Time in heaven

Quote his saying God cannot know what a free creature would do?
James White?

He speaks of the grounding objection

Here is a secondary source

One way in which Calvinists advocate Determinism is through the doctrine of Omniscience. Although Arminians agree that God is omniscient, Arminians and Calvinists have a very different understanding of how God is able to know the future. For Calvinists, omniscience requires Determinism, and that will be the subject of exploration, as a Q&A is developed:

Calvinist, James White: “If you think about it, if God really knows what man’s going to do, is man really free?, and that’s why the Open Theists go the direction that they do.” (Arminianism: It Robs the Gospel of its Personal Nature)

To a Calvinist, the answer is no, and in this way, a Calvinist uses the doctrine of omniscience as a proof-text for Determinism.

White adds:How God can know future events, for example, and yet not determine them, is an important point….” (Debating Calvinism, p.163, emphasis mine)

“How” could God know it?, asks White. For White, God must determine it, in order to know it. For White, omniscience is simply a matter of God knowing what He scripted, and since God scripted everything, according to White, then it follows that God must then know everything. That’s White’s logic.

James White:How can God know what these free creatures will do in the future, if they are truly free (the argument open theists are aggressively promoting today)?” (Debating Calvinism, p.168, emphasis mine)

It’s clear that White doesn’t believe that God could know what free creatures would do, unless God determined their actions, and thus meaning that they are no longer free.

James White: “If God’s foreknowledge is perfect, does it not follow that the future is, in fact, fixed? And if it is fixed, upon what basis did it take the shape it did?” (Debating Calvinism, p.360, emphasis mine)​


I will have to search James White debates with open theism so you can hear him speak on the grounding objection

Update

Here is a source discussing Whites on the grounding objection


Around 11:24
 
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James White?

He speaks of the grounding objection

Here is a secondary source

One way in which Calvinists advocate Determinism is through the doctrine of Omniscience. Although Arminians agree that God is omniscient, Arminians and Calvinists have a very different understanding of how God is able to know the future. For Calvinists, omniscience requires Determinism, and that will be the subject of exploration, as a Q&A is developed:

Calvinist, James White: “If you think about it, if God really knows what man’s going to do, is man really free?, and that’s why the Open Theists go the direction that they do.” (Arminianism: It Robs the Gospel of its Personal Nature)

To a Calvinist, the answer is no, and in this way, a Calvinist uses the doctrine of omniscience as a proof-text for Determinism.

White adds:How God can know future events, for example, and yet not determine them, is an important point….” (Debating Calvinism, p.163, emphasis mine)

“How” could God know it?, asks White. For White, God must determine it, in order to know it. For White, omniscience is simply a matter of God knowing what He scripted, and since God scripted everything, according to White, then it follows that God must then know everything. That’s White’s logic.

James White:How can God know what these free creatures will do in the future, if they are truly free (the argument open theists are aggressively promoting today)?” (Debating Calvinism, p.168, emphasis mine)

It’s clear that White doesn’t believe that God could know what free creatures would do, unless God determined their actions, and thus meaning that they are no longer free.

James White: “If God’s foreknowledge is perfect, does it not follow that the future is, in fact, fixed? And if it is fixed, upon what basis did it take the shape it did?” (Debating Calvinism, p.360, emphasis mine)​


I will have to search James White debates with open theism so you can hear him speak on the grounding objection
He never said God cannot know the future free actions man. The Bible is full of examples.

You do that
 
He never said God cannot know the future free actions man. The Bible is full of examples.

You do that
Sorry you are in error once again


around 11:24 White is seen

According to his belief Only by determinism can God know what man will do
 
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Yup, my words whiner.

There was no false statement. Nothing to correct.
Sorry you clearly spoke of determinism

Why do you deny your own words

Presby02 said:
No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.

He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate.

Or do you argue there are multiple Presby02's on this forum
 
Sorry you are in error once again


around 11:24 White is seen

According to his belief Only by determinism can God know what man will do
Genius. He said it critiquing your Open Theist position.

He would be correct. God knows because He determined all that occurs.
 
Sorry you clearly spoke of determinism

Why do you deny your own words



Or do you argue there are multiple Presby02's on this forum
Quote my own words and I will happily correct you. Getting to be a full time job.

If there two then there at least two smart people in this forum. 😁
 
James White?

He speaks of the grounding objection

Here is a secondary source

One way in which Calvinists advocate Determinism is through the doctrine of Omniscience. Although Arminians agree that God is omniscient, Arminians and Calvinists have a very different understanding of how God is able to know the future. For Calvinists, omniscience requires Determinism, and that will be the subject of exploration, as a Q&A is developed:

Calvinist, James White: “If you think about it, if God really knows what man’s going to do, is man really free?, and that’s why the Open Theists go the direction that they do.” (Arminianism: It Robs the Gospel of its Personal Nature)

To a Calvinist, the answer is no, and in this way, a Calvinist uses the doctrine of omniscience as a proof-text for Determinism.

White adds:How God can know future events, for example, and yet not determine them, is an important point….” (Debating Calvinism, p.163, emphasis mine)

“How” could God know it?, asks White. For White, God must determine it, in order to know it. For White, omniscience is simply a matter of God knowing what He scripted, and since God scripted everything, according to White, then it follows that God must then know everything. That’s White’s logic.

James White:How can God know what these free creatures will do in the future, if they are truly free (the argument open theists are aggressively promoting today)?” (Debating Calvinism, p.168, emphasis mine)

It’s clear that White doesn’t believe that God could know what free creatures would do, unless God determined their actions, and thus meaning that they are no longer free.

James White: “If God’s foreknowledge is perfect, does it not follow that the future is, in fact, fixed? And if it is fixed, upon what basis did it take the shape it did?” (Debating Calvinism, p.360, emphasis mine)​


I will have to search James White debates with open theism so you can hear him speak on the grounding objection

Update

Here is a source discussing Whites on the grounding objection


Around 11:24
Yep 👍
 
The Calvinist God does not know anymore than the Open theist God. He knows the future actions of men only because he determines them. Take away his determination his knowledge of settled future acts is no greater than the open theist
 
Quote my own words and I will happily correct you. Getting to be a full time job.

If there two then there at least two smart people in this forum. 😁
I already did

What is wrong with you?

Presby02 said:
No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.

He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate.
 
The Calvinist God does not know anymore than the Open theist God. He knows the future actions of men only because he determines them. Take away his determination his knowledge of settled future acts is no greater than the open theist
Simply dishonest. We believe God us omniscient. God knows ALL there is to know. The historic position of the church.
 
Genius. He said it critiquing your Open Theist position.

He would be correct. God knows because He determined all that occurs.
Dodging again

He is actually addressing molinism in that podcast

And the grounding objection is God cannot know what yet non existent creatures will do in the future left to their own devices

So as I stated your position does not advance the omniscience of God any greater than that taught in open theism (dynamic omniscience)
 
I never saw quote marks. Uh oh. Some is having honesty issues again.

What's wrong with you? Other than the obvious.
try reading

These are your words

Presby02 said:
No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.

He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate.

hello
 
Simply dishonest. We believe God us omniscient. God knows ALL there is to know. The historic position of the church.
Sorry you are ignoring the evidence

In your position, God knows the future actions of men because his determined them and not because he is omniscient

You are the dishonest one here as shown time after time

Deal with the grounding objection

It has been voiced by Calvinists as an argument for determinism.
 
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Dodging again

He is actually addressing molinism in that podcast

And the grounding objection is God cannot know what yet non existent creatures will do in the future left to their own devices

So as I stated your position does not advance the omniscience of God any greater than that taught in open theism (dynamic omniscience)
"left to their own devices"

Good thing there is no such thing as "dynamic omniscience".

Omniscience: God knows ALL there is to logically know.
 
Sorry you are ignoring the evidence

In your position, God knows the future actions of men because his determined them and not because he is omniscient

You are the dishonest one here as shown time after time

Deal with the grounding objection

It has been voiced by Calvinists as an argument for determinism.
Where is my quoted statement?

I agree that is how God knows. I have no issue with that.

It's been voiced by Calvinists against the Molinists. Are you a Molonist now to? LOL
 
Where is my quoted statement?

I agree that is how God knows. I have no issue with that.

It's been voiced by Calvinists against the Molinists. Are you a Molonist now to? LOL
Here as you have been told multiple times

Presby02 said:
"No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.
He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate."

Why do you deny your own words?

Sorry but it is not rational to assume one is a molinist just because one quotes a statement James White made to Molinist

Finally do you now admit you were in error previously when you denied the commonly held Calvinist belief that God knows the future acts of as yet uncreated men only because he determines them?
 
Here as you have been told multiple times

Presby02 said:
"No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.
He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate."

Why do you deny your own words?

Sorry but it is not rational to assume one is a molinist just because one quotes a statement James White made to Molinist

Finally do you now admit you were in error previously when you denied the commonly held Calvinist belief that God knows the future acts of as yet uncreated men only because he determines them?
Are you dense? I believe God knows all things including your future choices be cause, watch now, He DETERMINES THEM. Hello? Anyone home?????? My goodness
 
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