I agree. The Bible teaches that the punishment for Sin is Death, not eternal life. "If eternal death for the wicked is not true then neither is eternal life and heaven for the redeemed"
Wages of Sin is Death NOT ECT
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
I agree. The Bible teaches that the punishment for Sin is Death, not eternal life. "If eternal death for the wicked is not true then neither is eternal life and heaven for the redeemed"
civic
Well-known member
Eternal is everlasting life for the redeemed and everlasting punishment for the wicked. Both groups have a conscious existence in the afterlife.
Ceasing to exist is no punishment but a reward for sin. It’s having your cake and eating it too in this life. It’s exactly what the atheists believe. You have one life to live so please yourself all you can in this life for after death you cease to exist.
hope this helps !!!
Diserner
Well-known member
Proper punishment of a child does not derogate from the love of the parent.
civic
Well-known member
Except Jesus who is God and all truth never said the Father punished Him and said the Jews did.
Diserner
Well-known member
Oh, wow, really.
Man, I'm glad you brought this to my attention.
Can you give me all those verses you have that use the word "punish" towards what the Jews did to Jesus.
Not flog, kill, crucify, mock.
You used the word "punish."
That is the popular religious philosophy of this world. But it is predicated on the belief that God gives the gift of immortality to every human. The Bible doesn't teach this.
Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You want to preach that death is not a punishment. You are free to do so. I disagree.
LOL, I know a few atheists. They do all they can do to prolong life. I think you are mistaken about this in your attempt to preserve your adopted religious philosophy. I have also known several men who have grown old and died. They all say the same thing. "Life is so short", it happens so fast. When men are resurrected and see what they threw away, what was right in front of them, what they could have had, but rejected it for a few fleshy desires in a life that was a vapor, here today, gone tomorrow, I'm quite sure they won't look at another death as a reward.
But religious men have their traditions. I have spelled out in detail my Scriptural reasons for disagreeing with this popular one. I hope I never find out firsthand.
civic
Well-known member
Define punish
Diserner
Well-known member
Wrangler
Well-known member
The worm does not die. It does not mean that what the worm eats, our dead flesh does not die.
What I'm saying goes with the word of God, who told Adam and Eve that if they eat the forbidden fruit, they will surely die. He did not say suffer eternal conscious torment.
And I sense an unjustified and terse dismissal of my question that Jesus only died and did not suffer ETC, which means he did NOT pay for the sins of the world if the wages of sin is ETC. Rather than deny what I am saying is consistent with Scripture, what logic or Scripture rationalizes Jesus suffered ETC, thereby paying for the sins of the world?
Ezra
Well-known member
tell ya what its a free world and you can hold/ bank on your ETC . which in every thing i have studied does not line up with scriptures . i don't if your a mixture of Calvinism and J.W or some other off the wall strange fire doctrine.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
when adam and ever sinned in the garden 1. their eyes was opened the seen sin 2. they his themselves telling God they was naked and afraid. they made excuses ..who was the author of that sin? the serpent who was very cunning proposed to them hath God said ? or did he mean this? they Died spiritually and a later date physically. but God sacrificed animals to make a covering for there nakedness/ sin.
{ 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. }
your correct the world was young and a virgin to sin. God covered their sins with animal skins till that point best i can tell the word naked or sin was not even thought of.
the wages of sin is Death the Gift of God is eternal life. your ETC is so far out there. its like the old kid show i use to watch Lost In Space.
for the life of me where you get this far out doctrine is beyond me
Ezra
Well-known member
i like what got questions has to say on this
Jerusalem’s ancient garbage dump—a place called Gehenna—was illustrative of the ceaseless agonies of hell. This dump was on the south side of Jerusalem. In Old Testament times, children had been sacrificed to idols there (2 Kings 23:10); in Jesus’ day, it was a place burning with constant fires to consume the waste that was thrown there. The material burned there included everything from household trash to animal carcasses to convicted criminals (Jeremiah 7:31–33). Needless to say, the Jews considered Gehenna a cursed place of impurity and uncleanness.
The word translated “hell” in Mark 9:43 is the Greek word Gehenna, which comes from the Hebrew name for a place called the “Valley of Hinnom.” Jesus uses this place to paint a vivid image of what hell is like. The Jewish people often associated the Valley of Hinnom with spiritual death.
In Mark 9:48, when Jesus says, “Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” (ESV), He is quoting from Isaiah 66:24: “They will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” In both texts the word translated as “worm” literally means “grub” or “maggot.” A maggot would have an obvious association with a dump like Gehenna where dead bodies are thrown; however, the maggot Christ speaks of “will not die.”
the worm dies not represents eternal death of weeping and gnashing of teeth
On multiple occasions, Jesus refers to hell as a place where “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30). This coupling of weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell reflects the unspeakable torment of those who will be separated from God for all eternity.
In the Bible, both “weeping” and “gnashing of teeth” represent physical and spiritual anguish. When Jerusalem was destroyed, and the Jews were exiled from their homeland, the people wept in anguish (Isaiah 22:12; Lamentations 1:2, 16; 2:11). In the New Testament, James warned the rich oppressors to prepare for God’s judgment, advising, “weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you” (James 5:1). Gnashing (or “grinding”) of teeth also appears throughout the Bible, always depicting people in moments of violent, furious torment and vexation (Psalm 37:12; Lamentations 2:16; Acts 7:54).
In every instance that Jesus uses the expression weeping and gnashing of teeth, He associates it with someone coming to the excruciating realization that he or she will not be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. In Matthew 8:12, it is the Jewish people who reject Christ’s salvation; in Matthew 13:36–43, it is the evil enemies of God; in Matthew 13:47–52, it is the wicked; in Matthew 22:1–14, it is all who refuse Christ’s invitation; in Matthew 24:48–51, it is the evil, disobedient servant; and in Matthew 25:14–30, it is the worthless, faithless servant.
Long before Jesus talked about weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell, the psalmist presented an end-of-the-world snapshot of the wicked observing the blissful destiny of the righteous (Psalm 112:1–9) while gnashing their teeth in rage (Psalm 112:10). There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell because the unredeemed will finally see and understand all that they have lost.
Likewise, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell because it is a place of eternal punishment (Jude 1:7). Hell was originally intended for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Revelation 20:1–3, 10), but it is also for people who choose to reject the Lord (Matthew 13:40–42; Mark 9:42–48; Romans 2:8; Hebrews 10:26–29; 2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 20:15; 21:8).
Since God is a God of love (1 John 4:7–8), He wants everyone to understand the truth about hell. Through a relationship with Jesus Christ, God offers us eternal life in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 4:17; 25:31–34; John 3:16–18). If we reject His offer, the alternative is hell. And Scripture is clear—hell is a reality not to be taken lightly or ignored. Judgment and punishment in hell are expressed in the Bible as “God’s wrath” (John 3:36; Deuteronomy 32:22; Zephaniah 1:18; Romans 2:5), “torment” (Luke 16:23–24; Revelation 14:11; Revelation 20:10), “destruction” and “corruption” (Psalm 55:23; Romans 9:22; Philippians 3:18–19; Galatians 6:8; 2 Peter 1:4), and “eternal” and “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12; Hebrews 10:27; Revelation 19:20). Scripture also emphasizes the extreme isolation of hell, referring to it as “blackest darkness” (Jude 1:6, 13; 2 Peter 2:17), “the Abyss” (Revelation 9:1–2), and “death” (John 8:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Corinthians 15:26; 1 Corinthians 15:54–55; Revelation 20:14–15; 21:8).
Perhaps the most distressing aspect of hell is that it means total and eternal separation from God (Matthew 7:23). The apostle Paul describes the Lord’s judgment as coming “in flaming fire . . . on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power” (2 Thessalonians 1:8–9, NLT).
The finality of hell is cause for anguish and torment, for there will be no escape for those who find themselves there (Luke 16:26 Hebrews 6:4–6; 10:26–27). In the endless absence of God’s love, light, peace, and joy, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But for all who enter God’s eternal dwelling, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain” (Revelation 21:4, NLT).
your cause of no ETC is compared to Hamas hiding in basements of the Hospital.. soon exposed Israel proved they was right.
you been proven wrong by scriptures
Wrangler
Well-known member
Then paragraph after paragraph says nothing like ECT.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Ezra
Well-known member
your right you have to have eyes to see and ears to hear . see that is the only thing you have right
Ezra
Well-known member
nahh i was giving you bible
Ezra
Well-known member
by the way i never claimed to be proper just straight to the point. but i did notice you never defended your false theology
Brakelite
Active member
Eternal punishment is real. It is death, from which there is no resurrection. This is vastly different from the concept of eternal punishing. Punishing is nowhere revealed in scripture except as a temporary procedure that results in death.
The punishment is the opposite to life everlasting. It is death. "For why would ye die O house of Israel"?
Immortality is nowhere given to sinners. It is a gift to the redeemed as a reward for faithfulness. It is clearly conditional on the criteria of faith and obedience, the very same criteria that when missing, condemns the wicked. Of course immortality is conditional. Otherwise it wouldn't be granted as a gift to the select few that seek for it and find it.
civic
Well-known member
Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Eternal punishment for the wicked
Eternal life for the righteous
I believe Jesus above.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Maybe the amplified will help some understand Jesus teaching
Matthew 25:46
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
Matthew 25:46
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
civic
Well-known member
Matthew 25:46
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as "punishment" means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1 John 4:18; "Fear hath 'torment.'" The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a "state or condition," but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word "could" express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word "everlasting" in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - "always belong," Matthew 18:8; Matthew 19:16; Mark 3:29; Romans 2:7; Hebrews 5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God's existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah's kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God's existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour's design always to teach this doctrine, this would be "the very word" to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce "fear and terror;" and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. "The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever."
8. that it is confirmed by many other passages of Scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Luke 16:26; Revelation 14:11; Psalm 9:17; Isaiah 33:14; Mark 16:16; John 3:36.
Life eternal - Man by sin has plunged himself into death, temporal, spiritual, eternal. Christ, by coming and dying, has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light, 2 Timothy 1:10. "Life" is the opposite of death. It denotes, here, freedom from death, and positive holiness and happiness forever. Barnes
hope this helps !!!
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as "punishment" means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1 John 4:18; "Fear hath 'torment.'" The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a "state or condition," but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word "could" express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word "everlasting" in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - "always belong," Matthew 18:8; Matthew 19:16; Mark 3:29; Romans 2:7; Hebrews 5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God's existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah's kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God's existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour's design always to teach this doctrine, this would be "the very word" to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce "fear and terror;" and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. "The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever."
8. that it is confirmed by many other passages of Scripture, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Luke 16:26; Revelation 14:11; Psalm 9:17; Isaiah 33:14; Mark 16:16; John 3:36.
Life eternal - Man by sin has plunged himself into death, temporal, spiritual, eternal. Christ, by coming and dying, has abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light, 2 Timothy 1:10. "Life" is the opposite of death. It denotes, here, freedom from death, and positive holiness and happiness forever. Barnes
hope this helps !!!
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