Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)

[Matthias]

“… the differentiation between o theos as the one who speaks in both eras and huios as his final means of speaking shows that in the author’s mind it was not the Triune God of Christian theology who spoke to the forefathers by the prophets. That is to say, for the author of Hebrews (as for all NT writers, one may suggest) ‘the God of our fathers,’ Yahweh, was no other than ‘the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’ (compare Acts 2:30 and 2:33; 3:13 and 3:18; 3:25 and 3:26; also note 5:30). Such a conclusion is entirely consistent with the regular NT usage of o theos. It would be inappropriate for elohim or YHVH ever to refer to the Trinity in the OT when in the NT theos regularly refers to the Father alone and never to the Trinity.”

(Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus, p. 47, fn. 112)

For those who may not be familiar with Dr. Harris, he is professor emeritus of New Testament exegesis and theology at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois. He obtained his PhD from the University of Manchester, studying under someone whom readers are probably much more familiar with, F.F. Bruce.

It’s nice to see trinitarian support for my Jewish monotheism. Joe Average Trinitarian (JAT) may not agree that it is nice to see, but there it is.

 

[APAK]

You place conditions on this right here, the atonement. Only one view in your book is acceptable and all the other theories are rubbish and false. The simplicity of the gospel outlined by Paul is that Christ died for our sins ( forgiveness of our sins through His blood). Its a simple faith in His life, death, burial and resurrection after 3 days and His bodily appearances. There is not theology degree required just the child like faith in Christs atonement for ones sin. Nothing more, nothing less is required.

So the gospel and its simple understanding is fundamental, essential. As Paul says one must believe the basics above in his heart and confess with his mouth that Jesus is Lord to be saved. That is belief in the gospel according to Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-8 and Romans 10:9-13. That is what and how one becomes saved.

hope this helps !!!

Yes agreed. The gospel or lifesaving message is miraculous power from God to the one that listens and accepts it. This power affects the heart of the fallen spiritual state of men. It is the heart that the gospel changes not the carnal mind that can change at any time. In other words it is the willingness of the heart to change that triggers the mind to turn, turn to God, and his Son. To turn for help and forgiveness and to voice in mind and mouth I want to be saved in my miserable state because you my lord and Savior already saved me on the Cross, with your blood. I believe in your words and of the Father and I have faith in you...amen!

 

[Behold]

I wrote the fact that the Lord Jesus is God is a major component of the gospel.

The Cross is the only "component" of the Gospel.

There is only one Gospel.

Its this..

"The simplicity that is IN Christ'"".

"Jesus died for your sin"

Why?

Because that sin is what keeps you separated from God., until This resolves if for you..= A.) "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"...as "the one time Eternal sacrifice for Sin".

= God came here, as Christ on the Cross to solve that sin issue for you.

That's the "Gospel".

Do you believe it?

Jesus said...>"All that believe in Me, i give unto them Eternal Life and they shall never go to Hell, (perish)".

He never said, and never will say, nor did Paul, that you "have to believe that Jesus is God, to be saved"., as that would be faith ABOUT Christ, vs, Faith IN Christ.

So, Fred..... i'll help you all day and night prove that Jesus is God, but, that is not the "gospel".

 

[Fred]

The Cross is the only "component" of the Gospel.

False. Wrong. Ridiculous.

Paul also states the resurrection is as well. See 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[APAK]

False. Wrong. Ridiculous.

Paul also states the resurrection is as well. See 1 Corinthians 15.

It's not all those three words you wrote if you understand that when Jesus said it is 'finished' on the Cross, he meant it. And that meant that his resurrection was assured, certain to occur according scripture; promised by his Father.

 

[Diserner]

It would be inappropriate for elohim or YHVH ever to refer to the Trinity in the OT when in the NT theos regularly refers to the Father alone and never to the Trinity.”

Wow, I completely disagree with this unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Matthias]

Wow, I completely disagree with this unsubstantiated claim.

I think you would probably completely disagree with all concessions trinitarian scholars make to Jewish monotheism.

“Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.”

I don’t know if you’ve heard that before or not, but I presume that you have.

Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. His God is Yahweh. There is no God besides his God.

Jesus has nothing whatsoever to say about the Trinity. The Trinity isn’t his God. The Trinity has never been his God. The Trinity will never be his God.

Jesus himself is a unitarian. His God is only one person, the Father. The personal name of his God is Yahweh.

Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Yahweh is the God of Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus worshipped Yahweh his God. Jesus would never worship any God besides the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never worshipped the Trinity. Jesus never will worship the Trinity.

Jesus ascended to his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus ascended to Yahweh. Jesus didn’t ascend to the Trinity.

Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of Yahweh. Jesus isn’t sitting at the right hand of the Trinity.

There is only one Yahweh, and he is the God and Father of Jesus.

Jesus calls Yahweh his Father and my Father, his God and my God. Jesus never calls the Trinity his God and my God. He never will because the Trinity is not his God and is not my God.

”Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.” I learned that in Sunday School Class when I was just a child. I’ve never forgotten it. And when I reached the age of forty, I put it into practice.

Jesus points us to his God. Jesus points us to Yahweh. Jesus never points anyone to any other God. There is no other God for him to point us to. Yahweh alone, one person, the Father, is the one true God. Yahweh alone is not the Trinity.

If I could somehow go back in time, knowing now what I didn’t know then, I would implore my believed Sunday School teacher to read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

I can’t go back in time. My Sunday School teacher is dead. That door is closed.

But I’m alive. There are doors that are open. I implore everyone who is alive to read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

Those who do will have no other God than the only God whom Jesus points them to.

”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Amen, Paul. Amen, Peter.

Blessed be Yahweh. The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus.

Everything else is idols.

 

[APAK]

I think you would probably completely disagree with all concessions trinitarian scholars make to Jewish monotheism.

“Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.”

I don’t know if you’ve heard that before or not, but I presume that you have.

Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. His God is Yahweh. There is no God besides his God.

Jesus has nothing whatsoever to say about the Trinity. The Trinity isn’t his God. The Trinity has never been his God. The Trinity will never be his God.

Jesus himself is a unitarian. His God is only one person, the Father. The personal name of his God is Yahweh.

Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Yahweh is the God of Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus worshipped Yahweh his God. Jesus would never worship any God besides the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never worshipped the Trinity. Jesus never will worship the Trinity.

Jesus ascended to his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus ascended to Yahweh. Jesus didn’t ascend to the Trinity.

Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of Yahweh. Jesus isn’t sitting at the right hand of the Trinity.

There is only one Yahweh, and he is the God and Father of Jesus.

Jesus calls Yahweh his Father and my Father, his God and my God. Jesus never calls the Trinity his God and my God. He never will because the Trinity is not his God and is not my God.

”Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.” I learned that in Sunday School Class when I was just a child. I’ve never forgotten it. And when I reached the age of forty, I put it into practice.

Jesus points us to his God. Jesus points us to Yahweh. Jesus never points anyone to any other God. There is no other God for him to point us to. Yahweh alone, one person, the Father, is the one true God. Yahweh alone is not the Trinity.

If I could somehow go back in time, knowing now what I didn’t know then, I would implore my believed Sunday School teacher to read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

I can’t go back in time. My Sunday School teacher is dead. That door is closed.

But I’m alive. There are doors that are open. I implore everyone who is alive to read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

Those who do will have no other God than the only God whom Jesus points them to.

”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Amen, Paul. Amen, Peter.

Blessed be Yahweh. The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus.

Everything else is idols.

Well said and most definitely understood and believed.

 

[Fred]

It's not all those three words you wrote if you understand that when Jesus said it is 'finished' on the Cross, he meant it. And that meant that his resurrection was assured, certain to occur according scripture; promised by his Father.

You dodged Corinthians 11:4.

Try again.

 

[Fred]

Jesus has nothing whatsoever to say about the Trinity.

See Matthew 28:19.

Murray Harris: So then, just as in commercial usage payment 'into' someone's name indicated a transfer of money into someone's account, so in baptism there is signified a transference of believers into the permanent possession and safe keeping of the omnipotent Trinity (Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Jesus, page 110).

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-acts-2-church.417/page-7#post-9007

 

[APAK]

You dodged Corinthians 11:4.

Try again.

Try what again Fred? Keep giving you new interpretations of scripture until they fit your theology where you feel comfortable?
And I dodged 2 Corinth 11:4 in the process, aye. I guess this verse concerning false teachings that Paul warned about in Corinth has a lot to do with the gospel, the Cross and salvation.

I need you to get to your point quickly Fred, else I'm a gone with this subject.

Now if you want for some some odd reason a commentary on 2 Corinthians 11:4 and how this relates to the gospel and it does, then let me know, I can oblige.

As a side note: in more words than written in scripture....does not John in his so many words, that those who do not believe that Jesus was born from above, from his Father via his Spirit, and made and born a human mortal person, a human being, made quite differently from than any other human being, is an enemy and against the Son of God, the Christ?

I think you don't believe Jesus was and is a human person, right?

That's right he had all that mystical stuff done to him before he existed only as a divine non-human person, that it's a wonder he did not come out a little dizzy and confused who he was...you know, those extra-scriptural things that made him unmade, uncreated: incarnation, hypostasis and kenosis of his divine nature and more.

 

[Fred]

I guess this verse concerning false teachings that Paul warned about in Corinth has a lot to do with the gospel, the Cross and salvation.

That it does.

I need you to get to your point quickly Fred,

Already did.
See the OP.

else I'm a gone with this subject.

You never really arrived to begin with.


Thanks for making this easy for me.

 

[Matthias]

Well said and most definitely understood and believed.

Idolatry is a powerful delusion.

I’ve been at this for a quarter of a century now. Not very many will respond and read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

They have a powerful hold on their idols and their idols have a stranglehold grip on them.

The man who can break it is Christ Jesus.

Idolatry has them convinced that they are following him; as they read scripture through the eyes of their idol makers.

 

[APAK]

That it does.




Already did.
See the OP.




You never really arrived to begin with.


Thanks for making this easy for me.

So let me then be blunt in answering your query Fred.

IAW 2 Cor 11:4 and other verses...

Yes, I admit my Jesus is different than yours although not different from Paul's Jesus, the Christ.

And you might have a different spirit within you than mine although my Spirit of the Father is not different than Paul's Spirit of the same Father. He and I have the same the Spirit of Christ within us that enables us to possess this same Spirit of God.

Yes, you preach a different Christ as you make him more that our lord and Savior from his Father. And Paul would agree with me.

And yes you preach a quite different message/gospel of salvation as you believe Jesus is actually the one true God who spoke to himself in the Garden and actually died as God on the Cross and then raised himself up from death, as in no life. Paul and I disagree Fred. Paul would be so angry with you that you believe a gospel, a Christ from a deceiving spirit of this world.

See, I answered your OP.

 

[synergy]

I think you would probably completely disagree with all concessions trinitarian scholars make to Jewish monotheism.

“Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.”

I don’t know if you’ve heard that before or not, but I presume that you have.

Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. His God is Yahweh. There is no God besides his God.

Jesus has nothing whatsoever to say about the Trinity. The Trinity isn’t his God. The Trinity has never been his God. The Trinity will never be his God.

Jesus himself is a unitarian. His God is only one person, the Father. The personal name of his God is Yahweh.

Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Yahweh is the God of Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus worshipped Yahweh his God. Jesus would never worship any God besides the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never worshipped the Trinity. Jesus never will worship the Trinity.

Jesus ascended to his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus ascended to Yahweh. Jesus didn’t ascend to the Trinity.

Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of Yahweh. Jesus isn’t sitting at the right hand of the Trinity.

There is only one Yahweh, and he is the God and Father of Jesus.

Jesus calls Yahweh his Father and my Father, his God and my God. Jesus never calls the Trinity his God and my God. He never will because the Trinity is not his God and is not my God.

”Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.” I learned that in Sunday School Class when I was just a child. I’ve never forgotten it. And when I reached the age of forty, I put it into practice.

Jesus points us to his God. Jesus points us to Yahweh. Jesus never points anyone to any other God. There is no other God for him to point us to. Yahweh alone, one person, the Father, is the one true God. Yahweh alone is not the Trinity.

If I could somehow go back in time, knowing now what I didn’t know then, I would implore my believed Sunday School teacher to read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

I can’t go back in time. My Sunday School teacher is dead. That door is closed.

But I’m alive. There are doors that are open. I implore everyone who is alive to read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

Those who do will have no other God than the only God whom Jesus points them to.

”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Amen, Paul. Amen, Peter.

Blessed be Yahweh. The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus.

Everything else is idols.

Only God saves.

(Isa 43:11) I am God; and beside me there is no Savior.

Now notice how Jesus is the only Savior throughout the NT:

Matt 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household.
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we are looking for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
1Tim 1:15 Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 3:6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
2Pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2Pet 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.
2Pet 3:18 But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

So this begs the question. Who is the True Jesus?
Is it the Unitarian Jesus who is just a man and therefore cannot save?
Is it the Muslim Jesus who is very much like the Unitarian Jesus, except that he never underwent the Cross, and therefore cannot save?
Or is it the Trinitarian Jesus who is the Uncreated Word of God who does save because he is God.

 

[APAK]

Idolatry is a powerful delusion.

I’ve been at this for a quarter of a century now. Not very many will respond and read scripture through the eyes of Jesus.

They have a powerful hold on their idols and their idols have a stranglehold grip on them.

The man who can break it is Christ Jesus.

Idolatry has them convinced that they are following him; as they read scripture through the eyes of their idol makers.

I do not understand why 'they' cannot see and understand that Jesus never, never spoke of himself as the one true God. He had and has a God that he and I worship and adore today and into tomorrow.

Spiritual warfare is alive and well on this planet earth.

You know when I read scripture more and more, every day , nearly, I get a clearer picture of the man called Jesus, and what he must have endured whilst on earth. Of course I can only imagine and wonder what it was like to be born from our immortal God, and then being powered by his Spirit at the onset of his mission to the Cross, with the angels in assist mode.

He was and is no mere human being indeed. He is truly the Son of our one God - YHWH. I cannot wait to actually converse with him, and love him in a state of complete awe, humility and wonder for what he did for me and others.

 

[Matthias]

Only God saves.

(Isa 43:11) I am God; and beside me there is no Savior.

Now notice how Jesus is the only Savior throughout the NT:

Matt 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household.
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we are looking for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
1Tim 1:15 Faithful is the Word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 3:6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
2Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
2Pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2Pet 2:20 For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.
2Pet 3:18 But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

So this begs the question. Who is the True Jesus?
Is it the Unitarian Jesus who is just a man and therefore cannot save?
Is it the Muslim Jesus who is very much like the Unitarian Jesus, except that he never underwent the Cross, and therefore cannot save?
Or is it the Trinitarian Jesus who is the Uncreated Word of God who does saves because he is God.

That’s easy. The true Jesus is the one whose God is Yahweh.

Nehemiah 9:27 is the key to this one.

 

[synergy]

That’s easy. The true Jesus is the one whose God is Yahweh.

You totally disregarded Isa 43:11 and all the verses I gave you.
A man, who is not God, cannot save. Only God saves.
Therefore, how can the Unitarian Jesus, being just a man, save you?
Please answer me this.

Nehemiah 9:27 is the key to this one.

Explain how Neh 9:27 directly contradicts, in your mind, all the verses I sent you.

 

[Matthias]

You totally disregarded Isa 43:11 and all the verses I gave you.
A man, who is not God, cannot save. Only God saves.
Therefore, how can the Unitarian Jesus, being just a man, save you?
Please answer me this.

Explain how Neh 9:27 directly contradicts, in your mind, all the verses I sent you.

Nehemiah 9:27 doesn’t contradict the verses you sent me.

Read scripture through the eyes of a unitarian, Jesus, and you’ll see that.

 

[Matthias]

Yahweh has a long track record of using men, of sending saviors, to save his people.

The greatest of those men is the man from Nazareth, the Messiah, Jesus.

”Today in the city of David a savior is born ...”

It wasn’t Yahweh who was born in the city of David; Jesus was.