TULIP - Lorraine Boettner said prove 1 point wrong and its all wrong.

[civic]

One must change the simple meaning of all, everyone, all the world, all men, all mankind, whoever, all people etc...... to mean some, a few, gentiles, jews. And we know if Scripture meant to say Jews and Gentiles it would say exactly that instead of all, everyone, all men, all the world etc.....

I do not have to change the meaning and can take Gods word literally and that He means what He says and says what He means.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Limited Atonement

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosoever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

 

[Arial]

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosoever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

You have "proven" your position by "proof texts" that simply make a contradiction within the Bible if one were to use the whole counsel of God, as one should. Instead you have overlaid your presuppositions onto every scripture you quote.
Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit." (Given as a proof text against irresistible grace.) Who was Stephen talking to? Jews. And what did everything he said relate to? The old covenant. A covenant of works in which God spelled out in great detail right from wrong. A this way, or a that way.

Did that passage even mention grace? The new covenant is not about obeying but about believing. (Though believing produces obeying God.)

As to unconditional election. John 1:12. If one does not overlay preconceived beliefs and desires that there is any actual form of a word that implies a person making some sort of choice to that isolated passage, it simply says those who He gave the right to become children of God are those who receive, believe in HIs name.
John 3:16 Says that God loved the world that He created(quite naturally He would) that He gave Jesus to redeem it from its fallen state, and those who believe in the Son are the ones who will inhabit this redeemed world because He will give them eternal life.

On limited atonement. John 1:20 ?? John 3:16 already debunked as support for your premise.
1 Tim 2:4-6 Paul is writing to a believer and for believers to come. Therefore, unless one is using it as a "proof text" isolated from the whole counsel of God, it stands to reason that "all people" refers to the character of God's will, and that in "a ransom for all" the all refers to those Jesus actually died for. Those who believe, with no connotation of a free will desire to choose to be saved there at all. It could also apply to the scope of the crucifixion which is so large it is capable of encompassing everyone, but even in free will, it does not.

2 Pet 3:9 What is Peter addressing before this passage appears? 3-4 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say "Where is the promise of His coming. For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.

So then the "you" and the "any" and the "all" refer to those Peter is writing to. Believers. And what he is doing is encouraging them to persevere.

1 John 2:2 Have all the sins of the whole world, every individual in the world who ever was, is, and ever will be, been propitiated? Not even close. Everyone but universalists acknowledge that. And even a child, after they are past the age of literalism, instinctively knows by the context in which they are used, there are different uses of "world" and "all". So the argument given about Calvinists changing the meanings of these words is a strawman army. So what does world mean in this passage. Two possibilities and maybe both are applicable. All of the world (creation) in its restored state. All nations and peoples among the redeemed.

And those who disagree with limited atonement never acknowledge that they themselves produce with their theology a truly limited atonement. It goes like this, Jesus paid for the sins of everyone. But, only those who believe by their own choice. They teach a contradiction. Which any way in which one looks at it in that scenario, Jesus died for everyone but it was of no use for most. It was more ineffective, great though the sacrifice was, than effective. It is limited.

In Calvinism on the other hand, it is unfortunate that the acronym became more important than accurately stating the doctrine. Definite atonement is accurate. Jesus died for those the Father gave Him, before most of them were even born. Those He died for, whose sin debt He paid on the cross, they will come to Him. (One place we see this is in John 17)

In any case, even from this little bit, we see that Calvinism does indeed use the whole counsel of God to arrive at its doctrine, and the sword used that claims they don't, or that they change the meaning of words that have more than one usage, in order to support that doctrine, ought to be stopped.

 

[e v e]

T

total depravity is true of the carnal self which oppresses the soul.

The soul is not that Self or its fleshbody!

The carnal self, a foreign entity guiding the soul, is totally depraved.

 

[Diserner]

T

total depravity is true of the carnal self which oppresses the soul.

The soul is not that Self or its fleshbody!

The carnal self, a foreign entity guiding the soul, is totally depraved.

Can you explain what you mean by "foreign entity"?

 

[civic]

Can you explain what you mean by "foreign entity"?

we are under the dominion and power of the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air who operates in or influences in the children of iniquity. Jesus said the entire world lies in the power of the evil one.

 

[Diserner]

we are under the dominion and power of the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air who operates in or influences in the children of iniquity. Jesus said the entire world lies in the power of the evil one.

Might be polite to let another person speak for themselves.

So Satan is our "carnal self" that overpowers our inherently good nature?

Is this your position Eve?

I might point out that "self" by definition is referencing one's own identity as contrasted with another.

 

[civic]

Might be polite to let another person speak for themselves.

So Satan is our "carnal self" that overpowers are inherently good nature?

Is this your position Eve?

I might point out that "self" by definition is referencing one's own identity as contrasted with another.

I don't think she wants to engage certain people and feels personally attacked, but I have known her long enough to not misunderstand what she means. I can tell you if she were to read what I said she would agree with me.

Some are possessed and some are oppressed but all are influenced by the evil one.

 

[e v e]

we are under the dominion and power of the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air who operates in or influences in the children of iniquity. Jesus said the entire world lies in the power of the evil one.

yes that is true...
but soon that will be over... that is exactly what I meant....

 

[e v e]

C.S. Lewis wrote a worthwhile to read book about it..
called The Screwtape Letters.

 

[e v e]

when adam listened to satan and not to God,
and this actually has had much commentary,
he went into a different mindset, of carnality...
so not any longer IN Christ, but, IN the sin Nature...

Such that the Self, and all its needs and wants, that sin nature,
now ruled the soul, rather than God... so a different deity
if you will, was leading him,
(though the self is not a deity of course but tries to take
that position, and influence the soul, in defiance of God).

God had warned him of that, as DEATH, as we see in Gen. 3,
but adam did not listen and betrayed God...
and bringing all of us down with him.

 

[e v e]

I don't think she wants to engage certain people and feels personally attacked, but I have known her long enough to not misunderstand what she means. I can tell you if she were to read what I said she would agree with me.

Some are possessed and some are oppressed but all are influenced by the evil one.

civic,
One reason I decided not to do debating and quote walls,
is that I understood as a female, that was not my job regarding
our situation on this earth, in the family of us Christians,
but that, that is for the sons to inquire of Him and to
understand... and because of that, though of course
I share what I understand, because I want to comfort
and uplift every soul I can, I try not to get into the
debate style... and leave that to the men... : )

it has its down side since it can be upsetting if I did not
do a big exegetical breakdown and rather instead
just say an opinion I have and leave it to you to
break it out in details or to disagree with...
and of course it makes me seem not to know anything..
though that is not true.

I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but I don't like arguing
especially if it has a hostile undercurrent...
since it creates an offense-defense situation
which I think is better for me not to get into.

 

[Obadiah]

civic,
One reason I decided not to do debating and quote walls,
is that I understood as a female, that was not my job regarding
our situation on this earth, in the family of us Christians,
but that, that is for the sons to inquire of Him and to
understand... and because of that, though of course
I share what I understand, because I want to comfort
and uplift every soul I can, I try not to get into the
debate style... and leave that to the men... : )

it has its down side since it can be upsetting if I did not
do a big exegetical breakdown and rather instead
just say an opinion I have and leave it to you to
break it out in details or to disagree with...
and of course it makes me seem not to know anything..
though that is not true.

I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but I don't like arguing
especially if it has a hostile undercurrent...
since it creates an offense-defense situation
which I think is better for me not to get into.

Just be yourself and don't worry, we got your back!

 

[Obadiah]

when adam listened to satan and not to God,
and this actually has had much commentary,
he went into a different mindset, of carnality...
so not any longer IN Christ, but, IN the sin Nature...

Such that the Self, and all its needs and wants, that sin nature,
now ruled the soul, rather than God... so a different deity
if you will, was leading him,
(though the self is not a deity of course but tries to take
that position, and influence the soul, in defiance of God).

God had warned him of that, as DEATH, as we see in Gen. 3,
but adam did not listen and betrayed God...
and bringing all of us down with him.

Must be getting tired I thought you said when Admin listened to Satan. I thought we were going to have to have a talk with him.

 

[e v e]

also, the definition of npsh in Hebrew
relates to the type of nature we had in eden,
as expressed in early chapters of the OT...
a dissertation was done on the term...
and it was found NOT to sync with the term psuche..
of the Greek... since for Hebrew, the soul and body
are not separable in the context before the fall..
but are one being... and nature...

the Greeks only know about and refer to
the body with hatred... Plato's phaedo dialogue case in point...
(since they hate any 'body', this flesh one, and
aristotle views it as an 'accidental' cause!)

(the Greeks knew nothing of a glorified body - npsh - in paradise)

So for the Greeks, psuche is only a MIND, which they associated with the SOUL!
Thus a denatured being, separated from a body!

The Hebrew term npsh means soul, body, the whole being, with no separable
distinction....

So while psuche is used as a synonym in translation,
its use also causes confusions of meaning....
for the Greeks view the soul as a mind with no body,
and actually, it is a type of oversoul or DAEMON,
not the specific person at all...

there is no individual 'being' for the greeks.
Only material men, whose 'soul' is a god or daemon, or entity.

This any scholar can confirm. I will post a link to that dissertation.
The dissertation is of average quality, however its value is that it gives every single
use of the term npsh in it... and every use of psuche in scripture and compares
when these are not synonymous and finds
that the Hebrew term npsh (soul) is NOT
psuche. And I do agree on that.

 

[Administrator]

Must be getting tired I thought you said when Admin listened to Satan. I thought we were going to have to have a talk with him.

What you talking about Willis.

 

[e v e]

Here is that dissertation. It's an old one and was a masters not phd paper. It can be downloaded.

The concept of the soul in Plato and in early Judeo-Christian thought

open.bu.edu

 

[e v e]

All that I wrote, defies T, because T assumes the soul herself is depraved..
when in fact, the foreign entity leading the soul is depraved....
and bullies the soul to obey it.. and oppresses the soul.

And, it is not possible the soul would be intrinsically depraved..
since God created the soul! God does not create Depravity!! What can be said
is that the soul acquired a different nature which began to lead her...
and that there was a corruption after the fall, for now the soul and body
no longer fit the Hebrew version of one undivided being...
because of Adam.

 

[e v e]

Must be getting tired I thought you said when Admin listened to Satan. I thought we were going to have to have a talk with him.

Let's not get the Admin in trouble!!!

 

[Diserner]

Jesus said "you being evil give good gifts" and "no one is good."

Jesus did not say good people were forced to be bad by the devil.

Paul said "in my flesh is no good thing" and "all have fallen short of God's glory."

Let's avoid self-righteousness that blames all our personal sin on the devil alone, and admit we are the sinners we are, as the Bible tells us.

And Jesus "has my back" so a far better and more faithful supporter to many unjust claims on here.

 

[Diserner]

I don't think she wants to engage certain people and feels personally attacked

And yet has unjustly accused and attacked the very people she blames.

If a person does not want to "engage" they should stop responding with accusatory posts, shouldn't they.

That is the very definition of "engagement."