Trying to understand Dispensationalism

[Complete]

Yes, I'm familiar with Apostle Paul's "blessed hope" of Titus 2:13, which the Pre-trib Rapture doctors abuse to make you think to exclude Christ's commandment to WATCH the SIGNS of the end He gave leading up to His coming so we would not be deceived.

Which is better then, just a 'hope' that we won't be deceived, or knowing what is coming that Jesus told us so we won't be deceived?

We cannot just 'hope' we will be among the five wise virgins of Matthew 25 that had the SPARE VESSEL of OIL (Holy Spirit). Jesus showed what will happen to those five foolish virgins that didn't get the spare vessel of The Oil. And what did Jesus show The Holy Spirit Comforter is for? to teach us all things (John 14:26).

'Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;'
(Tit 2:13) KJV

* Please compare:-

'waiting for our blessed hope,
the appearing of the glory
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,'
(Tit 2:13) ESV

Hello @DavP,

There is nothing uncertain in regard to the word 'hope' in Titus 2:13, as you suggest. It's great object is the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, which is without doubt. This is the substance of the hope referred to.

Not two things here but one. Our hope is the glory of the appearing. The appearing of the great God, yes - even our Saviour Jesus Christ (ie., our Divine Saviour).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Ref:- replies #53.#55.#60 (Page 3)

Hello @JD731,

I agree with your definition of dispensationalism, and applaud your obvious adherence to the principle of 2 Timothy 2:15, and the depth of study you have made into this subject: but am not in complete agreement with 'some' of your conclusions; yet do not want to enter into dialogue on these differences on an open forum. I am an Acts 28 dispensationalist, and this may be the reason we are not totally in harmony on certain things,
sadly, but I praise God for your input.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[JD731]

Ref:- replies #53.#55.#60 (Page 3)

Hello @JD731,

I agree with your definition of dispensationalism, and applaud your obvious adherence to the principle of 2 Timothy 2:15, and the depth of study you have made into this subject: but am not in complete agreement with 'some' of your conclusions; yet do not want to enter into dialogue on these differences on an open forum. I am an Acts 28 dispensationalist, and this may be the reason we are not totally in harmony on certain things,
sadly, but I praise God for your input.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

It is okay to disagree on things, complete. I do not even know what an Acts 28 dispensationalist is. so I do not know if I disagree or agree.

 

[DavP]

Hello @DavP,

If you want to discuss anything with me you do so in a civil manner.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I assure you, I was being most... civil to you, but to those false Pre-trib Rapture theory preachers, I will not... ever be civil to. So you really should note the difference between someone who actually cares about your soul and doesn't want you to be deceived vs. the charlatans behind the false Pre-trib Rapture theory who would rather lead you to the devil.

 

[DavP]

'Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;'
(Tit 2:13) KJV

* Please compare:-

'waiting for our blessed hope,
the appearing of the glory
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,'
(Tit 2:13) ESV

Hello @DavP,

There is nothing uncertain in regard to the word 'hope' in Titus 2:13, as you suggest.

Now you are just making up fibs that I NEVER said. And you want me to be civil with you?

You mean you cannot compare what Paul said with "our blessed hope" in Christ's future coming with the SIGNS Lord Jesus COMMANDED us to be watching so as to not be deceived???

Mark 13:35-37
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
KJV

 

[Complete]

I assure you, I was being most... civil to you, but to those false Pre-trib Rapture theory preachers, I will not... ever be civil to. So you really should note the difference between someone who actually cares about your soul and doesn't want you to be deceived vs. the charlatans behind the false Pre-trib Rapture theory who would rather lead you to the devil.

Hi @DavP,

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Sounds like there are only 2 options. You are a Dispensationalist. Or you are not one. That seems very limiting. I've always held John Macarthur in high regard. I listened to him regularly for years. I don't agree with everything he says. But this video I found is on his explanations of dispensations. I really like how he approaches things. That is balanced. And Biblical.

 

[Rockson]

Covenant theology has the framework of interpretation as covenant, as we see God always having a relationship with mankind through covenant, not dispensations.

So how would your Covenant theology be different then what dispensationalists believe. They believe God works through covenant too. I know I do so I'm not sure what you're meaning.

 

[Rockson]

I don't want to argue about it, but I disagree that it is not a salvation issue. The pre-trib rapture theory is what will lead many brethren to bow to the wrong Christ.

So why would it do that?

 

[Behold]

. the charlatans behind the false Pre-trib Rapture theory who would rather lead you to the devil.

Explain how a pre-trib rapture theology believer, would lead you to the devil, as you just stated.

In fact, its the Devil who comes to control this world in the Trib-Grt Trib, and the Pre-Trib, leads you out of that, not into it.

So, it would be the Mid-Tribbers or Post-Tribbers who lead you to the DEVIL, as they both teach the Bride of Christ will be there with the Devil.

 

[Bronson]

I love this! It stirs me to the core to have the Lord promise:

“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the world” (Revelation 3:10).

The Lord has a special plan that will keep all true believers from the worldwide tribulation which is to come!

The “hour of trial” the Great Tribulation. Notice He does not say, “I will keep you through the hour of trial,” but “from the hour of trial.” This refers to the Rapture, when Jesus will catch away God’s people for Himself. If you are pre-Tribulational in your beliefs, and can clearly see in this promise that the church will not go through the Tribulation. How can the clarity of this promise be explained any other way?

 

[DavP]

Explain how a pre-trib rapture theology believer, would lead you to the devil, as you just stated.

In fact, its the Devil who comes to control this world in the Trib-Grt Trib, and the Pre-Trib, leads you out of that, not into it.

So, it would be the Mid-Tribbers or Post-Tribbers who lead you to the DEVIL, as they both teach the Bride of Christ will be there with the Devil.

OK, for you and @Rockson :


The following Matthew 24:23-26 warning by Lord Jesus about the 'end' is about a 'singular' false-Messiah coming to play Christ. The KJV translators, and all English Bible translations, brought the Greek word pseudochristos into English as "false Christs", or "fake Messiahs", etc., and that has caused many to wrongly interpret that to mean Apostle John's "many antichrists" idea of 1 John 2:18, just because of the translators making that plural.

However, 1 John 2:18 has TWO 'antichrist' clauses. The first clause is about a 'singular' "antichrist" that John said the brethren had already heard shall come. The second clause was the fact that there are already "many antichrists" at work. Thus there is 'the Antichrist', and then the 'many antichrists' which are workers for the Antichrist.

But with the Matthew 24:23 & 26 verses, it is easy to see that the translators made that in the 'singular' tense about a singular false one coming as The Christ...

Matt 24:23
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
KJV

Matt 24:25-26
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

The Matthew 24:24 verse that uses Greek pseudochristos for "false Christs", that Greek word is actually 2 words in the Greek -- Greek pseudo for 'false' and Greek christos which means Christ, singular.

Then what is the context of that Matthew 24:24 verse about "false Christs"? Will the end of this world for the time of great tribulation involve many that work those "great signs and wonders", that "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."? Where is the parallel Scripture linked to that future event for the tribulation?

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV


Here is the parallel Scripture to that coming event at the end in Jerusalem with the Antichrist-false-Messiah that is coming to play Jesus Christ...

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

That is the same "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thess.2 that must... come first, before Lord Jesus returns to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. That false one sitting in the "temple of God" (a 3rd rebuilt stone temple in Jerusalem for the end), will cause the whole world to worship him in place of God.

Since Lord Jesus included the idea of that coming false Messiah mimicking His Role as Messiah, that is HOW we can know that the falling away which Apostle Paul pointed to in 2 Thess.2 is not simply about not going to Church anymore. It is about being fooled by the "great signs and wonders" and led into bowing to that coming false-Messiah with thinking he is The Christ having returned.

So ask yourself, just how... powerful in deception would that false-Messiah's working of "great signs and wonders" have to be, just to almost... deceive even Christ's very elect?? Christ's very elect cannot be deceived, but that's not Lord Jesus' point. His point is the level of power to deceive which those miracles will have, that would almost deceive His servants that He has already sealed. So what might it do to those believers on Lord Jesus that are not yet sealed, not His very elect, but just called believers?

That is what the great tribulation at the end will actually be about. Not all out war. It will be a time of deception that this world has never seen before, nor ever will see again.

And the fact that men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly teaches to be the first one to 'fly away' with being TAKEN, and Jesus showed His servants are NOT the first ones TAKEN, then that reveals what the Pre-trib Rapture theory is designed for, i.e., to cause the deceived to think that first supernatural one coming will be our Lord Jesus Christ. (See Jesus' answer in Luke 17:37 to His disciples' question of where the first one is TAKEN. Then see the parallel verse in Matthew 24:28 which Jesus gave about that.)

 

[DavP]

I love this! It stirs me to the core to have the Lord promise:

“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the world” (Revelation 3:10).

The Lord has a special plan that will keep all true believers from the worldwide tribulation which is to come!

The “hour of trial” the Great Tribulation. Notice He does not say, “I will keep you through the hour of trial,” but “from the hour of trial.” This refers to the Rapture, when Jesus will catch away God’s people for Himself. If you are pre-Tribulational in your beliefs, and can clearly see in this promise that the church will not go through the Tribulation. How can the clarity of this promise be explained any other way?

You cannot... simply insert a physical fly away escape plan into that Revelation 3:10 verse. That is NOT what that is about.

Jesus said that to the Church at Philadelphia, one of the 2 candlesticks that is to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast during the coming great tribulation. The other candlestick is represented by the Church of Smyrna. It was only those 2 Churches in Asia that Jesus had NO rebuke for, and to the Church of Philadelphia, He is pointing to how He set on "open door" before them that no man can shut, which is associated with the subject of the "key of David"...

Rev 3:7-11
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He That is holy, He That is true, He That hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
KJV


To be subject to that "hour of temptation" means TO BE DECEIVED BY THE COMING FALSE-MESSIAH.

It does NOT mean a physical escape like the false Pre-trib Rapture theory school wrongly teaches.

Haven't you guys ever wondered what the manifesting of the 'cloven tongue' is really for at the end of this world which Peter quoted from the Book of Joel on Pentecost?

Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

How are we going to give that TESTIMONY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR CHRIST during the coming "great tribulation" if we are raptured prior to the tribulation??

I'm not pulling any punches here; I'm showing what Christ and His Apostles pointed to for the end of this world, and the duty many in Christ have for the coming tribulation time. This ain't simply about Jews in Jerusalem either, even as Jesus shows with the "two candlesticks" which represent His very elect two Churches even for the end of this world.

So who will you be found with when Jesus comes, those two Churches that represent His sealed elect that cannot be deceived by the coming false-Christ, or the five Churches that He had rebuke for which represent the majority of Churches that will be deceived during the coming great tribulation?

 

[civic]

You cannot... simply insert a physical fly away escape plan into that Revelation 3:10 verse. That is NOT what that is about.

Jesus said that to the Church at Philadelphia, one of the 2 candlesticks that is to give a TESTIMONY for Jesus against the beast during the coming great tribulation. The other candlestick is represented by the Church of Smyrna. It was only those 2 Churches in Asia that Jesus had NO rebuke for, and to the Church of Philadelphia, He is pointing to how He set on "open door" before them that no man can shut, which is associated with the subject of the "key of David"...

Rev 3:7-11
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He That is holy, He That is true, He That hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
KJV


To be subject to that "hour of temptation" means TO BE DECEIVED BY THE COMING FALSE-MESSIAH.

It does NOT mean a physical escape like the false Pre-trib Rapture theory school wrongly teaches.

Haven't you guys ever wondered what the manifesting of the 'cloven tongue' is really for at the end of this world which Peter quoted from the Book of Joel on Pentecost?

Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

How are we going to give that TESTIMONY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT FOR CHRIST during the coming "great tribulation" if we are raptured prior to the tribulation??

I'm not pulling any punches here; I'm showing what Christ and His Apostles pointed to for the end of this world, and the duty many in Christ have for the coming tribulation time. This ain't simply about Jews in Jerusalem either, even as Jesus shows with the "two candlesticks" which represent His very elect two Churches even for the end of this world.

So who will you be found with when Jesus comes, those two Churches that represent His sealed elect that cannot be deceived by the coming false-Christ, or the five Churches that He had rebuke for which represent the majority of Churches that will be deceived during the coming great tribulation?

The gospel will be preached to the entire world through the 144k from the 12 tribes of Israel. Not through the church. See Revelation 14:1-6 where the everlasting gospel is preached to all mankind during the tribulation.

 

[DavP]

The gospel will be preached to the entire world through the 144k from the 12 tribes of Israel. Not through the church. See Revelation 14:1-6 where the everlasting gospel is preached to all mankind during the tribulation.

That idea is yet another... deception by the false Pre-trib Rapture theory school. Why?

Because all... of those 144,000 of Rev.7 represent Israelites in Christ Jesus, which definitely... means His Church. The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 represent the believing Gentiles in Christ. The whole Chapter is about God's servants that are 'sealed'.

Do you know what that Rev.7 'sealing' is about?

 

[DavP]

Anyway... the absolute Biblical proof... that those who heed man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory are believing a false doctrine is with what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation.

Those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory who refuse to believe Lord Jesus there in His Own Word in those Scripture proofs certainly won't bother to listen to me or anyone else trying to warn them.

 

[civic]

That idea is yet another... deception by the false Pre-trib Rapture theory school. Why?

Because all... of those 144,000 of Rev.7 represent Israelites in Christ Jesus, which definitely... means His Church. The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 represent the believing Gentiles in Christ. The whole Chapter is about God's servants that are 'sealed'.

Do you know what that Rev.7 'sealing' is about?

Rev says they ( the Jews- 144k ) will preach the everlasting gospel to all mankind. You can accept it or reject the plain truth of the passage don’t shoot the messenger

 

[DavP]

Rev says they ( the Jews- 144k ) will preach the everlasting gospel to all mankind. You can accept it or reject the plain truth if the passage don’t shoot the messenger

I reject that made-up idea from pre-trib rapture preachers. That idea is nowhere written in God's Word. If it were, you would have already shown us the Scripture. But you cannot show Scripture, but only speculation on some Scriptures.

The Revelation 7 chapter is very clear that God is telling the four angels to hold back the four winds until God's servants are 'sealed' with God's seal. Then 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel listed there are mentioned being sealed. The later mention of the "great multitude" shows they had been sealed also for the end, and overcame by The Blood of The Lamb. And we know the 144,000 overcome by Jesus Christ too, because they too are standing next to Jesus after His coming per Rev.14.

Per Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:22, that 'sealing' is about being sealed with The Holy Spirit, and that means Christians! The Revelation 9 chapter revealed what that 'sealing' for the end is about, as Christ also revealed it in the Mark 13 chapter about some of us being delivered up at the end of this world to be a TESTIMONY for Him.

No use in fighting against this. Those in Christ are not going anywhere until Jesus returns AFTER the tribulation like He said. Jesus expects us to be prepared by The Holy Spirit to make a spiritual stand against the beast during the coming tribulation.

 

[civic]

I reject that made-up idea from pre-trib rapture preachers. That idea is nowhere written in God's Word. If it were, you would have already shown us the Scripture. But you cannot show Scripture, but only speculation on some Scriptures.

The Revelation 7 chapter is very clear that God is telling the four angels to hold back the four winds until God's servants are 'sealed' with God's seal. Then 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel listed there are mentioned being sealed. The later mention of the "great multitude" shows they had been sealed also for the end, and overcame by The Blood of The Lamb. And we know the 144,000 overcome by Jesus Christ too, because they too are standing next to Jesus after His coming per Rev.14.

Per Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:22, that 'sealing' is about being sealed with The Holy Spirit, and that means Christians! The Revelation 9 chapter revealed what that 'sealing' for the end is about, as Christ also revealed it in the Mark 13 chapter about some of us being delivered up at the end of this world to be a TESTIMONY for Him.

No use in fighting against this. Those in Christ are not going anywhere until Jesus returns AFTER the tribulation like He said. Jesus expects us to be prepared by The Holy Spirit to make a spiritual stand against the beast during the coming tribulation.

I never mentioned pre trib as I’m talking about the gospel preached by the 144k Jews reaching all mankind fulfilling Jesus promise of the great commission in Matthew 28:19-20.

Address my argument I’m making.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DavP]

I never mentioned pre true mob as I’m talking about the gospel preached by the 144k Jews reaching all mankind fulfilling Jesus promise of the great commission in Matthew 28:19-20.

Address my argument I’m making.

hope this helps !!!

Show me Bible Scripture that proves your point, instead of just pushing ideas from the pre-trib school.

The Great Commission is for ALL CHRISTIANS involving the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you throw that out as your proof about the 144,000? Doing that is what I meant by being in 'speculation' mode.

You said the 144,000 will preach The Gospel to all mankind, but NOT through the Church. So show the Bible Scripture that proves that.

So address the argument I had already... before made.