Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[TedT]

Doubtful, but faith requires a basis in scripture. I do not see that you have it

Does your refusal to rebut the verses I stand upon mean you have not looked so you cannot see?

 

[Rockson]

Again, show me why my faith should not be in the verses I use because the words cannot support pce. You do it for the Calvinists and others, why not us few PCEers. You disdain PCE as any kind of theology but you haven't looked into it enough to understand it nor do you rebut it....

Show me why you should spend your time even bringing things like this up causing unnecessary controversy and weird speculation where God never even came close to bringing up as a subject to be discussed in the scriptures?

 

[TomL]

Does your refusal to rebut the verses I stand upon mean you have not looked so you cannot see?

Um no verse you quoted proves your theology

 

[TomL]

Again, show me why my faith should not be in the verses I use because the words cannot support pce. You do it for the Calvinists and others, why not us few PCEers. You disdain PCE as any kind of theology but you haven't looked into it enough to understand it nor do you rebut it....

None of the verses you quote prove PCE and the bible does not speak of it

 

[TedT]

Show me why you should spend your time even bringing things like this up causing unnecessary controversy and weird speculation where God never even came close to bringing up as a subject to be discussed in the scriptures?

I spend my time with this because the Spirit who converted me to Christian theology and brought me to Christ, taught me the Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) interpretation of Christian theology and I decided to share it and hopefully to be sharpened in it by others...a plan I can say which has born fruit for me.

 

[TomL]

I spend my time with this because the Spirit who converted me to Christian theology and brought me to Christ, taught me the Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) interpretation of Christian theology and I decided to share it and hopefully to be sharpened in it by others...a plan I can say which has born fruit for me.

Well I do not see the Spirit who inspired scripture did any such thing

so I see no grounds to believe it

 

[TedT]

Um no verse you quoted proves your theology

No verse proves your Arminianism but it does give you faith it is more true than Calvinism...

I agree no one verse proves PCE theology but I do feel that the over 3 dozen verses I see as support for accepting PCE as more pointedly true than most orthodox theologies are enough for my faith.

 

[TomL]

No verse proves your Arminianism but it does give you faith it is more true than Calvinism...

I agree no one verse proves PCE theology but I do feel that the over 3 dozen verses I see as support for accepting PCE as more pointedly true than most orthodox theologies are enough for my faith.

You are entitled. I just do not agree

 

[Rockson]

I spend my time with this because the Spirit who converted me to Christian theology and brought me to Christ, taught me the Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) interpretation of Christian theology and I decided to share it and hopefully to be sharpened in it by others...a plan I can say which has born fruit for me.

So now you've appealed to infallibility by making this claim that God himself taught you this after all how can we question God. Sorry Ted but not a good way to bring forth a position. You're grabbing for a trump card that may not be yours to have.

 

[TomL]

So now you've appealed to infallibility by making this claim that God himself taught you this after all how can we question God. Sorry Ted but not a good way to bring forth a position. You're grabbing for a trump card that may not be yours to have.

Kind of like 88 reasons the rapture was in 1988

 

[TedT]

So now you've appealed to infallibility by making this claim that God himself taught you this after all how can we question God.

My post 1425 is NOT part of my apology for PCE...you asked me why it was important to me and I told you why then you denigrate me again. When will we get to an exegesis of scripture rather than bashing me?

 

[Rockson]

My post 1425 is NOT part of my apology for PCE...you asked me why it was important to me and I told you why then you denigrate me again. When will we get to an exegesis of scripture rather than bashing me?

I'm not doing that aggressive thing to you at all. I don't care what you claim you have done this, you claimed,

the Spirit who converted me to Christian theology and brought me to Christ, taught me the Pre-Conception Existence (PCE)

So these my statements below still stand as a fair critique of what you said,

So now you've appealed to infallibility by making this claim that God himself taught you this after all how can we question God. Sorry Ted but not a good way to bring forth a position. You're grabbing for a trump card that may not be yours to have.

 

[TomL]

I'm not doing that aggressive thing to you at all. I don't care what you claim you have done this, you claimed,

the Spirit who converted me to Christian theology and brought me to Christ, taught me the Pre-Conception Existence (PCE)

So these my statements below still stand as a fair critique of what you said,

So now you've appealed to infallibility by making this claim that God himself taught you this after all how can we question God. Sorry Ted but not a good way to bring forth a position. You're grabbing for a trump card that may not be yours to have.

I once was told by a guy who argued for full preterism position that he had a near death experience and God told him this was so. It did not matter what the scriptures stated to him.

 

[Rockson]

I once was told by a guy who argued for full preterism position that he had a near death experience and God told him this was so. It did not matter what the scriptures stated to him.

Yeah the scriptures' are the No 1 thing that has to matter and not whatever supernatural experience. I believe the Mormons do that as a practice. They tell a new comer now if you have doubts lets pray and God will give you a warm glow feeling and from that you can know that it's true. Such is not however the way to ascertain truth.

 

[TomL]

Yeah the scriptures' are the No 1 thing that has to matter and not whatever supernatural experience. I believe the Mormons do that as a practice. They tell a new comer now if you have doubts lets pray and God will give you a warm glow feeling and from that you can know that it's true. Such is not however the way to ascertain truth.

the burning in the bosom

 

[Rockson]

the burning in the bosom

Yeah that it. Wonder why the noble Bereans didn't go for that? Seems they wanted just the scriptures.

 

[TomL]

Yeah that it. Wonder why the noble Bereans didn't go for that? Seems they wanted just the scriptures.

Yep. Experiences if they do not line up with the scriptures are useless

 

[TomL]

I spend my time with this because the Spirit who converted me to Christian theology and brought me to Christ, taught me the Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) interpretation of Christian theology and I decided to share it and hopefully to be sharpened in it by others...a plan I can say which has born fruit for me.

These testifies against PCE

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Zechariah 12:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, Which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, And formeth the spirit of man within him.

 

[TedT]

These testifies against PCE

Only if you already reject PCE, eh?

Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

My contention that Matt 13:36-39 tells us that both the people of the kingdom and the people of the evil one are SOWN, ie, not created, into this world explains Gen 2:7 by telling us that it was by the breath (spirit?) of GOD that Adam was sown into his newly created body of dust. Nothing in this verse contends against my interpretation in the least...

Zechariah 12:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, Which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, And formeth the spirit of man within him.

formeth - Strong's Concordance: 3335.
yatsar: to form, fashion, frame, maker, potter, purpose
Probably identical with yatsar (through the squeezing into shape); ((compare yatsa')); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. Form a resolution) -- X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.

This is a bit better for your case than your last verse but forming the spirit of a man within him does not prove a creation...while the word sown in Matt 13:36-39 is NEVER used anywhere else to mean a creation but is only used to mean a scattering of seed into a field, so I will keep my faith in the PCE interpretation. Thanks for your effort...

 

[TomL]

Only if you already reject PCE, eh?


My contention that Matt 13:36-39 tells us that both the people of the kingdom and the people of the evil one are SOWN, ie, not created, into this world explains Gen 2:7 by telling us that it was by the breath (spirit?) of GOD that Adam was sown into his newly created body of dust. Nothing in this verse contends against my interpretation in the least...

That really does not address gen 2:7

Genesis 2:7 (NASB 2020) — 7 Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.

and teaches the soul was a special creation

and a parable should not be used the way you use it. It is not teaching about how God createdn

formeth - Strong's Concordance: 3335.
yatsar: to form, fashion, frame, maker, potter, purpose
Probably identical with yatsar (through the squeezing into shape); ((compare yatsa')); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. Form a resolution) -- X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.

This is a bit better for your case than your last verse but forming the spirit of a man within him does not prove a creation...while the word sown in Matt 13:36-39 is NEVER used anywhere else to mean a creation but is only used to mean a scattering of seed into a field, so I will keep my faith in the PCE interpretation. Thanks for your effort...

Zechariah 12:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, Which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, And formeth the spirit of man within him.

Sorry but the verse clearly teaches creation of the soul at the forming of man

and you continue to misuse a parable that is in no way teaching about how God created man


Zechariah 12:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, Which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, And formeth the spirit of man within him.

yatsar (יָצַר, 3335), “to form, mold, fashion.” A word common to Hebrew in all its periods, yatsar is used in modern Hebrew in the sense of “to produce,” or “to create.”

W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, and William White Jr., Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 86.

The same word is used here

Gen 2:7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


to speak of the creation of man