the Scriptures teaching this at all. It's simple for me. We live and either die once, or we die twice, the second death being a death which is eternal. God is merciful to His creation even in death. To preach that God holds a grudge against an animal HE created for eternity, is just foolishness to me. And I don't find Scriptural support for this philosophy in the Scriptures at all.
But who am I?
Great topic to be sure.
Ezra
Well-known member
next you will say there are many ways to heaven.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: please note the words that are in black bold..
It’s popular today to promote Jesus as gentle and mild-mannered, but Jesus also issued sharp rebukes and serious warnings. His statement in Matthew 7:23 is one of the scariest passages in the Bible. When Jesus said, “Depart from Me, I never knew you,” he wasn’t referring to pagans, but to those who were considered the “good guys”—theologians who adhered to Jewish law. What did Jesus mean when He said, “I never knew you;” and how are those words significant for the church today?
Ezra
Well-known member
i have considered a lot of things . but after farther study i found it was wrong and what your saying goes against the word of God .. what do you consider weeping gnashing of teeth where the worm does not die?
Diserner
Well-known member
Jesus experienced the same wrath we deserved, this is the teaching of PSA.
Because God is just and doesn't skip punishing sin somewhere, else why not just skip death altogether and let Adam and Eve off the hook.
Of course, rejecting Jesus as God, makes him incapable of suffering equivalent in your view.
An infinite being can experience in a finite time, what a finite being can experience in infinite time.
Thus Jesus truly did stand in our place, and not some watered down version.
