I'm lost...which claim is that?
Transmitting The Fallen Nature
- Thread starter Olde Tymer
- Start date
The bible does not support your pre-existent sinned previous to their earthly conception claims
Matthew 13:36–39 (KJV 1900) — 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
and it certainly does not appear in the reference scripture
What, ignoring this and the other verses I suggest are pertinent?
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It really helps if you use the correct terminology, right? Nothing is pre-existent as nothing can exist before it exists...
PCE refers to the theology, the interpretation of the bible, that references our pre-earth existence as spirits or to our pre-conception existence as spirits before we enter mankind when we are sown, not created into this world, Matt 13:36-39.
...hmmm, a strange silence, not even any crickets. But don't worry - I get that a lot.
Lets not play games.
You know what was being referred to.
An existence previous to our existence on earth
Rev 12:4-9
Revelation 12:4–9 (NIV) — 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
I can tell you there is nothing in the passage that necessitates your view concerning the spirits of men who would be conceived on Earth
That must be read into the passage. Stars appear to be a reference to angekic beings
Revelation 1:20 (ESV) — 20 As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Already done
they do nothing to prove your view
it has to be assumed
Good morning,
being faithful to the scriptures and theological definitions in language is being faithful for you but is playing games for me...?
You knew what was being stated and pretended you did not
The word 'nothing' is a bit rash...if you consider other verses thoughts about this topic.
I point out three things when I quote these verses:
1. that two groups of sinful spirit beings which you call angels are flung down into the earth. One group of sinners is scorned by Satan in his life and death fight against our Lord's army and the other group willingly enters this battle and lose it dramatically.
Angel does not mean any spirit being or any type of being though it is used that way but rather is more precisely a job description for a messenger from GOD. If referencing them without any metaphor, they are rather spirit or spiritual beings, ie, non-corporeal people, without bodies.
2. Satan flings a large group of spirit beings called stars to the earth His power over them indicates their sinfulness. If they were his dedicated followers, his angels, then they would have fought for him. They are different from the angels who did fight for him against GOD's army, probably by becoming sinful for different reason than rebuking YHWH as a liar and a false god.
Who might this group be? GOD's sheep with some faith in HIM going astray into sin comes to mind as different from those who have never believed (had any faith in HIM) so are condemned for their sins already as John 3:18 teaches us.
The parable of the weeds in Matt 13 make this separation of sinful groups very clear: the sinful people of the kingdom in this earth are NOT redeemed sinful followers of the evil one but are a separate group brought here by different means. They are brought here, sown here in His field of the world to live together until the harvest.
Rather than castigate me for getting this all wrong, maybe you will finally give us your interpretation of what the parable and its explanation mean to you?
3. The third thing is to realize that both groups of sinners are flung into sheol which is in the earth, that is, both the sinners Satan flung down and the sinners which Michael flung down.
We know that Sheol has upper and lower parts to it as per 2 Peter 2:4 so how does it damage the theology of the fall to consider that these sinners were separated into upper and lower rooms (so to speak) of Sheol? We know that the wicked come from Sheol to this earth because Psalm 9:17 teaches us they RETURN to Sheol upon their death while the saints who die enter the place called Abraham's bosom. Return is the actual word used in the Psalm and the kjv effort to deny its meaning by making it to appear to mean to turn aside, an opposite meaning to return, is dismayingly eisegetic.
Now to return is it ordinary meaning refers to going back to where you were before, to where you came from...proof enough for me to see that when Michael flung the satanic demons to earth, they first went into Sheol before the devil was allowed to sow them into the world, as explained in Matt 13:36-39. And, if them, why not HIS sheep who have gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, whom HE allowed to be flung into the earth by Satan???
It real simple. Post a verse which speaks of angels regarding ordinary men
We live by faith not by sight, ie proof. PCE has as much proof as Calvinism or
Arminianism or Catholicism or as Unitarianism as all theologies are products of interpretation of both scripture or reality, not proofs of reality...2 Cor 5:7, Rom 8:24, 2 Cor 4:19, and
Berean Standard Bible
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. ie, what we do not see as proven in this life.
I don't denigrate your faith but when you speak of proof as if I don't have it but you do, I remain skeptical.
Why would spirits within bodies be referred to as spirits who are not in bodily form???
The Black Swan fallacy is that if the evidence you demand is not given forthwith, then that is proof that the claim is false...yet logically the lack of evidence is NOT proof that the claim is false.
I provide evidence from other places, not any one verse.
Where is the ONE verse that proves that the Messiah would be divine?
Where is the ONE verse that proves that YHWH is a Trinity?
Where is the verse that proves the divine incarnation?
We, or rather, I, have faith in all these concepts to be true but I do not find them proven by any one verse but by the summation of the truth of many verses.
Why ask me to give what you do not expect you should give yourself?
I recognized that. I don't remember knowing a verse like that...You seem to be comfy putting your faith in what is not there. I prefer to put my faith in what I see to be there...
I answered why I do not have such a verse already, in post 1414.
Is there some reason you seek what you know is not in the bible rather than exegete what we do find in the bible, ie, the verses I reference which you seemingly ignore?
Actually it seems you are putting your faith in something which does not appear in scripture
Rockson
Well-known member
Living by faith is not stepping out into something which weird and something that is not substantial. What Jesus did on the cross has been clearly revealed and what Jesus is right now at the right hand of the Father has been clearly taught......and yet we haven't ourselves seen these things. We walk by faith because we know the record of all this is substantial. This PCE you're talking about and advocating is a dreamed up idea like a fable with no solid foundation to provide a solid confidence that it can be true.
Doubtful, but faith requires a basis in scripture. I do not see that you have it
Again, show me why my faith should not be in the verses I use because the words cannot support pce. You do it for the Calvinists and others, why not us few PCEers. You disdain PCE as any kind of theology but you haven't looked into it enough to understand it nor do you rebut it....
