Wages of Sin is Death NOT ECT

civic said:
Matthew 25:46
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
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1) "And these shall go away," (kai apeleusontai houtoi) "And these (on the left) will go away," for final abandonment from contact with, communication with, or any extended mercy or delayed judgement from God, without remedy, Pro_29:1.

2) "Into everlasting punishment," (eis kolasin aionion) "Into eternal punishment," where "their worm (conscience or memory) never dies, and the fire is never quenched," Mar_9:44; Mar_9:46; Mar_9:48; Luk_16:25. The torments and flames of hell will be fueled by the memorex, computerized recall, of every sinner's conscience in all eternity, forever and ever, Rev_14:10-11.

3) "But the righteous into life eternal." (hoi de dikaioi eis zeon aionion) "then the righteous ones (on his right) will go on into eternal life," where time shall be no more. The same Gk. Term (aionion) describes the conscious duration, being, or existence of the righteous and the wicked. Each is without end, cessation, or termination, Luk_10:25; Joh_3:15-16; Joh_5:24; Joh_10:27-28; 1Jn_5:13.

everlasting Greek. aionion. App-151. In the same sense as in Heb_5:9 (Isa_45:17); Mat_6:2; Mat_9:12. 2Th_1:9. (Compare Psa_52:5; Psa_92:7.) The eternal result must be the same as in the next clause.

punishment. Greek. kolasis. According to Aristotle kolasis has regard to him who suffers it, while timoria has regard to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it. (Occurs only in Heb_10:29. The verb timoreo only in Act_22:5, and Act_26:11.) Kolasis occ only here, and 1Jn_4:18 (the verb kolazomai only in Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9). What this kolasis is must be learnt from Mat_25:41. Compare Mat_3:12, and note on Luk_3:17.

everlasting - Mat_25:41; Dan_12:2; Mar_9:44, Mar_9:46, Mar_9:48-49; Luk_16:26; Joh_5:29; 2Th_1:9; Rev_14:10-11, Rev_20:10, Rev_20:15, Rev_21:8
the righteous - Mat_13:43; Psa_16:10-11; Joh_3:15-16, Joh_3:36, Joh_10:27-28; Rom_2:7-16, Rom_5:21, Rom_6:23; 1Jn_2:25, 1Jn_5:11-12; Jud_1:21
 
Johann said:
1) "And these shall go away," (kai apeleusontai houtoi) "And these (on the left) will go away," for final abandonment from contact with, communication with, or any extended mercy or delayed judgement from God, without remedy, Pro_29:1.

2) "Into everlasting punishment," (eis kolasin aionion) "Into eternal punishment," where "their worm (conscience or memory) never dies, and the fire is never quenched," Mar_9:44; Mar_9:46; Mar_9:48; Luk_16:25. The torments and flames of hell will be fueled by the memorex, computerized recall, of every sinner's conscience in all eternity, forever and ever, Rev_14:10-11.

3) "But the righteous into life eternal." (hoi de dikaioi eis zeon aionion) "then the righteous ones (on his right) will go on into eternal life," where time shall be no more. The same Gk. Term (aionion) describes the conscious duration, being, or existence of the righteous and the wicked. Each is without end, cessation, or termination, Luk_10:25; Joh_3:15-16; Joh_5:24; Joh_10:27-28; 1Jn_5:13.

everlasting Greek. aionion. App-151. In the same sense as in Heb_5:9 (Isa_45:17); Mat_6:2; Mat_9:12. 2Th_1:9. (Compare Psa_52:5; Psa_92:7.) The eternal result must be the same as in the next clause.

punishment. Greek. kolasis. According to Aristotle kolasis has regard to him who suffers it, while timoria has regard to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it. (Occurs only in Heb_10:29. The verb timoreo only in Act_22:5, and Act_26:11.) Kolasis occ only here, and 1Jn_4:18 (the verb kolazomai only in Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9). What this kolasis is must be learnt from Mat_25:41. Compare Mat_3:12, and note on Luk_3:17.

everlasting - Mat_25:41; Dan_12:2; Mar_9:44, Mar_9:46, Mar_9:48-49; Luk_16:26; Joh_5:29; 2Th_1:9; Rev_14:10-11, Rev_20:10, Rev_20:15, Rev_21:8
the righteous - Mat_13:43; Psa_16:10-11; Joh_3:15-16, Joh_3:36, Joh_10:27-28; Rom_2:7-16, Rom_5:21, Rom_6:23; 1Jn_2:25, 1Jn_5:11-12; Jud_1:21
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It sounds like we are in agreement that eternal life/bliss and eternal punishment/suffering never end for both the righteous and the wicked.
 
civic said:
Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment for the wicked
Eternal life for the righteous

I believe Jesus above.

hope this helps !!!
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That's exactly what I said. But by accepting ECT you are changing the above scripture that you first quoted, to punishing. I do believe what the Bible says. You are changing it
 
Johann said:
Without a doubt.
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Them you are both accepting a caricature picture of God devised by Satan.
The Bible picture of God is what He has revealed Himself to be. Why do you not believe Him? Does He not describe Himself as just? Merciful? Gracious? Loving? And good?
What character is displayed by idols? The gods of Satan's and man's own making that we view on history and modern cinema? Cruel, selfish, proud, arbitrary, hateful, unjust, murderous, slanderous, vicious, vindictive, vengeful. The list goes on. Which group is the better fit for ECT?
 
Brakelite said:
Them you are both accepting a caricature picture of God devised by Satan.
The Bible picture of God is what He has revealed Himself to be. Why do you not believe Him? Does He not describe Himself as just? Merciful? Gracious? Loving? And good?
What character is displayed by idols? The gods of Satan's and man's own making that we view on history and modern cinema? Cruel, selfish, proud, arbitrary, hateful, unjust, murderous, slanderous, vicious, vindictive, vengeful. The list goes on. Which group is the better fit for ECT?
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I see-

Mat 19:16 καιG2532 ιδουG2400 ειςG1520 προσελθωνG4334 ειπενG2036 αυτωG1473 διδασκαλεG1320 αγαθεG18 τιG5100 αγαθονG18 ποιησωG4160 ιναG2443 εχωG2192 ζωηνG2222 αιωνιονG166

You seem to forget YHVH is holy and JUST-and being JUST God can and MUST punish-yes? And you have a problem with aionos-that it doesn't REALLY mean "eternal"

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is God unjust to those who don't believe? Is God vindictive in letting His wrath PRESENTLY abiding on all who spurn Him?




αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

LXX related word(s)
H5769 olam

Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165

B. aion in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity.
1. The Formulas "from Eternity" and "to Eternity."
a. The concepts of time and eternity merge in the use with prepositions suggesting indefinite time (Luk_1:70; Act_3:21; Joh_9:32; Jud_1:13 LXX). Sometimes the meaning is "from a remote time" (Luk_1:70; Joh_9:32— "never"), but sometimes there is a strong hint of eternity (Luk_1:55; Joh_6:51).

This is especially true of the plural (Mat_6:13; Luk_1:33; Rom_1:25; Heb_13:8; Jud_1:25 LXX; cf. also with a past reference 1Co_2:7; Col_1:26; Eph_3:11). The double formula "for ever and ever" (Heb_1:8), especially in the plural (in Paul and Revelation; cf. also Heb:-13:21; 1Pe_4:11), is designed to stress the concept of eternity, as are constructions like that in Eph_3:21 ("to all generations for ever and ever").

b. The usage corresponds to that of the LXX (cf. Amo_9:11; Isa_45:17; Psa_45:6), the only difference being intensification in the NT.
2. The Eternity of God.
a. aion means eternity in the full sense when linked with God (Rom_16:26; 1Ti_1:17; cf. Jer_10:10).

b. In the OT this means first that God always was (Gen_21:23) and will be (Deu_5:23), in contrast to us mortals. By the time of Isa_40:28 this comes to mean that God is eternal, the "First and Last," whose being is "from eternity to eternity" (Psa_90:2). Eternity is unending time, but in later Judaism it is sometimes set in antithesis to time. The NT took over the Jewish formulas but extended eternity to Christ (Heb_1:10 ff.; Rev_1:17-18; Rev_2:8). Here again eternity could be seen as the opposite of cosmic time, God's being and acts being put in terms of pre- and post- (1Co_2:7; Col_1:26; Eph_3:9; Joh_17:24; 1Pe_1:20).

3) "That I may have eternal life?" (hina scho zoen aionion) "In order that I may have, hold, or possess eternal life?" Rom_6:23; This is first mention of the phrase "eternal life" in the New Testament. It is a gift from God to every believer in Jesus Christ, not a reward or merited personal pay, Joh_10:27-28; Joh_3:14-15.
Coming to Jesus is the thing every sinner should do. This one came:
a) Publicly.
b) Eagerly "running,"
c) Humbly "kneeling,"
d) Respectfully, "good master," yet in sorrow, he turned away covetously, to go on to hell, where riches or their earthly benefits never go.



Again-I read my Bible and believe eternal MEANS eternal.
 
Wrangler said:
Eternal Conscious Torture (ECT) is nowhere in Scripture said to be the wages of sin. Where do you suppose this teaching came from?

Paganism. I watched an Unexplained yesterday. Shatner, the host, explained this comes from other culture's religion.
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The same chapter of Romans that says "the wages of sin is death" also says "anyone who has died has been set free from sin"

So it might just be the reason it is called a second death.

Hmm .. the wages of being enslaved is being set free .. now that sounds like Jesus.

How about that? ;)
 
dizerner said:
The Lamb of God who bears the sins of the world.

To you, bearing sins is not wrath.

To me, it clearly is.
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Except Jesus and the Apostles not once said it was wrath. An argument from silence fallacy.

Jesus said it was forgiveness of sins, a ransom, expiation of sin, passover, substitution, suffering death at the hands of wicked men.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- substitution

8-Jesus tells His disciples the cup of suffering that awaited Him and that they too would also drink of this cup- Matthew 20

9-This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

10- Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing- Luke 23:34


hope this helps !!!
 
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Johann said:
I see-

Mat 19:16 καιG2532 ιδουG2400 ειςG1520 προσελθωνG4334 ειπενG2036 αυτωG1473 διδασκαλεG1320 αγαθεG18 τιG5100 αγαθονG18 ποιησωG4160 ιναG2443 εχωG2192 ζωηνG2222 αιωνιονG166

You seem to forget YHVH is holy and JUST-and being JUST God can and MUST punish-yes? And you have a problem with aionos-that it doesn't REALLY mean "eternal"

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Is God unjust to those who don't believe? Is God vindictive in letting His wrath PRESENTLY abiding on all who spurn Him?




αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

LXX related word(s)
H5769 olam

Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165

B. aion in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity.
1. The Formulas "from Eternity" and "to Eternity."
a. The concepts of time and eternity merge in the use with prepositions suggesting indefinite time (Luk_1:70; Act_3:21; Joh_9:32; Jud_1:13 LXX). Sometimes the meaning is "from a remote time" (Luk_1:70; Joh_9:32— "never"), but sometimes there is a strong hint of eternity (Luk_1:55; Joh_6:51).

This is especially true of the plural (Mat_6:13; Luk_1:33; Rom_1:25; Heb_13:8; Jud_1:25 LXX; cf. also with a past reference 1Co_2:7; Col_1:26; Eph_3:11). The double formula "for ever and ever" (Heb_1:8), especially in the plural (in Paul and Revelation; cf. also Heb:-13:21; 1Pe_4:11), is designed to stress the concept of eternity, as are constructions like that in Eph_3:21 ("to all generations for ever and ever").

b. The usage corresponds to that of the LXX (cf. Amo_9:11; Isa_45:17; Psa_45:6), the only difference being intensification in the NT.
2. The Eternity of God.
a. aion means eternity in the full sense when linked with God (Rom_16:26; 1Ti_1:17; cf. Jer_10:10).

b. In the OT this means first that God always was (Gen_21:23) and will be (Deu_5:23), in contrast to us mortals. By the time of Isa_40:28 this comes to mean that God is eternal, the "First and Last," whose being is "from eternity to eternity" (Psa_90:2). Eternity is unending time, but in later Judaism it is sometimes set in antithesis to time. The NT took over the Jewish formulas but extended eternity to Christ (Heb_1:10 ff.; Rev_1:17-18; Rev_2:8). Here again eternity could be seen as the opposite of cosmic time, God's being and acts being put in terms of pre- and post- (1Co_2:7; Col_1:26; Eph_3:9; Joh_17:24; 1Pe_1:20).

3) "That I may have eternal life?" (hina scho zoen aionion) "In order that I may have, hold, or possess eternal life?" Rom_6:23; This is first mention of the phrase "eternal life" in the New Testament. It is a gift from God to every believer in Jesus Christ, not a reward or merited personal pay, Joh_10:27-28; Joh_3:14-15.
Coming to Jesus is the thing every sinner should do. This one came:
a) Publicly.
b) Eagerly "running,"
c) Humbly "kneeling,"
d) Respectfully, "good master," yet in sorrow, he turned away covetously, to go on to hell, where riches or their earthly benefits never go.



Again-I read my Bible and believe eternal MEANS eternal.
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With all respect, it is not eternity I have a problem with. The problem here is the many people who do not know or understand the difference between punishing, which lasts until death, and punishment, which is eternal. The wages of sin is death. That's punishment. It's eternal. Punishing is the process of torment that leads to death.
 
civic said:
It never ends it’s continuous.
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You are interpreting scripture on the basis of your apprehension of the character of God. You think God to be capricious and vengeful, this you think His justice shall never be satisfied, and therefore needs to be ongoing. You believe it is impossible for God to settle the question of sin and rebellion, and therefore believe He has to tolerate sin and evil in His creation for ever without end. Sin and evil is therefore immortalized. None of which can be justified from scripture without bias. The God you think you serve doesn't exist.
 
Brakelite said:
You are interpreting scripture on the basis of your apprehension of the character of God. You think God to be capricious and vengeful, this you think His justice shall never be satisfied, and therefore needs to be ongoing. You believe it is impossible for God to settle the question of sin and rebellion, and therefore believe He has to tolerate sin and evil in His creation for ever without end. Sin and evil is therefore immortalized. None of which can be justified from scripture without bias. The God you think you serve doesn't exist.
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It's so weird to me that he uses these same arguments against PSA but seems blind to it here.
 
Brakelite said:
With all respect, it is not eternity I have a problem with. The problem here is the many people who do not know or understand the difference between punishing, which lasts until death, and punishment, which is eternal. The wages of sin is death. That's punishment. It's eternal. Punishing is the process of torment that leads to death.
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Further to the above,
Johann said:
That I may have eternal life?" (hina scho zoen aionion) "In order that I may have, hold, or possess eternal life?" Rom_6:23; This is first mention of the phrase "eternal life" in the New Testament. It is a gift from God to every believer in Jesus Christ, not a reward or merited personal pay, Joh_10:27-28; Joh_3:14-15.
Click to expand...
I'm still a little confused as to why you should question my understanding regarding eternity. I have no issue with God granting eternal life to believers. It is a wonderful gift impossible for us to fully appreciate today, and what greatly motivates Christians... The love and mercy and grace of a faithful and good God... To testify to the world of His love and offer of life. No question from me at all.
What I question is your understanding of the alternative. For you, the alternative is a different address. Still alive. Still conscious. Still able to experience pain, suffering, torment, anguish, emotional and physical agony, despair and hopelessness. All made possible by a generous and loving God who has granted them also eternal life...for the sole purpose of satisfying His undying, unending, eternal anger and what would be an unsatisfied sense of so-called justice upon unbelievers, some as young as 12 years old whose parents chose to worship a stump of wood rather than their Creator. 12 years old ...12 years of lying and thieving and adultery and promiscuity and murdering and pillaging and malicious terrorism against her perceived enemies...oh wait, not all 12 year olds are like that are they. Yet they will have to suffer for just as long as Hitler and Stalin and Caligula.
civic said:
It never ends it’s continuous.
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Yes. The punishment never ends. It's eternal. Death... Without hope of resurrection. Destruction. As if one never was.
 
Brakelite said:
oh wait, not all 12 year olds are like that are they. Yet they will have to suffer for just as long as Hitler and Stalin and Caligula.
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You've really got to understand how evil sin is. You are categorizing sins according to your soulish and emotional feelings about them, not the holiness of God.

One sin is that bad—it really is that bad. You can't have this understanding that if you work in the soup kitchen 20 years you pay off all the little sins. You can't.

If one understands how bad sin is, hell starts to make more sense. And if one understands the sin nature—it is not just deliberate volitional acts that produce sin.

If I am inherently bad—if there is something about me that is inherently evil before I do anything at all—then I can never appeal to self-righteousness or God owing me heaven.

It is, in fact, the fear of God that helps a person understand the reality and justice of hell.
 
Brakelite said:
What I question is your understanding of the alternative. For you, the alternative is a different address. Still alive. Still conscious. Still able to experience pain, suffering, torment, anguish, emotional and physical agony, despair and hopelessness. All made possible by a generous and loving God who has granted them also eternal life...for the sole purpose of satisfying His undying, unending, eternal anger and what would be an unsatisfied sense of so-called justice upon unbelievers, some as young as 12 years old whose parents chose to worship a stump of wood rather than their Creator. 12 years old ...12 years of lying and thieving and adultery and promiscuity and murdering and pillaging and malicious terrorism against her perceived enemies...oh wait, not all 12 year olds are like that are they. Yet they will have to suffer for just as long as Hitler and Stalin and Caligula.
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What is the problematic post you are having a problem with? If we are here to just philosophize without Scriptures I am not interested.
 
dizerner said:
You've really got to understand how evil sin is. You are categorizing sins according to your soulish and emotional feelings about them, not the holiness of God.

One sin is that bad—it really is that bad. You can't have this understanding that if you work in the soup kitchen 20 years you pay off all the little sins. You can't.

If one understands how bad sin is, hell starts to make more sense. And if one understands the sin nature—it is not just deliberate volitional acts that produce sin.

If I am inherently bad—if there is something about me that is inherently evil before I do anything at all—then I can never appeal to self-righteousness or God owing me heaven.

It is, in fact, the fear of God that helps a person understand the reality and justice of hell.
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Feeling kind of "punch-drunk" from all the blows-

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

You?
 

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