praise_yeshua
Well-known member
What a simple mistake.....
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Understanding........
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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What a simple mistake.....
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Then HE is a house divided: hating evil and all wicked people but creating them evil and damned; not wanting anyone to die in hell but then creating some knowing they will die in hell. This theology fails....both logic and scripture.
Pragmatic logic tells us
- a forced love in no love at all,
- a forced marriage or a marriage based upon lies is not real marriage at all.
- guilt for being forced to sin is no guilt at all
Why do you ask these nonsense questions...who says????
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I notice you provide absolutely no scripture for this. It's all your opinion.
No one who reads and believes scripture will affirm that
Romans 10:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”
Isaiah 30:9–16 (ESV) — 9 For they are a rebellious people, lying children, children unwilling to hear the instruction of the LORD; 10 who say to the seers, “Do not see,” and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right; speak to us smooth things, prophesy illusions, 11 leave the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.” 12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, “Because you despise this word and trust in oppression and perverseness and rely on them, 13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach in a high wall, bulging out and about to collapse, whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant; 14 and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel that is smashed so ruthlessly that among its fragments not a shard is found with which to take fire from the hearth, or to dip up water out of the cistern.” 15 For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, “In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.” But you were unwilling, 16 and you said, “No! We will flee upon horses”; therefore you shall flee away; and, “We will ride upon swift steeds”; therefore your pursuers shall be swift.
Isaiah 55:3 (ESV) — 3 Incline your ear, and come to me; hear, that your soul may live; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, my steadfast, sure love for David.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
So God wants everyone to be saved, but most go to hell. Say what you will, but it sounds like your god is quite the underachiever. He doesn't seem to have what it takes to accomplish what he wants.
Again he has that desire according to scripture
1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) — 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Isaiah 45:22 (ESV) — 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Ezekiel 33:11 (ESV) — 11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Do you prefer rationalization of men to the word of God?
Then hear your namesake
Lastly, he demonstrates that God has at heart the salvation of all, because he invites all to the acknowledgment of his truth. This belongs to that kind of argument in which the cause is proved from the effect; for, if “the gospel is the power of God for salvation to every one that believeth,” (Rom. 1:16,) it is certain that all those to whom the gospel is addressed are invited to the hope of eternal life1
1 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentaries on the Epistles to Timothy, Titus, and Philemon (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 54.
I'm sorry but that is not a answer. Let me repeat the question. Why did God have to give you free will?
No one is forced to sin. Nice strawman.
No sir. That's where your theology fails and is clearly contradictory if you affirm God's omniscience. Which I am suspecting you don't. Feel free to clear up my misconceptions if you so desire.
So He came to save only believers then. Those who will not believe He did not die for. Perfect. Thank you.
Nothing anywhere in scripture where conditions are met to be elected. No choose me so I can choose you. Elect me so I can elect you.
And it had nothing to do with my question. Prime example of a dodge.
Determined
GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26.
Amen to that as long as free will is defined properly.
This also does not mean God had to give you free will.
mailmandan
Active member
Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Folks can look at these verses two ways. God's fatalistic determination or God's foreknowledge. I believe the latter. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. God truly is omniscient. 
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Rockson
Well-known member
If you believe and give your stamp of approval on the WCF you do not believe man's will has any significant of anything free or otherwise. Sorry but it's merely a delusion if you claim that you do. If you have the following in the WCF,
"unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"
then you're really saying MEN are robots and puppets.
No, that's not what's its saying at all. Your will is free yet God ordained whatever comes to pass
My God is big enough to pull that off.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Pot... Kettle
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Folks can look at these verses two ways. God's fatalistic determination or God's foreknowledge. I believe the latter. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. God truly is omniscient.
What a convoluted mess.
If God knew them, He would have predestined them. If God predestined them, He would have already knew them.
You think you've figured it out and you really haven't. Your view is shallow and incomplete. Good knew. Christ is there if you will seek Him and forget about everyone else.
civic
Well-known member
Its called being drawn- Jesus said when I am lifed up ( raised from the dead, resurrected ) I will draw all men to Myself.
PS- I always provide scripture- sola Scriptura !!!!
Jesus draws, man must believe or remain in unbelief and condemnation. Jesus has provided a way of escape for all humanity- its called faith.belief in the gospel message which causes the new birth/regeneration, eternal life, salvation.
The new birth being born again comes through the message of the gospel. It doesn't come before but after faith.
1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.
So Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ !
Romans 10
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
hope this helps !!!
