Time in heaven

Are you dense? I believe God knows all things including your future choices be cause, watch now, He DETERMINES THEM. Hello? Anyone home?????? My goodness
Where did you deal with your denial of your own words?

Presby02 said:
"No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.
He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate."
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/time-in-heaven.1949/post-109520

Multiple time you were told this but refused to acknowledge this


Now you dishonestly cover over the fact that Calvinist do not believe God can know the future acts of as yet uncreated free creatures as shown in the statement of James White

Only by determining their choices can he do so in which case they are no longer free

Hello back at you
 
Where did you deal with your denial of your own words?

Presby02 said:
"No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.
He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate."
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/time-in-heaven.1949/post-109520

Multiple time you were told this but refused to acknowledge this


Now you dishonestly cover over the fact that Calvinist do not believe God can know the future acts of as yet uncreated free creatures as shown in the statement of James White

Only by determining their choices can he do so in which case they are no longer free

Hello back at you
A determined choice is not free? Did Judas freely choose to betray Jesus?

I will say it again because I'm dealing with a child. God knows the future free choices of man because HE DETERMINED THEM.
 
A determined choice is not free? Did Judas freely choose to betray Jesus?

I will say it again because I'm dealing with a child. God knows the future free choices of man because HE DETERMINED THEM.
No an externally determined choice is not free

Determined choice
Determined choice can be defined as settling or deciding by choice of alternatives or possibilities1. Self-determination is the ability to make choices, solve problems, set goals, evaluate options, take initiative to reach one’s goals, and accept consequences of one’s actions2. Free will is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior3. Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will4.

So then you admit God's cannot know the future free acts of an as yet uncreated free creature

Thus as I stated your position does not advance the knowledge of God any greater than that of open theism

Thank you for that admission

BTW ad hominem is not a substitute for rational honest dialogue.
 
No an externally determined choice is not free

Determined choice
Determined choice can be defined as settling or deciding by choice of alternatives or possibilities1. Self-determination is the ability to make choices, solve problems, set goals, evaluate options, take initiative to reach one’s goals, and accept consequences of one’s actions2. Free will is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior3. Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will4.

So then you admit God's cannot know the future free acts of an as yet uncreated free creature

Thus as I stated your position does not advance the knowledge of God any greater than that of open theism

Thank you for that admission

BTW ad hominem is not a substitute for rational honest dialogue.
Again, Did Judas choose to betray Christ freely?

Who said a determined choice is not free?

Never admitted any such thing. LOL Here, again for the slow among us. God knows are future choices because He determined them. What about that don't you get?

Sure it does. My God knows all there is to logically know. Your God is ignorant of the future and is not omniscient.

You don't know what rational dialog is apparently.
 
Again, Did Judas choose to betray Christ freely?

Who said a determined choice is not free?

Never admitted any such thing. LOL Here, again for the slow among us. God knows are future choices because He determined them. What about that don't you get?

Sure it does. My God knows all there is to logically know. Your God is ignorant of the future and is not omniscient.

You don't know what rational dialog is apparently.
As was stated

No an externally determined choice is not free

Determined choice
Determined choice can be defined as settling or deciding by choice of alternatives or possibilities1. Self-determination is the ability to make choices, solve problems, set goals, evaluate options, take initiative to reach one’s goals, and accept consequences of one’s actions2. Free will is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior3. Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will4.

You already admitted God knows future acts of men only because he determined them

The open theist will also affirm God knows what he determined so once again you do not advance God's knowledge beyond that of the open theists

And your statement

"God knows are future choices because He determined them. What about that don't you get?"

Only supports what I stated from the beginning regarding your position

It is rather dishonest of you to pretend otherwise
 
And your statement

"God knows are future choices because He determined them. What about that don't you get?"

Only supports what I stated from the beginning regarding your position

It is rather dishonest of you to pretend otherwise
Calvinists are always playing a game of bluff. The learned can never be taken in by crafty way they work around the simple basic meaning of words like God determines choices before they happen. People of rational thought would know that would therefore mean the chooser would have no freedom. Any court or jury of the land would say the same. Calvinists want and long to marry Determination to Freedom but even a school child would know they're not compatible.
 
As was stated

No an externally determined choice is not free

Determined choice
Determined choice can be defined as settling or deciding by choice of alternatives or possibilities1. Self-determination is the ability to make choices, solve problems, set goals, evaluate options, take initiative to reach one’s goals, and accept consequences of one’s actions2. Free will is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior3. Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will4.

You already admitted God knows future acts of men only because he determined them

The open theist will also affirm God knows what he determined so once again you do not advance God's knowledge beyond that of the open theists

And your statement

"God knows are future choices because He determined them. What about that don't you get?"

Only supports what I stated from the beginning regarding your position

It is rather dishonest of you to pretend otherwise
Repeating yourself is not evidence.

All choices are externally determined as all choices are based upon external circumstances.
 
Calvinists are always playing a game of bluff. The learned can never be taken in by crafty way they work around the simple basic meaning of words like God determines choices before they happen. People of rational thought would know that would therefore mean the chooser would have no freedom. Any court or jury of the land would say the same. Calvinists want and long to marry Determination to Freedom but even a school child would know they're not compatible.
Repeating her position does not make it true.

A determined choice is not free. Who says?

Let's see if you fare any better.
 
Repeating yourself is not evidence.

All choices are externally determined as all choices are based upon external circumstances.
Sorry that is false

First all choices are not based on external circumstances

second an external source need not be determinative

As i stated



No an externally determined choice is not free

Determined choice
Determined choice can be defined as settling or deciding by choice of alternatives or possibilities1. Self-determination is the ability to make choices, solve problems, set goals, evaluate options, take initiative to reach one’s goals, and accept consequences of one’s actions2. Free will is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior3. Determinism is the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will4.

You already admitted God knows future acts of men only because he determined them

The open theist will also affirm God knows what he determined so once again you do not advance God's knowledge beyond that of the open theists

And your statement

"God knows are future choices because He determined them. What about that don't you get?"

Only supports what I stated from the beginning regarding your position

It is rather dishonest of you to pretend otherwise and that you had not initially opposed my claim

You failed to deal with the dishonesty you displayed above
 
Sorry that is false

First all choices are not based on external circumstances

second an external source need not be determinative

As i stated





It is rather dishonest of you to pretend otherwise and that you had not initially opposed my claim

You failed to deal with the dishonesty you displayed above
Yes, they are. Name one choice you made that did not involve external circumstances.

Not a single external circumstance, no, a combination of them most certainly.

I don't think you know exactly what your talking about. Your arguing for arguments sake. Typical
 
Projection alert!

Like I said my challenge remains whenever you feel lucky. Until then your simply blowing smoke.
What challenge. It was you who said forget it

Right here in a new thread

The bible shows men coming into belief without ever noting a preceding regeneration
 
Belief is granted or given by God.

What's next? 🥱
Granted not infused and not based on a prior regeneration

how granted

By the presentation of God's word

Romans 10:14–17 (NIV) — 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
 
Granted not infused and not based on a prior regeneration

how granted

By the presentation of God's word

Romans 10:14–17 (NIV) — 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
I did not say infused did I?

Sorry, that does not say how it is granted. You can hear it all day long and if you have not been granted to believe, you won't.

NEXT
 
I did not say infused did I?

Sorry, that does not say how it is granted. You can hear it all day long and if you have not been granted to believe, you won't.

NEXT
But that is Calvinist theology

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)

There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.

In brief, the views are as follows.

1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.

2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.

3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."

1. Infused Faith.

Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.

This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.

2. Faith is a gift.

It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.

3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.
 
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