Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[TedT]

Can a two-year-old baby who tragically dies in a car accident give this accounting of himself to God? Can the mentally handicapped?

This objection is eisegetically based upon facts not proven but only accepted, that is, that we are created at conception (or birth as some would have it) as sinners when the scripture is clear that ALL the sons of GOD saw the creation of the physical universe: Job 38:7.

IF the person was created innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to put HIS faith in YHWH's claims to be divine and the only saviour from sin
OR
to choose to reject HIS claims as lies and so to rebuke HIM as a false god,
then everyone who rejected HIM or rebelled against any command would be a sinner by their free will choice of faith, not by HIS will or determined plan.

As sinners they are accountable for every sin they have ever chosen either before they were sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, or after. Since only sinners are sown into this world then every person of every age is accountable and will be held accountable SINCE accountability is a product of their free will decision to sin NOT of their age when they die in their earthly life NOR THEIR EARTHLY UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR SITUATION.

 

[TedT]

John 15:22: “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.”

When did He speak to them, ie, all the people of the world??? For the whole world to be without excuse I think it had to be before everyone created in HIS image all saw the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7, when HE proclaimed HIS deity and the gospel to every creature ever created as mentioned in Col 1:23 at the very beginning of our existence as HE says in Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? These questions are obviously demand the answer of !YES! WE DID HEAR IT THEN!

More is provided on this topic of when everyone first heard the gospel in places like John's first letter:
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him [that is] from the beginning. It probably is not necessary but note that the worlds “that is” is not in the Greek text. Therefore, in Greek, it reads, “known Him from the beginning”. The words "that is" were exegetically added to correct the supposed wrong impression of this verse as alluding to our being already created at that time.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. It should be noted that in the Bible, “the beginning” usually refers to all the time and events that happened before Genesis 1:2, that is, the time when the angels were created and the rebellion in Paradise took place, 1 John 3:8 ...for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary(#27) says: “sinneth from the beginning - from the time that sin began; from the time that he became what he is, the devil.” This must be around the same time as In the beginning of Genesis 1:1. At least, it can not be much after. Verse 24 then implies we too heard that which the devil stumbled at and rejected as lies, ie, the deity of YHWH and the truth of the gospel, Col 1:23.

 

[TomL]

When did He speak to them, ie, all the people of the world??? For the whole world to be without excuse I think it had to be before everyone created in HIS image all saw the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7, when HE proclaimed HIS deity and the gospel to every creature ever created as mentioned in Col 1:23 at the very beginning of our existence as HE says in Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? These questions are obviously demand the answer of !YES! WE DID HEAR IT THEN!

um where has anyone stated he spoke to the whole world.

There is a principle involved. Without conscious knowledge of sin, it is not counted against you

John 15:22: “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

The verse must be addressed concerning who it was addressed to and applied to see how it relates to the topic under discussion

 

[TomL]

This objection is eisegetically based upon facts not proven but only accepted, that is, that we are created at conception (or birth as some would have it) as sinners when the scripture is clear that ALL the sons of GOD saw the creation of the physical universe: Job 38:7.

IF the person was created innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to put HIS faith in YHWH's claims to be divine and the only saviour from sin
OR
to choose to reject HIS claims as lies and so to rebuke HIM as a false god,
then everyone who rejected HIM or rebelled against any command would be a sinner by their free will choice of faith, not by HIS will or determined plan.

As sinners they are accountable for every sin they have ever chosen either before they were sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, or after. Since only sinners are sown into this world then every person of every age is accountable and will be held accountable SINCE accountability is a product of their free will decision to sin NOT of their age when they die in their earthly life NOR THEIR EARTHLY UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR SITUATION.

What free will decision have babies made to sin ?

 

[TedT]

um where has anyone stated he spoke to the whole world.

There is a principle involved. Without conscious knowledge of sin, it is not counted against you

Because the principle of fairness, not treating some people better than others, demands that if He speaks to some to save them, He must have spoken to all...and if they are not saved by His speaking, it is because they rejected His words as lies, by faith without proof.

Infants die.
Innocents do not die, except Christ.
Death follows sin, not life.
The unseeable knowledge of the twins in Rebecca's womb that had them to attempt murder makes it obvious that infants have a greater knowledge than it looks like to us. John heard Mary's voice while in the womb and knew exactly what that meant for his life.

Infants in the womb can even learn wisdom:
Berean Standard Bible
Ps 51:5 Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

6 Surely You desire truth [some say 'faith'] in the inmost being; You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
The bible does not support our common belief that infants are innocent nor that as just created they must be tabula rasa. ImCo, the infantilism we see is a product of our being sown, not created, into bodies which are not finished, not myelinated etc and which cannot be used by the intelligent, knowledgeable person who is put into it, who then, on the whole, forget who they are or what they know, at least superficially. One common feeling about our existence held by Christians is that when they die they will return home from whence they came even if their preachers preach against that...they know in their heart that to reach heaven is to go back home which they lost when they chose to go astray into sin:
Berean Standard Bible
1 Peter 2:25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls....we went astray, we were not created as astray!

 

[TedT]

What free will decision have babies made to sin ?

Preamble:
People, who before they were babies sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, chose to be sinful in the sight of GOD. IF this was not by their will but by GOD's will as creating them that way then they would have no sin as there would be no mens rea.

When GOD cleansed heaven of all sin by having all sinners flung - hurled down with animosity - to the prison planet earth, Rev 12:4-9, there were two distinct types of sinners mentioned.

First mentioned were the stars that Satan flung into the earth. These must have been sinners or Satan would have had no power over them but they were rejected by him as worthless in the coming battle with Michael et al, a perfect description of the sinful elect people of HIS kingdom who, though sinners, would not fight against HIM for Satan, that is, those who were sown into this world by the son of Man (Matt 13:36-39) to be redeemed, sanctified and made heaven ready to be HIS Bride.

Second were the Satanic demons, those who had sinned the unforgivable sin who were condemned already, Jn 3:18, flung into Sheol and tartarus, people of the evil one who are sown (not created) into this world by the devil.

What pre-earth sin did they sin?
The Satanic rejected YHWH's claims to deity and the gospel as lies and believed (put their faith in) HIM to be a false god.

The elect who accepted HIS claims to be divine and the only saviour from sinfulness, rebelled against HIS command to come out from among the Satanic reprobate so they could be judged, believing that love should never condemn but should only heal, not accepting that the sin of the satanic was unforgivable and irreversible and so having to learn this lesson the hard way, in life on earth.

 

[TomL]

Preamble:
People, who before they were babies sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, chose to be sinful in the sight of GOD. IF this was not by their will but by GOD's will as creating them that way then they would have no sin as there would be no mens rea.

When GOD cleansed heaven of all sin by having all sinners flung - hurled down with animosity - to the prison planet earth, Rev 12:4-9, there were two distinct types of sinners mentioned.

First mentioned were the stars that Satan flung into the earth. These must have been sinners or Satan would have had no power over them but they were rejected by him as worthless in the coming battle with Michael et al, a perfect description of the sinful elect people of HIS kingdom who, though sinners, would not fight against HIM for Satan, that is, those who were sown into this world by the son of Man (Matt 13:36-39) to be redeemed, sanctified and made heaven ready to be HIS Bride.

Second were the Satanic demons, those who had sinned the unforgivable sin who were condemned already, Jn 3:18, flung into Sheol and tartarus, people of the evil one who are sown (not created) into this world by the devil.

What pre-earth sin did they sin?
The Satanic rejected YHWH's claims to deity and the gospel as lies and believed (put their faith in) HIM to be a false god.

The elect who accepted HIS claims to be divine and the only saviour from sinfulness, rebelled against HIS command to come out from among the Satanic reprobate so they could be judged, believing that love should never condemn but should only heal, not accepting that the sin of the satanic was unforgivable and irreversible and so having to learn this lesson the hard way, in life on earth.

Woah

Do you have any biblical support for those wild theories?

 

[Behold]

Preamble:
People, who before they were babies sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, chose to be sinful in the sight of GOD. IF this was not by their will but by GOD's will as creating them that way then they would have no sin as there would be no mens rea.

When GOD cleansed heaven of all sin by having all sinners flung -

Sci-Fi Theology.

It reads almost as good as L. Ron Hubbard's insanity.

 

[TomL]

Sci-Fi Theology.

It reads almost as good as L. Ron Hubbard's insanity.

LOL

 

[TedT]

Woah

Do you have any biblical support for those wild theories?

Hey - if you read again, just about every time I write about PCE theology I provide spiritual support. Just because you don't think the verses rate being called evidence or support does not mean it is not there.

My apology, in the theological sense, for the last 40 yrs or so, is:
I present the verses I do which witness to our pre-conception existence, along with some others which I feel make a lot more sense when they're interpreted in light of this doctrine.

Now, being that hardly anyone has searched the Scriptures in light of the pre-conception view, these Scriptures have rarely been interpreted this way before in any commentary or discussion. Therefore, it stands to reason that such an exegesis of these Scriptures will be new and that it will be fairly unique, that is, that almost all the other interpretations of the same Scriptures will be different.

In other words, any verse that conveys the idea of our pre-earth existence has rarely been interpreted this way before because almost every exegete automatically looks for a different interpretation when they read such an interpretation. This being the case, a mere list of Scriptures will not constitute proof of scriptural support for this doctrine but, to provide such proof, such a list will have to be accompanied by an in-depth exegesis of the said Scriptures.

Providing only a list of pertinent verses without the accompanying new exegesis would only tend to prove to its searchers that this doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would tend to interpret the Scriptures that supply proof of our pre-conception existence only in orthodox terms, in much the same way that everybody used to interpret the Scriptures regarding the divine Christ King.

 

[TedT]

Sci-Fi Theology.

It reads almost as good as L. Ron Hubbard's insanity.

Hey - what do you think Rev 12:4-9 is all about then...or Job 38-7 and Matt 13:36-39???

There is nothing in the bible of any scripture that makes the pce interpretation impossible, not one verse. At least, 15 years of challenging anyone to find one has never been answered... Nor has anyone proven that the words in the verses I quote are being misused; it is only suggested, sometime rudley, that they are being misinterpreted, most often without presenting their own opinion about their meaning, or, as in the case of Matt 13:36-39, Col 1:23 and Ps 9:17, totally ignored as no one wants to discuss their own lack of interpretation.

 

[TomL]

Hey - if you read again, just about every time I write about PCE theology I provide spiritual support. Just because you don't think the verses rate being called evidence or support does not mean it is not there.

Um noting mentioned sinners non angelic beings-men being in and kicked out of heaven

or pre conception for that matter

 

[praise_yeshua]

So, what you're saying is that we're all created innocent, like Adam, and prone to sin, like Adam. So God created humans to be deficient so that There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. That's what God created. It has nothing to do with being fallen, right?

Immature. Incomplete. Lacking. Flesh.

FLESH. Adam was flesh. Capable of sin. Weak. Capable of resisting God.

Just like YOU are now. Even after receiving the Spirit of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Innocence is not absence of sin. Jesus cried on the cross and details our innocent guilt....

"They know not what they do".......

 

[TomL]

This objection is eisegetically based upon facts not proven but only accepted, that is, that we are created at conception (or birth as some would have it) as sinners when the scripture is clear that ALL the sons of GOD saw the creation of the physical universe: Job 38:7.

That answers the question how?

IF the person was created innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to put HIS faith in YHWH's claims to be divine and the only saviour from sin
OR
to choose to reject HIS claims as lies and so to rebuke HIM as a false god,
then everyone who rejected HIM or rebelled against any command would be a sinner by their free will choice of faith, not by HIS will or determined plan.

And?

Nowhere do we read men reject him according to his determination

As sinners they are accountable for every sin they have ever chosen either before they were sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, or after. Since only sinners are sown into this world then every person of every age is accountable and will be held accountable SINCE accountability is a product of their free will decision to sin NOT of their age when they die in their earthly life NOR THEIR EARTHLY UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR SITUATION.

The bible does not support your pre-existent sinned previous to their earthly conception

Matthew 13:36–39 (KJV 1900) — 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

and it certainly does not appear in the reference scripture


raven view

 

[TedT]

Um noting mentioned sinners non angelic beings-men being in and kicked out of heaven

or pre conception for that matter

I'm sorry you misunderstand - the beings in the heavenly realm before the fall of anyone and who saw the creation of the physical realm as mentioned in Job 38:7, were NOT men but spirits, persons who were flung out of heaven into Sheol inside the earth, Rev 12:4-9, then sown (not created) into the world of man as per Matt 13:36-39.

If you don't think anyone was flung out of heaven, perhaps you would exegete Rev 12:4-9 for us?

 

[TedT]

Nowhere do we read men reject him according to his determination

Nowhere do I claim to believe that men OR ANYONE rejected GOD by HIS determination. If you read that in my posts you are misinterpreting what I say. Only by a free will decision by the person himself did anyone reject either GOD's claims or HIS commands.

 

[TedT]

The bible does not support your pre-existent sinned previous to their earthly conception

Matthew 13:36–39 (KJV 1900) — 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

and it certainly does not appear in the reference scripture

Please consider:
Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation of a metaphor that is itself a metaphor only extends the metaphor, it does not explain it or reveal its hidden meaning. Therefore such an explanation must not have any literary device in it, no hyperbole nor metaphor in it at all. It would have to be able to be taken at plain face value.

37 He replied, “The One who SOWS the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

The other thing to notice is the word TO SOW. At face value to be sown cannot refer to being created as the devil sows some people also as GOD sees fit. This leaves the word sow to be being used in its ordinary sense of to be removed from a place of storage and scattered into a field to grow and mature. Nowhere is this word speirōn, to sow,used in scripture to mean anything else, especially not to mean creation.

This implies that the sons of the kingdom ARE the sons of the kingdom before they are sown into the field of the world as the good seed. The sons of the evil one ARE the sons of the evil one before they are sown into the field of the world, by the devil.

Without metaphor it is impossible to countenance the devil creating people here on earth so we are forced by the created on earth doctrine to find a further metaphor in this passage to explain it which is no explanation at all.

Only being moved from somewhere else to the world of mankind satisfies the logic of this passage. And we have a reference that people came from elsewhere, ie Sheol, into the world in Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. in which it is necessary to notice that the word RETURN, shuv, is the actual Hebrew, not to turn into (kjv) which is practically the opposite of to return but eases the eisegetic need to keep people from thinking this verse might refer to anyone going back to Sheol after leaving it to come to earth, sigh.

So, the fact of our being members of the kingdom of heaven happened before our conception on earth and whatever means for that entry into the kingdom to occur must have happened before the foundation of the earth, not by our being created sinful on earth nor by our [re]turn to faith on earth...2 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep led astray, but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

To go astray or, more precisely (according to Strong's), to be led astray, ie deceived, implies that one had the truth then left it which begs us to ask: When did we know the truth which we then were led way from only to return to Christ at our conversion? Not on earth as we are conceived and born already gone astray into sin, right?

 

[TomL]

Please consider:
Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation of a metaphor that is itself a metaphor only extends the metaphor, it does not explain it or reveal its hidden meaning. Therefore such an explanation must not have any literary device in it, no hyperbole nor metaphor in it at all. It would have to be able to be taken at plain face value.

37 He replied, “The One who SOWS the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

The other thing to notice is the word TO SOW. At face value to be sown cannot refer to being created as the devil sows some people also as GOD sees fit. This leaves the word sow to be being used in its ordinary sense of to be removed from a place of storage and scattered into a field to grow and mature. Nowhere is this word speirōn, to sow,used in scripture to mean anything else, especially not to mean creation.

This implies that the sons of the kingdom ARE the sons of the kingdom before they are sown into the field of the world as the good seed. The sons of the evil one ARE the sons of the evil one before they are sown into the field of the world, by the devil.

Without metaphor it is impossible to countenance the devil creating people here on earth so we are forced by the created on earth doctrine to find a further metaphor in this passage to explain it which is no explanation at all.

Only being moved from somewhere else to the world of mankind satisfies the logic of this passage. And we have a reference that people came from elsewhere, ie Sheol, into the world in Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. in which it is necessary to notice that the word RETURN, shuv, is the actual Hebrew, not to turn into (kjv) which is practically the opposite of to return but eases the eisegetic need to keep people from thinking this verse might refer to anyone going back to Sheol after leaving it to come to earth, sigh.

So, the fact of our being members of the kingdom of heaven happened before our conception on earth and whatever means for that entry into the kingdom to occur must have happened before the foundation of the earth, not by our being created sinful on earth nor by our [re]turn to faith on earth...2 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep led astray, but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

To go astray or, more precisely (according to Strong's), to be led astray, ie deceived, implies that one had the truth then left it which begs us to ask: When did we know the truth which we then were led way from only to return to Christ at our conversion? Not on earth as we are conceived and born already gone astray into sin, right?

Nothing you state rebuts the claim I made

The bible does not support your pre-existent sinned previous to their earthly conception

Matthew 13:36–39 (KJV 1900) — 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

and it certainly does not appear in the reference scripture

 

[TomL]

Nowhere do I claim to believe that men OR ANYONE rejected GOD by HIS determination. If you read that in my posts you are misinterpreting what I say. Only by a free will decision by the person himself did anyone reject either GOD's claims or HIS commands.

Um it was my point


You stated

IF the person was created innocent with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to put HIS faith in YHWH's claims to be divine and the only saviour from sin
OR
to choose to reject HIS claims as lies and so to rebuke HIM as a false god,
then everyone who rejected HIM or rebelled against any command would be a sinner by their free will choice of faith, not by HIS will or determined plan.

Nowhere do we read men reject him according to his determination