I have no need to discuss anything deeper with a person who refuses to believe what plural pronouns mean.
Trinitarianism verses Modalism debate
- Thread starter TomL
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I have no need to discuss anything deeper with a person who refuses to believe what plural pronouns mean.
101G
Well-known member
101G did not ask to discuss anything with you...... read before you reply ... ok. now listen, 101G want to KNOW has the trinity doctrine changed. for a statement has been made that now.... all three of your persons in your trinity now all your persons holds the title "LORD", (all cap). 101G just want to get a conformation if this is now your trinity doctrine addition? that's all so, either a yes or no is only required.
thanks in advance.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
To all trinitarians, and @TomL
Now that a NEW ANGLE has been introduce, all three persons are the "LORD". the Father is LORD, the Son is LORD, and the Holy Spirit is LORD.
scripture, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" ok, ..... ONE LORD..... Hmmmmm now this, Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" well that just shot in the foot that all three PERSON(S) are the LORD. and this, Isaiah 45:6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." that three person "LORD" is just not working. one more. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." so now we have three saviors. ..... what a mess.
101G.
Now that a NEW ANGLE has been introduce, all three persons are the "LORD". the Father is LORD, the Son is LORD, and the Holy Spirit is LORD.
scripture, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" ok, ..... ONE LORD..... Hmmmmm now this, Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" well that just shot in the foot that all three PERSON(S) are the LORD. and this, Isaiah 45:6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." that three person "LORD" is just not working. one more. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." so now we have three saviors. ..... what a mess.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
@TomL, since you cannot answer Post #139 as to who this Revelation Letter is from, 101G will answer post #139 for you. for 101G motto is "Where there is KNOWLEDGE, stay not IGNORANT". so 101G have U not IGNORANT..... ok.
let the scriptures fall where they may. John is giving us a clear vetting process as to who the one person that sent this letter to the seven churches, via (him) John. Remember this is a revelation of …. Jesus the Christ.
ONLY "ONE" person holds all these identifying Appellation, or Epithet, which are mention in the above post. this changes the whole dynamic of the book as we once believed, and the way we should read and understand this book. If the Lord Jesus holds all these identifying Appellation, or Epithet then one will have to consider what they believe. but leaving that alone, Lets follow the Appellation, and or the Epithet/titles and see if this is the one same person.
#1. him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come". is this the Lord Jesus? yes,
Evidence #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”. So the “which is, and which was, and which is to come” is A. the Almighty, B. the Alpha and the Omega, and C. who is the Lord Jesus. so, Person #1 is the Lord Jesus. but lets contuine.
Evidence #2. Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come”. Again the which is, and which was, and which is to come is the Lord God Almighty. this is the Lord Jesus again Identified as the which is, and which was, and which is to come”.
Evidence #3. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned".
So clearly we see that him, “which art, and wast, and art to come“, it the Lord God Almighty. which is the Lord JESUS?
#2. the “Seven Spirits”. is this the Lord Jesus also?
Evidence #1. Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. We know that this is the Lord Jesus who is addressing the church in Sardis, and he, the “Lord” Jesus said that he has the “Seven Spirits”.
Evidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESUS. for he stood/resurrected.
Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last, which we know now is the Lord Jesus.
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the only one who was dead and live evermore is the Lord JESUS.
So the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty...... JESUS.
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS.
And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus. who is the which is, and which was, and which is to come and he is also the the seven Spirits of God.
The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no Modalism here. what's not here is three separate and distinct persons.... called "LORD" ... Oh my
YIKES! THIS IS NOT 101G, no, BUT THE BIBLE. if one just follow the scriptures, and ....... BELIEVE the scriptures, then one will never go wrong.
101G.
let the scriptures fall where they may. John is giving us a clear vetting process as to who the one person that sent this letter to the seven churches, via (him) John. Remember this is a revelation of …. Jesus the Christ.
ONLY "ONE" person holds all these identifying Appellation, or Epithet, which are mention in the above post. this changes the whole dynamic of the book as we once believed, and the way we should read and understand this book. If the Lord Jesus holds all these identifying Appellation, or Epithet then one will have to consider what they believe. but leaving that alone, Lets follow the Appellation, and or the Epithet/titles and see if this is the one same person.
#1. him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come". is this the Lord Jesus? yes,
Evidence #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”. So the “which is, and which was, and which is to come” is A. the Almighty, B. the Alpha and the Omega, and C. who is the Lord Jesus. so, Person #1 is the Lord Jesus. but lets contuine.
Evidence #2. Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come”. Again the which is, and which was, and which is to come is the Lord God Almighty. this is the Lord Jesus again Identified as the which is, and which was, and which is to come”.
Evidence #3. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned".
So clearly we see that him, “which art, and wast, and art to come“, it the Lord God Almighty. which is the Lord JESUS?
#2. the “Seven Spirits”. is this the Lord Jesus also?
Evidence #1. Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. We know that this is the Lord Jesus who is addressing the church in Sardis, and he, the “Lord” Jesus said that he has the “Seven Spirits”.
Evidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESUS. for he stood/resurrected.
Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last, which we know now is the Lord Jesus.
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the only one who was dead and live evermore is the Lord JESUS.
So the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty...... JESUS.
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS.
And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus. who is the which is, and which was, and which is to come and he is also the the seven Spirits of God.
The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no Modalism here. what's not here is three separate and distinct persons.... called "LORD" ... Oh my
YIKES! THIS IS NOT 101G, no, BUT THE BIBLE. if one just follow the scriptures, and ....... BELIEVE the scriptures, then one will never go wrong.101G.
I fear for your sanity. You ignored point after point
And you did not deal with the evidence presented
They are differentiated here
Father and Son are two persons
1. The saluations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; James 1:1; 2 Peter 1:2; 2 John 3; Phm 1:3
2 . Two witnesses; John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; compare Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15.
3. The Father sent the Son: John 3:17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; compare John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21.
4. The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 14:31; 17:23-26
5. The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41 -42; 12:28; 17:126; etc.
Notice in particular
John 8:17–18 (NIV) — 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
You appealed to Echad but it does not support you
Genesis 2:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
where two persons are referred to
Then also your appeal to allos
Bible Search for lemma.g:ἄλλος
Matt 2:12
King James Version
And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Matt 4:21
King James Version
And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Matt 5:39
King James Version
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matt 8:9
King James Version
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Matt 10:23
King James Version
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matt 12:13
King James Version
Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Matt 13:5
King James Version
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Matt 13:7
King James Version
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Matt 13:8
King James Version
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Matt 13:24
King James Version
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matt 13:31
King James Version
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matt 13:33
King James Version
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Matt 16:14
King James Version
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Matt 19:9
King James Version
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matt 20:3
King James Version
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
Matt 20:6
King James Version
And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
Matt 21:8
King James Version
And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
Matt 21:33
King James Version
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Matt 21:36
King James Version
Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Matt 21:41
King James Version
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Matt 22:4
King James Version
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Matt 25:16
King James Version
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
Matt 25:17
King James Version
And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
Matt 25:20
King James Version
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Matt 25:22
King James Version
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Matt 26:71
King James Version
And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
Matt 27:42
King James Version
He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Matt 27:61
King James Version
And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
Matt 28:1
King James Version
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
it never refers to one thing or one person
but
Revelation 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
end pt1
Yes
Not needed. I posted elsewhere identifying Jesus as the Almighty of
Revelation 1:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
based on
Revelation 22:12–16 (KJV 1900) — 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Again agree Christ is coming
No disagreement
Has not is
Nothing there stating Jesus is the fatherEvidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESUS. for he stood/resurrected.
Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last, which we know now is the Lord Jesus.
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the only one who was dead and live evermore is the Lord JESUS.
So the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty...... JESUS.
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS.
And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus. who is the which is, and which was, and which is to come and he is also the the seven Spirits of God.
The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no Modalism here. what's not here is three separate and distinct persons.... called "LORD" ... Oh my
101G.
and the lamb is seen in addition to God
that is two no matter how you slice it
Revelation 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
That is echad
Remember your diversified oneness
The same word is used here
Genesis 2:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
One flesh
consisting of man and woman - two persons
I told you all this previously
yes 101g's view
diversigfied oneness is not one person
How many times do I need to point out echad is not a reference to a numerical one
Genesis 2:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
one (echad) flesh consisting of man and woman - two persons
The father speaking of the son
Acts 2:33–36 (KJV 1900) — 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
again that is two
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
is that an echad in 243 Allos or G2087 heteros? ... LOL, LOL, LOL, Oh my....
When will they ever LEARN...101G.
101G
Well-known member
as 101G been saying is that an ECHAD of G243 Allos or an Echad of G2087 heteros .......
When will they ever Learn101G
PS use the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words to understand this ECHAD of "ONE".
101G
Wake u . None of them support youas 101G been saying is that an ECHAD of G243 Allos or an Echad of G2087 heteros .......
101G
PS use the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words to understand this ECHAD of "ONE".
101G
echad is used of two persons being one flesh
allos never equates the one with the other
The words do not support you as was shownis that an echad in 243 Allos or G2087 heteros? ... LOL, LOL, LOL, Oh my....
101G.
Neither Echad or allos
101G
Well-known member
Earth to hell, it's ONE PERSON, LISTEN, ... LEARN
Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
attention.... attention..... is this two persons? no, but do not "WITH" indicate "ANOTHER?" yes, the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE in G243 ALLOS, and not G2087 heteros. and here is the answer in the BIBLE.... Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
"ALSO" means ... "in addition; too" the First is also the Last..... that's "Diversity Oneness".
101G.
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
as long as the Lord Jesus and all who ... TRULLY ... follow him do..... (smile)......
YIKES! why worry about a Lost few... (smile). 101G love this.101G.
You never dealt with the evidenceas long as the Lord Jesus and all who ... TRULLY ... follow him do..... (smile)......
101G.
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