Dizerner
Active Member
Yeah, the Lord's discipline and judgment are no jokes.
Transmitting The Fallen Nature
- Thread starter Olde Tymer
- Start date
Yeah, the Lord's discipline and judgment are no jokes.
GeneZ
Active Member
Every village has one.
And, every Christian forum has at least one.
(they have ears for the wolf in sheep's clothing)
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement
that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he scourges* every son he accepts as his son.” Hebrews 12:5-6
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he scourges* every son he accepts as his son.” Hebrews 12:5-6
Greek, scourges = punishes to the maximum'/'skins alive with a whip.
His scourging the believer involves God exposing to ourselves what we would hate about ourselves
but was too painful to allow into consciousness as reality.
Up until God began scourging it was hidden from our conscious mind by suppression and denial.
Very painful to face when God makes it happen = scourging.
His grace is with us while He skins us alive! That makes us humble before God instead of potentially for some even suicidal.
Yes it HURTS!
The Lord's discipline is not a joke...
He does not know God if he has not known God's discipline.
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers,
then you are bastards (illegitimate) and not sons. "
Hebrews 12:8
Some come here masquerading as being Bible believers... 2 Corinthians 11:15
Grace and peace ........................
GeneZ
Active Member
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
..............
You may well not have thought of me as an Arminian but you did link it to reactionary Atonement of which you said I believe. It was difficult not to see the inference that you were also applying Arminianism to me as well. Nevertheless, it's no biggie, we can move past such misunderstandings. I appreciate you are endeavouring to listen to what I say and not simply reply on generalities.
It seems we are going to simply disagree regarding Adam. He knew enough not to sin and if he wanted to save Eve then he should have made God's word the priority and stepped up to the plate and told that serpent to take a long walk off a short pier the moment it accused God of being a liar. I have heard others tell a similar story to what you are saying here but I think they have read Adam wrong. As far as I am concerned, Adam wanted to eat the fruit and hid behind his wife's skirts in order to fulfill his desire hence his first instinct was to blame her. Wives were not designed to wear the "spiritual pants" and when she is forced into that, even if she makes good decisions in line with God's word, it is a terrible burden and a betrayal she carries.
I'm always open to the understandings of others but you must understand my believing Adam died spiritually is not an "impulse", far from it. It comes from decades of seeking, listening, study and practical/theoretical application.
civic
Active Member
Good discussion with you guys I’m following along. I don’t have a horseYou may well not have thought of me as an Arminian but you did link it to reactionary Atonement of which you said I believe. It was difficult not to see the inference that you were also applying Arminianism to me as well. Nevertheless, it's no biggie, we can move past such misunderstandings. I appreciate you are endeavouring to listen to what I say and not simply reply on generalities.
It seems we are going to simply disagree regarding Adam. He knew enough not to sin and if he wanted to save Eve then he should have made God's word the priority and stepped up to the plate and told that serpent to take a long walk off a short pier the moment it accused God of being a liar. I have heard others tell a similar story to what you are saying here but I think they have read Adam wrong. As far as I am concerned, Adam wanted to eat the fruit and hid behind his wife's skirts in order to fulfill his desire hence his first instinct was to blame her. Wives were not designed to wear the "spiritual pants" and when she is forced into that, even if she makes good decisions in line with God's word, it is a terrible burden and a betrayal she carries.
I'm always open to the understandings of others but you must understand my believing Adam died spiritually is not an "impulse", far from it. It comes from decades of seeking, listening, study and practical/theoretical application.
in this one. praise_yeshua
Active Member
You keep referencing Grace as Justice. That is your issue. They are not the same. You keep insisting they are but most anyone knows the difference.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You may well not have thought of me as an Arminian but you did link it to reactionary Atonement of which you said I believe. It was difficult not to see the inference that you were also applying Arminianism to me as well. Nevertheless, it's no biggie, we can move past such misunderstandings. I appreciate you are endeavouring to listen to what I say and not simply reply on generalities.
Understood. It was not my intent. Most everyone holds an reactionary view of the Atonement.
God expected Adam to sin. He did not force it. He did not foster it. However, God allowed sin to have it's "way" with humanity. It is an unescape fact of our existence. If you start with the doctrine of Aseity in the nature of Divinity/Deity, you must recognize that God owes nothing to anyone. God has been Gracious to all of humanity by letting them enjoy His Benevolence in giving them good things even though many will eventually reject Him. To believe that God just simply "Reacted to the sin of Adam" to punish Adam is so fundamentally opposed to the nature of God that it is difficult sometimes for me to not be offended by the very thought. I believe God desires that men willingly seek Him. I find no value in the idea that God forces an individual to embrace Him by establishing an environment that constrain them. Both Calvinism and Arminianism have those beliefs. Not that they are alone but it certainly does involve them. This is what I call a "Reactionary View" of the Atonement.
To me, this is the classic "Stockholm Syndrome" view of Divinity.
Satan took advantage of the situation and I don't believe that Adam had a chance to make such a declaration to Satan. There is little doubt that Adam was smart but being "smart" relative to your environment isn't enlightenment. Adam had no power to stop Satan nor Eve.
Why not blame God here? I mean seriously, if you want see culpability in Adam for Eve then why not God? I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.
Eve was not subservient to Adam until she owed her life to him. Owing our lives to Christ establishes a subservient nature of our relationship. We all have a boss. She gained one in her deception.
I have found few that actually question this teaching. Most have always just accepted it. It fits well in Calvinism and Arminianism views. It fits well into Mormonism and Jehovah Witness theology. It fits well into Islam.
I look forward to you defending it.
Dizerner
Active Member
You need to understand, there are those who accuse Christianity of being a "death cult" because we put so much power and emphasis on the death of Christ.
There are those who say God killed himself for himself to save us from himself, and call Jesus a zombie mockingly.
They would most likely agree with you that the death of Christ in Christianity is too "sin centric."
But what exactly was Jesus doing there, being tortured, just showing he was such a nice guy?
No, he was declaring what God thinks about your sin.
It seems like you've just... thrown that out.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
What a load of hogwash......
Have you lost your skin? Are you covered in open wounds?
I thought you believed that Christ was bruised that we might not feel the "whip" of God?
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Everyone wants to talk about how much THEY suffered to get to where they are..... I thought our message was Christ?
Dizerner
Active Member
The Gospel does not forfeit God's justice.
God forbid.
Jesus paid for his gift to us, it was not free.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You don't think I mourn my unbelief? I am filled with regret. The more I live the more I regret. I'm have no right to talk of my own efforts. Even if I could, why would I? Why should I?
You should know that I've sought to make men equal in inadequacy. We are all sinners. I'm not dismissing sin, I expect every man to find guilt before God. Guilt is where we begin to realize just how wrong we are. It is an acknowledgement of failures to the Glory of God.
Most men want everyone else judged but themselves. It is why I have been asking you....will you rejoice in the damnation of others?
I heard Dr. Oliver B Greene say many years ago "I wouldn't want a dirty mangy animal to go to hell". Like God, I find not pleasure in the death of the wicked. I wish we could always make a difference but we can't. The goal is the willing and it is not all about knowledge. It also involves emotion and spiritual wickedness. I'm not leaving them out.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It is the Innate value of Jesus Christ that provided the value of the Atonement. Not how dirty He became.
civic
Active Member
It’s an expression of love, grace and mercy in the atonement
Dizerner
Active Member
Jesus is "innately valuable" without being tortured to death.
It's the price tag of sin.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You just keep confirming the value of sin.
He was tortured but they couldn't take his life from Him. He laid down His life. That is Grace.
Brother it was empathy that drove Christ to endure OUR suffering.
Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
civic
Active Member
No over and over God says it was love, not once justice. Your justice argument is no different than the Calvinist sovereignty argument. It comes from the exact same point of view. It’s a blind spot with you for some reason that you cannot or will not see it.
Dizerner
Active Member
Dizerner
Active Member
Torturing yourself to show you love someone is just stupid.
Do you nail yourself on a cross just to show your wife how much you love her?
There has to be a valid reason for it.
I would like to hear your alternative first if you don't mind. I agree with you in that God expected Adam to sin, in fact, I would go further and say it was necessary so God could work out His plan. I would also say it was just as necessary Adam would repent, something that doesn't get talked of much. If he had been an unrepentant Pharaoh of the Exodus type, I don't think the Lord could have got His message through to us as effectively, that being, evil and sin originates within the will.
Based on what you have said so far in respect to Adam dying, I'm curious ....
Do you believe Adam would have died physically whether he sinned or not? If not, what do think changed to bring about death?
