Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

It's not that these phrases are not shared the way I would need. It's that they are not shared at all in the Bible.

Terms found nowhere in Scripture...

• Deity
• Co-equal
• Co-eternal
• Incarnated
• Eternal son
• Infinite son
• God the son
• One substance
• Persons of God
• God became man
• Eternally begotten
• Pre-existent Christ
• God the Holy Spirit
• Pre-incarnate Christ
• Three persons, three in one
• Trinity, Triune God, Tri-unity
• Two nature's, Hypostatic union

Or any combination of 1st person, 2nd person, 3rd person.

"Computer" is also not mentioned in Scripture. Does that mean that computers do not exist?
"Electricity" is not mentioned in Scripture. Does that mean that computers do not exist?
I could go on and on with things not mentioned in Scripture that exist and are true. But you are wrong about many of the things you list here.
Deity (Col 2:9)
Θεότητος (Theotētos)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 2320: Deity, Godhead. From theos; divinity.

Co-equal - (John 1:1) - The Word (Logos) was WITH God and WAS God. Separate but united; equal.
Co-eternal - Not really sure what that means, but Jesus is eternal (John 1:1, Heb 7:3, Heb 13:8).
Incarnated - (John 1:14) - The Logos took on flesh (incarnated).
became flesh
ἐγένετο (egeneto) σὰρξ (sarx)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1096: A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be, i.e. to become, used with great latitude.
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4561: Flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
Eternal Son - Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is eternal.
God became man - Again, John 1:14 - Logos is God (John 1:1), and the Logos became a man (John 1:14), and He lived among man who beheld His glory.

I could keep going, but I will not for now. Your list is completely false and fabricated to make it look like you know what you are talking about, but there is no truth in you.

 

[amazing grace]

Again, John 17:3 applies "only", monos, or even alone only to God, not to the Father. You continue to fail in giving me even one verse that explicitly says that the Father only (or alone) is the only true God. As this cannot go on forever, I'll give you one more chance to make good on your Arian heretical beliefs. So hop to it and show us some of that Arian intelligence and critical thinking that @Peterlag gloats so much about

And this is eternal life, that they know you (Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. ..... this verse does reference the Father as the only (monos) true God......

Why is it you cannot plainly read? Where is your intelligence?
If Jesus is praying to the Father in John 17:3, which he is, and Jesus says 'YOU' addressing the Father, aka God as the only true God ---- THEN the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

THEREFORE, the Father ALONE is the true God.

 

[synergy]

And this is eternal life, that they know you (Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. ..... this verse does reference the Father as the only (monos) true God......

John 17:3 proves Monotheism (the only true God) which Trinitarianism acknowledges.

John 17:3 does not prove that only the Father or the Father alone is the only true God. That alteration is a unitarian heresy that flies in the face of the fact that the Word was God (John 1:1c) who dwelt on Earth as Jesus (John 1:14).

 

[Runningman]

Follow your own advise

Exodus 3:2–15 (KJV 1900) — 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh

That Yahweh was sent by Yahweh

Genesis 22:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

The angel of God declared himself the God of Bethel the God jacob made a vow to having also identified as Yahweh

Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”

Yahweh sends Yahweh

Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”

Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person



Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.

Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,

Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven

Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name

Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

God says “you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live” (Ex 33:20), and yet Hagar (Gen 16:13), Jacob (Gn 32:30), and Moses (Ex 33:11) are said to have “seen God face to face” in view of their confrontation with this angel. God promises that his very presence will be among the Israelites, and yet it is the angel who goes with them (Ex 23:23). The commander of the army of God is given reverence equal to God’s (Jos 5:13–6:2). The angel seems to possess the full authority and character of God.

And there is a lot more

Post the entire Bible if you wish. John 17:3 is still there and not changing nor bending to your will. Words have meaning and only refers to being alone, sole, single, only. So we have John 17:3 explicitly ruling out the trinity and placing the Father as the one and only true God. Yes, it's true, the trinity is a fake doctrine concerning God. Why would you need to define God using scattered verse as though your doctrine is a tertiary side doctrine? With something as important as who God is, the prophets spoke of God directly, explicitly, and clearly as a single person.

 

[Runningman]

John 17:3 proves Monotheism (the only true God) which Trinitarianism acknowledges.

John 17:3 does not prove that only the Father or the Father alone is the only true God. That alteration is a unitarian heresy that flies in the face of the fact that the Word was God (John 1:1c) who dwelt on Earth as Jesus (John 1:14).

So you acknowledge that John 17:3 debunks the trinitarian version of "monotheism?"

 

[Runningman]

Again, John 17:3 applies "only", monos, or even alone only to God, not to the Father. You continue to fail in giving me even one verse that explicitly says that the Father only (or alone) is the only true God. As this cannot go on forever, I'll give you one more chance to make good on your Arian heretical beliefs. So hop to it and show us some of that Arian intelligence and critical thinking that @Peterlag gloats so much about

No that's all wrong. John 17:3 explicitly states of the Father that He is alone, the only, true God. You not believing this does not mean that it is false, it just proves that you do not have the truth in you.

 

[Peterlag]

"Computer" is also not mentioned in Scripture. Does that mean that computers do not exist?
"Electricity" is not mentioned in Scripture. Does that mean that computers do not exist?
I could go on and on with things not mentioned in Scripture that exist and are true. But you are wrong about many of the things you list here.
Deity (Col 2:9)
Θεότητος (Theotētos)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 2320: Deity, Godhead. From theos; divinity.

Co-equal - (John 1:1) - The Word (Logos) was WITH God and WAS God. Separate but united; equal.
Co-eternal - Not really sure what that means, but Jesus is eternal (John 1:1, Heb 7:3, Heb 13:8).
Incarnated - (John 1:14) - The Logos took on flesh (incarnated).
became flesh
ἐγένετο (egeneto) σὰρξ (sarx)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1096: A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be, i.e. to become, used with great latitude.
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 4561: Flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
Eternal Son - Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is eternal.
God became man - Again, John 1:14 - Logos is God (John 1:1), and the Logos became a man (John 1:14), and He lived among man who beheld His glory.

I could keep going, but I will not for now. Your list is completely false and fabricated to make it look like you know what you are talking about, but there is no truth in you.

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Peterlag]

That is not entirely accurate. Who does John 1:1 say created all things? Was it not the Logos of God which John 1:14 says became flesh and lived among man (Jesus). Yes, it is God who created all things, and Jesus (the Logos of God) is God.

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

 

[Doug Brents]

It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.

Your opinion of what the Jewish people understood is noted, but since you are neither a Jew, nor were you present in ancient times, and also because your opinion contradicts Scripture, your opinion is meaningless.
Further, your claim that "it would have been clearly stated in the Bible" has been demonstrated to be correct: it IS clearly stated in the Bible. The ancient Jewish leadership recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God when He addressed them in the Temple (John 10:33). And as has been stated before, the fact that Jesus claimed to be God would be a lie if He was not, and if He lied then He is unqualified to be our savior. So either He is God, or belief in Him is meaningless and futile.

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

I never said or insinuated that the Gospel of John introduced Genesis. But it does refer back to the Beginning, the time when time began and the world was created. This is clear because it says (in verse 3) that everything (without exception) was created through the Logos of God. And then in verse 14 it says that the Logos (which was and is God) became a man (while still remaining God), and lived among men who beheld His glory (the glory of God).

 

[synergy]

So you acknowledge that John 17:3 debunks the trinitarian version of "monotheism?"

If you would practice good reading comprehension you would have understood that I said the exact opposite. Read again what I wrote:

John 17:3 proves Monotheism (the only true God) which Trinitarianism acknowledges.

 

[synergy]

No that's all wrong. John 17:3 explicitly states of the Father that He is alone, the only, true God. You not believing this does not mean that it is false, it just proves that you do not have the truth in you.

The only way you can make John 17:3 say what you want it to say is by inserting "that He is alone" phrases, foreign to the text itself. When will you stop that snake oil salesmanship of yours?

Well, I gave you one more chance to make good on your Arian heretical beliefs, which by the way fly in the face of John 1:1 and the rest of the Bible, and you came up with absolute nothing. More specifically, your Arian heresies blatantly contradict the fact that the Word was God (John 1:1c) who dwelt on Earth as Jesus (John 1:14). That proves it right here and now that unitarianism is a farce and a buffoonery.

 

[Peterlag]

Your opinion of what the Jewish people understood is noted, but since you are neither a Jew, nor were you present in ancient times, and also because your opinion contradicts Scripture, your opinion is meaningless.
Further, your claim that "it would have been clearly stated in the Bible" has been demonstrated to be correct: it IS clearly stated in the Bible. The ancient Jewish leadership recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God when He addressed them in the Temple (John 10:33). And as has been stated before, the fact that Jesus claimed to be God would be a lie if He was not, and if He lied then He is unqualified to be our savior. So either He is God, or belief in Him is meaningless and futile.

I never said or insinuated that the Gospel of John introduced Genesis. But it does refer back to the Beginning, the time when time began and the world was created. This is clear because it says (in verse 3) that everything (without exception) was created through the Logos of God. And then in verse 14 it says that the Logos (which was and is God) became a man (while still remaining God), and lived among men who beheld His glory (the glory of God).

John 10:33 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine." Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[Runningman]

If you would practice good reading comprehension you would have understood that I said the exact opposite. Read again what I wrote:

Jesus didn't define the only true God as a trinity though, but rather as the Father alone. You seemed to acknowledge the kind of monotheism Jesus taught about, but now you seem to disagree with Jesus again. I'm going with Jesus who was clearly a monotheistic Jew in the Unitarian sense.

 

[mikesw]

John 10:33 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God." In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine."

John 10:33-35 is not used to say I am the Trinity. They recognized his equivalence to God though. I have no idea why you relate what other people say of a man, as you point out in Acts. Those other people are not speaking as Jews. This shows the error of thinking common among unitarians.

Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."

That is so ignorant of Jewish culture. Jesus said enough that the Jews recognized Jesus' claim to being God. Jesus did not deny it, as the unitarians so hoped that he would. Instead, he referred to a judgmental passage that mentioned about some being called gods. That passage does not apply to Jesus in judgment but shows the guilt of the Jews.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

That is unitarian effort to deny scripture, not the logical choices of interpretation.

 

[amazing grace]

John 17:3 proves Monotheism (the only true God) which Trinitarianism acknowledges.

John 17:3 does not prove that only the Father or the Father alone is the only true God. That alteration is a unitarian heresy that flies in the face of the fact that the Word was God (John 1:1c) who dwelt on Earth as Jesus (John 1:14).

John 17:3 DOES prove that the Father alone is the true God because Jesus is speaking to the Father when he says 'that they may know YOU the only true God.' YOU is the FATHER.

John 1:1c 'Word' is the subject making 'God' the predicate nominative. Therefore, the noun 'God' is descriptive of the subject. The 'word' was God i.e. the word fully expresses who God is, or the word was the full expression of God. . . the word became embodied in flesh and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, Jesus came to make him (God) known---Jesus came to show us the Father.

Yep, Trinitarianism is a pretend monotheism - you do not have one entity as God - you have 'three persons' that you call 'God'. . . that is NOT monotheism.

 

[mikesw]

John 17:3 DOES prove that the Father alone is the true God because Jesus is speaking to the Father when he says 'that they may know YOU the only true God.' YOU is the FATHER.

Pure bias expressed there when speaking against who Jesus is. The passage including verse 5 affirms the pre-existent One who became born as Jesus. Verse 3 is telling the disciples that other concepts of God and of other gods are false. This was not to deny the deity of Christ shown in John 1. You make the scriptures totally incoherent and contradictory.

John 1:1c 'Word' is the subject making 'God' the predicate nominative. Therefore, the noun 'God' is descriptive of the subject. The 'word' was God i.e. the word fully expresses who God is, or the word was the full expression of God. . . the word became embodied in flesh and dwelt among us as the only Son from the Father, Jesus came to make him (God) known---Jesus came to show us the Father.

Yep, Trinitarianism is a pretend monotheism - you do not have one entity as God - you have 'three persons' that you call 'God'. . . that is NOT monotheism.

Your idea on John 1:1 totally ignores the use of metalepsis to represent the One with God in creation. It was not words of God that were identified as a separate entity. We can use Peterlag's concept against you -- words are not conscious entities. However the characteristics of the logos identify what only a conscious One can do. John 1 identifies that conscious One as the one to become flesh and known as Jesus. Duh. (sorry for my theological use of the word duh.)

 

[Doug Brents]

John 10:33 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

You claim this initially about every passage with speaks of the deity of Jesus Christ. Yet you are proven wrong about every one of them. How sad for you.

Had the translators rendered the Greek text in verse 33 as they did in verse 34 and 35, then it would read, "...you, a man, claim to be a god." In the next two verses, John 10:34 and 35, the exact same word (theos, without the article) is translated as "god" and not "God."

In the Psalm which Jesus quotes, the writer states that the Creator God (אֱלֹהִ֣ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)(which is the word that in Greek is translated "theos")) stands in the midst of the gods (אֱלֹהִ֣ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)). We know there is only one Creator God, yet the same word is used for the lesser gods among whom He stands, and then all mankind is called gods (אֱלֹהִ֣ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)).

In Acts 12:22, Herod is called theos without the article, so the translators translate it "god." The same is true in Acts 28:6, when Paul had been bitten by a viper and the people expected him to die. When he did not die, "...they changed their minds and said he was a god." Since theos has no article, and since it is clear from the context that the reference is not about the true God, theos is translated "a god." It is a general principle that theos without the article should be "a god," or "divine." Since there is no evidence that Jesus was teaching that he was God anywhere in the context, and since the Pharisees would have never believed that this man was somehow Yahweh, it makes no sense that they would be saying that he said he was "God." Now since Jesus was clearly teaching that he was sent by God and was doing God's work. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the Pharisees would say he was claiming to be "a god" or "divine."

Jesus was claiming equality with the one creator God, the only truly divine being that exists. The Pharisees accused Him of claiming equality with God (which was true, and therefore (in His case) alone not a sin). But they did not know it was truth, otherwise they would not have sought to kill Him.

The people who used the word "theos" for Paul probably thought he was God, but we know that Paul was/is not God, so it is translated as "a god". Herod is called "theos", and when he did not give the glory to the real God, he was struck down by Him. The same goes for the other places where the term is used.

The interpretation of each usage of a word is reliant upon the context of that usage, and they are not all alike.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Worthless accusations that flow from your perverted understanding of God's Scripture.

 

[amazing grace]

Pure bias expressed there when speaking against who Jesus is. The passage including verse 5 affirms the pre-existent One who became born as Jesus. Verse 3 is telling the disciples that other concepts of God and of other gods are false. This was not to deny the deity of Christ shown in John 1. You make the scriptures totally incoherent and contradictory.

We are discussing John 17:3 and John 17:3 --- YOU is the Father and Jesus says HE, the Father alone is the true God.
No, it is not contradictory at all when you take into account how many times scripture recognizes God as the Father and that God alone is God . . . no other besides him.

Your idea on John 1:1 totally ignores the use of metalepsis to represent the One with God in creation. It was not words of God that were identified as a separate entity. We can use Peterlag's concept against you -- words are not conscious entities. However the characteristics of the logos identify what only a conscious One can do. John 1 identifies that conscious One as the one to become flesh and known as Jesus. Duh. (sorry for my theological use of the word duh.)

According to AI this is what metalepsis is in John 1:1: Metalepsis in John 1 refers to the blurring of narrative levels, particularly where the 'beloved disciple' acts as both a character within the story and a narrator for the reader, creating a unique relationship between the two. This blurring, or transgression between the world of the telling and the world of the told, strengthens the gospel's claim to truth by enhancing the reader's connection to the narrative and reinforcing its authority.
So, I am not going through metalepsis with you again - it does not relate with how you are trying to use it.

God's word----the full expression of who God is characteristically and God's wisdom became embodied in the man, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (John 1:14) That is NOT God becoming flesh, i.e. a human being.

 

[mikesw]

We are discussing John 17:3 and John 17:3 --- YOU is the Father and Jesus says HE, the Father alone is the true God.
No, it is not contradictory at all when you take into account how many times scripture recognizes God as the Father and that God alone is God . . . no other besides him.

No man is an island. No verse is an island. You are trying to control the argument by avoiding the context.

According to AI this is what metalepsis is in John 1:1: Metalepsis in John 1 refers to the blurring of narrative levels, particularly where the 'beloved disciple' acts as both a character within the story and a narrator for the reader, creating a unique relationship between the two. This blurring, or transgression between the world of the telling and the world of the told, strengthens the gospel's claim to truth by enhancing the reader's connection to the narrative and reinforcing its authority.
So, I am not going through metalepsis with you again - it does not relate with how you are trying to use it.

I do not remember you sharing anything about metalepsis. The AI does not even have anything related to John's gospel. Metalepsis is used despite any of your failure to understand allegory. I have no idea what you mean by your beloved disciple point either. It has no significance about rejecting who Jesus is. (I would have worded this differently but I missed that you had sought AI for your interpretation of scripture.)

God's word----the full expression of who God is characteristically and God's wisdom became embodied in the man, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (John 1:14) That is NOT God becoming flesh, i.e. a human being.

You might as well just start with John 2 and forget John 1 totally.

 

[Doug Brents]

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Further evidence that God is not a singular entity is the usage of the Hebrew word "echad" when referring to God in the Shema. You see, there are two words in Hebrew that mean "one". "Echad" is not the only Hebrew word for "one"; there is also "yachid". While "yachid" means "one" in the singular sense of being alone or unique, "echad" is used for a unified or compound "one," such as a married couple becoming "one flesh,". And "echad" is the word that is used to describe God, not "yachid".