Time in heaven

[Presby02]

But that is Calvinist theology

Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)

There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.

In brief, the views are as follows.

1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.

2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.

3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."

1. Infused Faith.

Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.

This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.

2. Faith is a gift.

It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.

3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.

I never said it was infused. Leave the script and address what I say.

 

[TomL]

I never said it was infused. Leave the script and address what I say.

You believe faith is a gift

It is either a gift you can refuse which you deny

Or it is a gift infused

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/time-in-heaven.1949/post-111650

 

[Presby02]

You believe faith is a gift

It is either a gift you can refuse which you deny

Or it is a gift infused

Sure do. Paul asks," what do you have you have not recieved"? Easy for me. Nothing

This is classic example of the "false dilemma" fallacy.

 

[TomL]

Sure do. Paul asks," what do you have you have not recieved"? Easy for me. Nothing

This is classic example of the "false dilemma" fallacy.

Except you ignored context again

1 Corinthians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The ability to believe is not in view but ministry and stewardship are

This is a classic example How Calvinism and context do not go together

 

[Presby02]

Except you ignored context again

1 Corinthians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The ability to believe is not in view but ministry and stewardship are

This is a classic example How Calvinism and context do not go together

So answer His question. What do you have you have not recieved? Let's hear the list.

Watch the dodger in action folks.

 

[TomL]

So answer His question. What do you have you have not recieved? Let's hear the list.

Watch the dodger in action folks.

You are Dodging again

Except you ignored context again

1 Corinthians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The ability to believe is not in view but ministry and stewardship are

This is a classic example How Calvinism and context do not go together

Based on your argument Are you going to claim your sin was received?

 

[Presby02]

You are Dodging again

Except you ignored context again

1 Corinthians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The ability to believe is not in view but ministry and stewardship are

This is a classic example How Calvinism and context do not go together

Based on your argument Are you going to claim your sin was received?

Notice folks, my question was ignored as I predicted. Let's try again for fun.

Tom, what do you have that you have not recieved?

I am born a sinner, nothing to recieve. Are you born with saving faith?

 

[TomL]

Notice folks, my question was ignored as I predicted. Let's try again for fun.

Tom, what do you have that you have not recieved?

I am born a sinner, nothing to recieve. Are you born with saving faith?

Your question as always is a dodger

but if you had any reading ability the answer given was your sin

You are Dodging again

Except you ignored context again

1 Corinthians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The ability to believe is not in view but ministry and stewardship are

This is a classic example How Calvinism and context do not go together

Based on your argument Are you going to claim your sin was received?

 

[Presby02]

Your question as always is a dodger

but if you had any reading ability the answer given was your sin

You are Dodging again

Except you ignored context again

1 Corinthians 4:1–7 (KJV 1900) — 1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The ability to believe is not in view but ministry and stewardship are

This is a classic example How Calvinism and context do not go together

Based on your argument Are you going to claim your sin was received?

So she repeats herself while still dodging my question and my point.

Answered already. I am born a sinner. There is nothing to recieve.

Are you born with saving faith?? Going twice

 

[TomL]

So she repeats herself while still dodging my question and my point.

Answered already. I am born a sinner. There is nothing to recieve.

Are you born with saving faith?? Going twice

I am not a she and I think you know that.

You remain a Dodger never being able to justify your ignoring of context

You had no point

Asking a question is proof of nothing but Are you saying you do not receive your sin?

No one is born with saving faith, but you have done nothing at all to show saving faith is infused in man by God

 

[Presby02]

I am not a she and I think you know that.

You remain a Dodger never being able to justify your ignoring of context

You had no point

Asking a question is proof of nothing but Are you saying you do not receive your sin?

No one is born with saving faith, but you have done nothing at all to show saving faith is infused in man by God

Not what I heard. Are you sure?

Your not born with saving faith. Thanks for making my point.

I do not say it's infused and it appears your lost unless you can say otherwise. Being dishonest as usual

 

[TomL]

Not what I heard. Are you sure?

I cannot help it you hear voices in your head

Your not born with saving faith. Thanks for making my point.

I do not say it's infused and it appears your lost unless you can say otherwise. Being dishonest as usual

And saying you are not born with faith does nothing at all to show God infuses faith in man

Your arguments remain bogus as ever

BTW are you now denying your belief God instills faith in man?

 

[Presby02]

I cannot help it you hear voices in your head


And saying you are not born with faith does nothing at all to show God infuses faith in man

Your arguments remain bogus as ever

BTW are you now denying your belief God instills faith in man?

Never said it did. Your all over the place.

So far you can't deal with them. LOL

Depends on what you mean by that?

Does the fall infuse a propensity towards sin?

 

[TomL]

Never said it did. Your all over the place.

If you never said it did then you claim

"Your not born with saving faith. Thanks for making my point."

Was false

Hello

So far you can't deal with them. LOL

Again your own words

"Never said it did"

contradict your false claim above

Depends on what you mean by that?

Does the fall infuse a propensity towards sin?

Can you not answer the question

Are you denying God instills faith in man?

without diverting?

 

[Presby02]

If you never said it did then you claim

"Your not born with saving faith. Thanks for making my point."

Was false

Hello


Again your own words

"Never said it did"

contradict your false claim above

Can you not answer the question

Are you denying God instills faith in man?

without diverting?

No it's not. So "thanks for making my point".

What do you mean by instills?

 

[TomL]

No it's not. So "thanks for making my point".

What do you mean by instills?

Again you words "never said it did" shows you had no point to make

You have not shown God unilaterally instills faith in man

Do you have a dictionary or access to one?

You can quite easily look it up and not divert

 

[Presby02]

Again you words "never said it did" shows you had no point to make

You have not shown God unilaterally instills faith in man

Do you have a dictionary or access to one?

You can quite easily look it up and not divert

No, what it means us I never said that. LOL

What do you mean by instills? Define your terms.

Tom will dodge this request. Observe

Dictionaries are of no use when dealing with Provisionist. They simply redefine them. So please define your terms.

 

[TomL]

No, what it means us I never said that. LOL

What do you mean by instills? Define your terms.

Tom will dodge this request. Observe

Dictionaries are of no use when dealing with Provisionist. They simply redefine them. So please define your terms.

I mean just what a dictionary means

You are dodging again

Again you words "never said it did" shows you had no point to make

You have not shown God unilaterally instills faith in man

Do you have a dictionary or access to one?

You can quite easily look it up and not divert

 

[Presby02]

I mean just what a dictionary means

You are dodging again

Again you words "never said it did" shows you had no point to make

You have not shown God unilaterally instills faith in man

Do you have a dictionary or access to one?

You can quite easily look it up and not divert

What do you mean by instills? You used it, you look it up. Lazy

 

[TomL]

What do you mean by instills? You used it, you look it up. Lazy

I mean just what a dictionary means

You are dodging again

Again your words "never said it did" shows you had no point to make

You have not shown God unilaterally instills faith in man

Do you have a dictionary or access to one?

You can quite easily look it up and not divert