Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

Where did you ever get the idea that I'm denying that the word "only" can mean alone? You are totally out to lunch man. This is hilarious. You are coming up with any possible hair-brained idea hoping to save face. You've definitely lost it.

Several of us have confirmed that you are either maliciously inserting an English word where it is not present in John 17:3 or you are in need of a new pair of glasses. So which is it? Only you can answer that.

I didn't insert any words. The definition of monos includes alone so it's appropriate to use the word only the way it is defined. Saying the Father is the only true God or the Father alone is the true God mean the same things.

 

[Peterlag]

You are ignoring the facts

Autos is a third person masculine pronoun and not neuter

appearing twice

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

Translations use him because the pronoun is masculine.

logos is also masculine.

Hello

We have "autos" masculine twice, and we have "logos" masculine

This is not the mismatch you bring up concerning the verse with the Holy Spirit.

And so your argument does nothing at all, affecting what is being addressed in the John verses.

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

 

[TomL]

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

You are dodging the current issue

Autos is a third person masculine pronoun and not neuter

appearing twice

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

Translations use him because the pronoun is masculine.

logos is also masculine.

Hello

We have "autos" masculine twice, and we have "logos" masculine

This is not the mismatch you brought up about mismatched genders.

And so your argument does nothing at all, affecting what is being addressed in the John verses.

John 1:1-3 does not support your theology

 

[TomL]

This is getting funny. You actually deny that the word only means Alone as per the explicit definition of the word? I have seen people argue obscure things, but denying undeniable things is a new low. Scripture is bigger than your religion and who you feel God is. God is the Father, who alone is the true God just as Jesus said.

And yet scripture states Jesus is God

John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 

[TomL]

Yes I got it correct. Did you notice in John 1:1-3 that there is a different between theos and Ton Theon? The Word is not The God, but The God is the Creator.

You ignored multiple verses where the article Ton did not appear

According to your argument, then you are denying they reference God the father

BTW you will find multiple verses/sections using Theos with and without the article still referring to the same person

John 1:6–13 (NIV) — 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The ton does not appear before the nouns I bolded

So according to you john was sent by other than the God

Those who believe are not children of the God

And not born of the God

Oh and btw you have the world created through Christ

Now do you want to actually address the two arguments?

 

[TomL]

I think you are confusing your religion with Scripture. In the Bible, Jesus isn't God or the Creator. The Bible explcitly says Jesus is created and a man, there are no instructions to worship or pray to Jesus.

Um Jesus is worshipped here


John 9:38And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
Matt 28:9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
Matt 28:17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
Matt 14:33And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
Luke 24:52And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Heb 1:6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Rev 5:12–14saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[synergy]

I didn't insert any words. The definition of monos includes alone so it's appropriate to use the word only the way it is defined. Saying the Father is the only true God or the Father alone is the true God mean the same things.

Saying "the Father is the only true God" allows the Word to also be the only true God (John 1:1c). That's Monotheism which Trinitarianism is perfectly in line with.

Saying "the Father alone is the true God" flies in the face of the fact that also "the Word was God" (John 1:1c). Once you stop with your snake-oil manipulations of John 17:3, you will begin to see the Truth.

 

[synergy]

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

Since when is a metaphor God (John 1:1c)? Through which metaphor was the entire universe created (John 1:3)? Since when can a metaphor dwell on Earth as an actual Person (John 1:14)? Only in your hallucinations is that subjectively possible for you.

 

[Runningman]

Saying "the Father is the only true God" allows the Word to also be the only true God (John 1:1c). That's Monotheism which Trinitarianism is perfectly in line with.

Saying "the Father alone is the true God" flies in the face of the fact that also "the Word was God" (John 1:1c). Once you stop with your snake-oil manipulations of John 17:3, you will begin to see the Truth.

Then you clearly don't know what the word "only" means. Do yourself a favor, get honest, and read up on the word monos in John 17:3. It doesn't allow for other candidates to be the true God with the Father.

Hence, the word "alone" is a synonym for "only." Means the exact same thing in the context of John 17:3 and this fact about the Father being the true God alone is in the Bible from cover to cover. Yes, this does indeed defeat trinitarianism completely.

 

[civic]

Then you clearly don't know what the word "only" means. Do yourself a favor, get honest, and read up on the word monos in John 17:3. It doesn't allow for other candidates to be the true God with the Father. Hence, the only "alone" is a synonym for "only." Means the exact same thing in the context of John 17:3 and this fact about the Father being the only true God is in the Bible from cover to cover. Yes, this does indeed defeat trinitarianism completely.

Correct you don't know what ONLY means since Jesus is the One and ONLY LORD- Jude 1:4.

παρεισεδύησαν γάρ τινες ἄνθρωποι, οἱ πάλαι προγεγραμμένοι εἰς τοῦτο τὸ κρίμα, ἀσεβεῖς, τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν χάριτα μετατιθέντες εἰς ἀσέλγειαν καὶ τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενο

That according to your above comments completely eliminates the Father from being called LORD anywhere in the bible.

next fallacy.............

end of discussion

unitarianism just completely failed

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Correct you don't know what ONLY means since Jesus is the One and ONLY LORD- Jude 1:4.

That according to your above comments completely eliminates the Father from being called LORD anywhere in the bible.

next fallacy.............

end of discussion

unitarianism just completely failed

hope this helps !!!

John 17:3 proves the Father is the true God alone. Deal with it.

 

[civic]

John 17:3 proves the Father is the true God alone. Deal with it.

Jude 1:4 proves that Jesus ALONE is the One and Only Lord in both testaments.

deal with it

next strawman

hoper this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Jude 1:4 proves that Jesus ALONE is the One and Only Lord in both testaments.

deal with it

next strawman

hoper this helps !!!

So let me get this straight... you and @synergy think you can just deny what Only means in John 17:3 despite every lexicon, dictionary, and concordance stating it means Alone and that is somehow a valid argument?

Also, yes Jesus is "OUR" only Lord. Guess who Jesus' ONLY Lord is. Care to take a swing at that?

 

[civic]

Jude 1:4 coincides with Peter below

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

And Paul below the One Lord who is Jesus

Romans 10:9-13
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

 

[civic]

So let me get this straight... you and @synergy think you can just deny what Only means in John 17:3 despite every lexicon, dictionary, and concordance stating it means Alone and that is somehow a valid argument?

Also, yes Jesus is "OUR" only Lord. Guess who Jesus' ONLY Lord is. Care to take a swing at that?

another failed argument.

monos as you said can only mean God just as it can only mean Lord.

you are in a giant pickle thats impossible to reconcile and shows your bias and inability to apply the meaning of words consistently.

next fallacy

 

[civic]

And we know there is ONLY ONE Lord identified in many places by the inspired Apostles as Jesus- see also 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 4:5.

down goes unitarianism with the truth regarding the One Lord, Only Lord of the 66 books of the
bible.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

another failed argument.

monos as you said can only mean God just as it can only mean Lord.

you are in a giant pickle thats impossible to reconcile and shows your bias and inability to apply the meaning of words consistently.

next fallacy

None of this some how removes the word only and what it means from John 17:3. It still means the Father is the true God alone. It explicitly states that, you're blinding yourself.

 

[civic]

None of this some how removes the word only and what it means from John 17:3. It still means the Father is the true God alone. It explicitly states that, you're blinding yourself.

None of this some how removes the word only and what it means from Jude 1:4 It still means the Son is the one Lord alone. It explicitly states that, you're blinding yourself.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

None of this some how removes the word only and what it means from Jude 1:4 It still means the Son is the one Lord alone. It explicitly states that, you're blinding yourself.

hope this helps !!!

Yes, let's go with what the Bible says and not try to change any of it, but as you know there are manuscript variations for Jude 4, but none for John 17:3.

Jesus being "OUR" only Lord and master is proper because Jesus is the Lord of the church and I am a member of his body. I follow the directions the Father taught Jesus to give to us. So we have a Lord and Jesus also has a Lord per 1 Cor. 11:3. So there is a place for the Father being Lord and Jesus being Lord because there is a hierarchy. Jesus is not an equal Lord with the Father because Jesus is below God in rank.

Jude 1
4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[civic]

Yes, let's go with what the Bible says and not try to change any of it, but as you know there are manuscript variations for Jude 4, but none for John 17:3.

Jesus being "OUR" only Lord and master is proper because Jesus is the Lord of the church and I am a member of his body. I follow the directions the Father taught Jesus to give to us. So we have a Lord and Jesus also has a Lord per 1 Cor. 11:3. So there is a place for the Father being Lord and Jesus being Lord because there is a hierarchy. Jesus is not an equal Lord with the Father because Jesus is below God in rank.

Jude 1
4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

eisegesis to explain away the meaning of the word monon-only

another failure

and John 17:3 doesn't refute John 17:5 where the Son is alone with the Father before creation. And the Son is equal with the Father in Eternal Life.

next fallacy