Time in heaven

[TomL]

The question was omniscience. Off she goes.

Define omniscience

You are dodging again and will not deal with your equivocation

You did even worse

You claimed Christ had no choice in the matter; denying the verse.

You continue to do so, however Christ was not determined and you are equivocating and misusing the concept of determinism.

Determinism


Determinism is a philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes12. It is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do1.

Omniscience is knowing everything that may possibly be known

To be noted however is your theology claims God knows the future because he determines it

Had he not determined it he would not know it.

 

[TomL]

No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.

He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate.

You ignore the definition of determinism

Determinism


Determinism is a philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes12. It is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do1.

And conflate the determining of the cross to which Christ agreed with determinism continuing your redefinition of words

 

[Presby02]

You are dodging again and will not deal with your equivocation



Omniscience is knowing everything that may possibly be known

To be noted however is your theology claims God knows the future because he determines it

Had he not determined it he would not know it.

According to your Open Theism God cannot know how a free creature will choose. Correct? How did He know Judas would betray Christ?

Exactly


Not so. He knows all including what He did not it would not determine to occur.

 

[Presby02]

You ignore the definition of determinism

Determinism


Determinism is a philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes12. It is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do1.

And conflate the determining of the cross to which Christ agreed with determinism continuing your redefinition of words

Determism is not the topic. Omniscience is the topic.

Could Christ not have agreed? LOL Did he have to think about it? Yikes

 

[Complete]

'God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
Whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
by Whom also He made the worlds; (i.e., aions)
Who being the brightness of His glory,
and the express image of His person,
and upholding all things by the word of His power,
when He had by Himself purged our sins,
sat down on the right hand of The Majesty on high; ... ... '
(Heb 1:1-3)

Hello @civic,

The reference to worlds (i.e., aions) above, has been struggling to come to the forefront of my mind for a few weeks, since this thread concerning 'time' began: I was trying to find it through the word 'ages' but it was concealed behind the word 'worlds'; so was eluding me. I equate ages with time and times, hopefully correctly, so feel that this reference is of importance in relation to time. For it was our Lord, before His incarnation, in the beginning, Who made the worlds (or times), the ages.

Beyond this I cannot go, but I introduce this seed of thought, in the hope that you will be able to expand on it.

Note:- Looking at Vines Dictionary, at the word aion, there is an interesting summary there of it's meaning and usage. I should have looked at it before beginning, for I see that the word aion is used in relation to the content of a period of time, rather than it's length, which in itself is worth considering.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Time In Heaven'

Jesus opened the seventh seal and then there was silence in heaven for about half an hour Rev. 8:1; martyrs in heaven (don't ask God to forgive those who killed them, but rather, lacking the false spirituality common on Earth), inherently acknowledging time in heaven, ask: "How long O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…?" Rev. 6:9; Greek philosophers with Christian theologians quoting them deny that God was or will be and claim He only "is", whereas God is "the One who is and who was and who is to come" and in heaven awaits the "time of the dead" when "they should be judged" Rev. 11:17-18; the tree of life bore twelve fruits, a different one each month Rev. 22:2

'And when he had opened the seventh seal,
there was silence in heaven
about the space of half an hour.'
(Rev 8:1)

Hello @TomL,

That silence must have been very solemn: marking as it does the pause between the prayer of the martyrs and the answer, which will turn the prayer into praise. On earth their cry had been incessant, ('night and day') but now in heaven their cry is about to be answered: so the silence is one of expectancy;

'And when He had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain
for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?
(Rev 6:9-10)

* Their cry is consistent with the day of judgement, but not with this present age of grace. Their blood. like that of Abel, cried out to the Lord (Gen. 4:10). In this day of grace the Church does not cry for vengeance. It is taught not to in Romans 12:19.

'Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,
but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written,
Vengeance is mine; I will repay,
saith the Lord.'
(Rom 12:19)

* These martyrs had been slain for their testimony during the great tribulation. We can witness their resurrection foretold in Revelation 20:4, and their reward of reigning with Christ for 1,000 years which follows. What an answer and what a reward!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

Subject Heading:- 'Time In Heaven'

'And when he had opened the seventh seal,
there was silence in heaven
about the space of half an hour.'
(Rev 8:1)

Hello @TomL,

That silence must have been very solemn: marking as it does the pause between the prayer of the martyrs and the answer, which will turn the prayer into praise. On earth their cry had been incessant, ('night and day') but now in heaven their cry is about to be answered: so the silence is one of expectancy;

'And when He had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain
for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true,
dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood
on them that dwell on the earth?
(Rev 6:9-10)

* Their cry is consistent with the day of judgement, but not with this present age of grace. Their blood. like that of Abel, cried out to the Lord (Gen. 4:10). In this day of grace the Church does not cry for vengeance. It is taught not to in Romans 12:19.

'Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves,
but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written,
Vengeance is mine; I will repay,
saith the Lord.'
(Rom 12:19)

* These martyrs had been slain for their testimony during the great tribulation. We can witness their resurrection foretold in Revelation 20:4, and their reward of reigning with Christ for 1,000 years which follows. What an answer and what a reward!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Somewhat off the topic of there being time in heaven

 

[TomL]

Determism is not the topic. Omniscience is the topic.

Could Christ not have agreed? LOL Did he have to think about it? Yikes

Don't dodge you spoke of determinism in your post and you did so in a manner which misdefined determinism

Determinism


Determinism is a philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes12. It is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do1.

And conflate the determining of the cross to which Christ agreed with determinism continuing your redefinition of words

Yes he could have

 

[TomL]

According to your Open Theism God cannot know how a free creature will choose. Correct? How did He know Judas would betray Christ?

Exactly


Not so. He knows all including what He did not it would not determine to occur.

Um according to Calvinism God cannot know what a free will creature he did not determine would do.

In the bible God knows by observation, by searching the heart, by testing, by what he determines to do

BTW your last statement is unintelligible

 

[civic]

Um according to Calvinism God cannot know what a free will creature he did not determine would do.

In the bible God knows by observation, by searching the heart, by testing, by what he determines to do

BTW your last statement is unintelligible

Yep

 

[TomL]

Yep

I have spent much time previously arguing with Calvinists who deny God can know what a free creature would do if not determined

James White is an example of one who holds that position

 

[Presby02]

Um according to Calvinism God cannot know what a free will creature he did not determine would do.

In the bible God knows by observation, by searching the heart, by testing, by what he determines to do

BTW your last statement is unintelligible

LOL, hence He is omniscient. And no Calvinist would say "God cannot know". That would be those of your persuasion. The "future is open" type.

So man dictates what God will do. That's scary.

 

[Presby02]

Don't dodge you spoke of determinism in your post and you did so in a manner which misdefined determinism




Yes he could have

No, actually I didn't.

He could have made the world out of blue cheese but knew wouldnt.

 

[TomL]

No, actually I didn't.

He could have made the world out of blue cheese but knew wouldnt.

Yeah actually you did

Presby02 said:
No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.

He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate.

so why do you bear false witness?

 

[TomL]

LOL, hence He is omniscient. And no Calvinist would say "God cannot know". That would be those of your persuasion. The "future is open" type.

So man dictates what God will do. That's scary.

Really?

Go over to CARM A number of Calvinist will affirm that

Then check with James white

Calvinist use that argument against those who believe in simple foreknowledge

You err yet again.

 

[Presby02]

Yeah actually you did



so why do you bear false witness?

No, I actually didn't.

Here comes the whiner.

 

[Presby02]

Really?

Go over to CARM A number of Calvinist will affirm that

Then check with James white

Calvinist use that argument against those who believe in simple foreknowledge

You err yet again.

Will affirm what? What can a omniscient God not know?

 

[TomL]

Will affirm what? What can a omniscient God not know?

Read

They will affirm God cannot know what a free creature would do especially from before the foundation of the earth as James White argues

 

[Presby02]

Read

They will affirm God cannot know what a free creature would do especially from before the foundation of the earth as James White argues

Quote his saying God cannot know what a free creature would do?

 

[TomL]

No, I actually didn't.

Here comes the whiner.

Your words

Presby02 said:
No, you do. Determinism is fatalism remember? The cross was determined so it's fate. Christ is a victim of fate.

He was not determined to go to the cross? It was a spur of the moment thing? LOL Acts 4 says otherwise. Those in Acts 4 also were victims of fate according to you. Judas, Herod had no choice. It was their fate.

you are propagating false information in denying you had spoke of determinism

You did in fact do so therefore correct your false statement.