Sure can. See post #179. Did the person freely choose to take their shoes off?
Understanding........
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
You did not address any verses quoted
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.
Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;
Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.
1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
As for what you stated I would look and see my shoes were not on fire and laugh
that would be a fail
That, however, is a example of determinism something yo occur yet your choice is free.
That is a success and a premise fail for you and yours
Okay. I determined you would laugh in my example. Did you freely choose to laugh?
Another premise fail and Calvinist siccess
Childish emojs does not really address my point or your premise fail.
Nope, you had tried to make me take my shoes off. I laughed at your failure
Another fail. I determined you would laugh. I scream your shoes are on fire and you look down and laugh. Did you freely choose to laugh?
Another failed premise.
Rockson
Well-known member
Think you better try something else. If someone really did yell that out to me taking my shoes off wouldn't be my first choice. It'd be to look down and see if they're on fire. No 2 I might step into a water pond beside me to put it out. (there are other options I could mention too)
See you're wanting to say every action is ordained. No God may bear some influence on another and they may yield to that influence but that is not God ordaining anything. Let's go over your example again.
You have implied God encourages a certain end result. He yells at a certain one take your shoes off they're on fire! Even if they did so that is not ordaining something. I have NEVER in all my years of discussing Calvinism in being opposed to it have never said God doesn't seek to cause an influence. It is written in Deut 8:2 where it states, God has sought to humble his people to encourage an end result. There is also this, in Psalms 106: 15 that God sent leanness into their souls.....So God will create or allow circumstances to move one to a certain desired end but that's no sign what he wants to occur as his will and longing will ever be done.
A great many times it's not. Having circumstances created which shows one that they're not such a big shot doesn't lock in as any guarantee that the other will see their need for God and repent or draw closer to him. Example after example, after example of this can be pointed out in scripture. You do see one's like Jonah repenting in the belly of the whale, or Paul on the road to Damascus. But that is still not a lock in guarantee that a persons action MUST play out a certain way.
To lock against any other choice would be to take away the Biblical context of FREE WILL. You Calvinists have it as God's will is ALWAYS done. Nope. It's not. People are at their own absolute liberty to choose their own pride.....or to choose humility.... to choose LIFE or DEATH. There is no such things as Calvinistic irresistible grace! The moment you claim there is, is to say you've done away with a man's will having freedom in any sense of the word. Seeing you want to believe men do have a freedom of will I'd encourage you to give up, set aside and throw away your Calvinism today. Stay with free will and give up the other. I believe that is God's will for you but will it however be accomplished in your life? It's up to YOU. Choose wisely.
Rockson
Well-known member
I hadn't read what you said until after I poster mine. Funny that I said the same thing in my post 189
My question was a simple yes or no. Did you freely choose to take your shoes off?
We can change it up if you like and the same question apply. I determined you look down at your shoes and I do so by yelling your shoes are on fire. Do you freely choose to look down at your shoes??
OK great minds and all thatI hadn't read what you said until after I poster mine. Funny that I said the same thing in my post 189
Nope you attempted to determine I would take my shoes off
And further you conflate influence which may or may not be followed with determination where no other option is possible
We're talking about a omniscient God here. He will know what you would do in any given situation.
Another failed premise
The holy elect angels all obey the law perfectly proving once again that humans are all fallen and it is their sinfulness that impedes their free will. Since our free will is so integral to our fulfilling HIS purpose in our creation, it also proves that we are NOT created fallen by any means whatsoever but were created perfectly able to fulfill HIS purpose.
Rebirth is then the renewal of their free will...but with bad sinful habits, our choices must be refined and trained in righteousness, Heb 12:4-11.
You destroy the definition of a free will as uncoerced by claiming it can be determined by another person's will.
All FREE means is uncoerced:
IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.
The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:
1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...
Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all, cultural or familial experience...
Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.
In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.
[Ref: definition of ingenuous: [URL]http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness[/URL] as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid.
2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.
But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.
If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.
Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.
We were created with a free will but lost it to the enslaving addictive power of evil when we used it to rebel and become sinful in HIS sight. HE gives us determined LIVES to fulfill HIS promise of election in us the best way possible but HE does not give the holy elect angels such lives...
Peace, Ted
I stopped reading after the word "coerced".
Free will: "the natural ability to make choices without force or coercion."
Um you are not God
Nope you attempted to determine I would take my shoes off
And further you conflate influence which may or may not be followed with determination where no other option is possible
Your failed premise
I'm not? LOL
No, I did determine it. I knew exactly what you would do. So did you Freely choose to look down?
No one said anything about influence.
Provisionist premise proven false.
No you did not determine it, but you had thought you could, but it was a fail.
The only thing shown to be false was your claim you could determine me to take my shoes off.
