Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

It's a mess...

A huge great big mess with billions of Chriatians learning nothing from their churches. They walk out of those buildings every Sunday not knowing who God is. Not knowing who the Christ is. And have no clue what the spirit is or how it works. It's a mess.

ATTACH=full 2232 ATTACH

Peterlag has lost any remnant of credibility in this post since it shows his total lack of understanding of the Triune God and scriptures pertaining to it. The confusion of the unitarian is quite evident here and is what is reflected in the posted image rather than confusion of Trinitarians. Also, it seems there are 50 different non-trinitarian views muddled into this post rather than a Trinitarian view.

 

[Doug Brents]

He didn't say they are God did he?

Yes, He did; several times.

Yes, we reviewed them all and you decided on your own accord that is what Jesus said, but when Jesus plainly stated who God is, you demonstrated you are atheistic about it.

Nope, Scripture dictates what I believe, because Scripture is the only authority in these matters. I didn't "decide on my own". I read what Scripture says and act accordingly.

Bowing at the knee is not the kind of true worship Jesus taught to give to God.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

According to Scripture, Jesus is still a man. Do you not believe that?

No, Jesus is not still a man (2 Cor 3:17, 1 Cor 15:45). He is in Heaven with the Father, and sees the Father as He is, because He is like Him, just as we will be when this world ends (1 John 3:2).

 

[synergy]

Trinitarianism is not scripture. It's 100% theology decorated with Bible verses. None of the verses even say what the theology initially posits. Maybe you didn't notice that?

How about the hypostatic union... ahem... the Bible never says Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

You continue to despise John 1:1c. This is a product of your Gaffes 3, 6, 7, & 12.
As for Jesus being 100% man, I'm sure you believe that.

How about Jesus resurrecting himself? No one ever said Jesus did that after he died.

Two more Gaffes on your part:
1. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself (John 10:18). New Gaffe #18.
2. His Resurrection was a Trinitarian event (Rom 8:11, Gal 1:1) much like his Birth and Baptism.

Praying to Jesus? No instructions for Christains to do that in the Bible.

Paul clarifies in 1 Cor. 1:2 that Christians are those who “call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.” This is exactly how Yahweh was prayed to in the OT, by calling on Yahweh (e.g., Joel 2:32). Stephen is a perfect example of doing that in Acts 7:59–60:

> “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’”

Are you a Christian as defined by Paul in 1 Cor 1:2 or will your refusal become another one of your growing number of Gaffes?

Worshiping Jesus? No instructions for Christains to do that in the Bible.

Now in Heaven, Jesus sits on his Father's Throne towards where all of Heaven's worship is being directed to (Rev 3:21). Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to do that, with arms folded, because of Jesus' presence on the Father's Throne. New Gaffe #19.

Believing in Jesus as God to be saved? Never stated in the Bible.

This heresy of yours flies in the face of the entire Bible.

Romans 10:9 – “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

The Greek word Kyrios (Lord) is the very word used in the Septuagint for Yahweh. Paul is not asking for mere respect toward Jesus; he’s requiring acknowledgement of His God identity.

John 8:24 – Jesus Himself said, “Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”

The Greek reads literally, “Unless you believe that I AM (egō eimi),” echoing God’s name in Exodus 3:14 (“I AM who I AM”). Jesus is declaring that belief in His “I AM” God identity is required for salvation, especially for those who should have known better like the Pharisees who Jesus rebuked.

This is now your Gaffe #20.

Jesus pre-existing? He didn't say anything under any discernible name or title in the Old Testament.

Jesus preexisted as the Word before the Word tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). This is a repeat of Gaffe #2.

Jesus incarnating? No prophecies or statements about Jesus incarnating.

Again, you're repeating Gaffe #2.

I should do a running count of each Gaffe to see which one you're repeating the most.

God is a trinity? No examples of God being a trinity or described as such in the Bible.

Jesus' Baptism is just one of many examples of Trinity manifestations.

There's a lot more. Please take this seriously.

When will you take your Gaffes seriously?

List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Word of God in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full.authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on the that Throne.
20. Belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh) is required for our salvation.

 

[Elliot]

So, who did Jesus claim to be? Who does the Bible say He is? First, He is God in the flesh. Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

 

[synergy]

So, who did Jesus claim to be? Who does the Bible say He is? First, He is God in the flesh. Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

Correct. The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14).

IOW, Jesus is the Word who is God. Jesus is God.

 

[Peterlag]

Hebrews 1:2 "by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir"​

The fact that God appointed the Son to be “heir” shows that God and the Son are not equal. For the Son to be the “heir” means that there was a time when he was not the owner. The word “heir” is a common one and, because death and inheritance are a part of every culture, it occurs in all the biblical languages. Any dictionary will show that an heir is one who inherits, succeeds, or receives an estate, rank, title, or office of another. By definition, you cannot be an heir if you are already the owner. No one in history ever wrote a will that said “My heir and the inheritor of my estate is ME.” If Christ is God, then he cannot be “heir.” The only way he can be an heir is by not being the original owner. That Christ is an “heir” is inconsistent with Trinitarian doctrine, which states that Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. If Christ were God, then he was part owner all along and thus is not the “heir” at all.

 

[mikesw]

Hebrews 1:2 "by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir"​

The fact that God appointed the Son to be “heir” shows that God and the Son are not equal. For the Son to be the “heir” means that there was a time when he was not the owner. The word “heir” is a common one and, because death and inheritance are a part of every culture, it occurs in all the biblical languages. Any dictionary will show that an heir is one who inherits, succeeds, or receives an estate, rank, title, or office of another. By definition, you cannot be an heir if you are already the owner. No one in history ever wrote a will that said “My heir and the inheritor of my estate is ME.” If Christ is God, then he cannot be “heir.” The only way he can be an heir is by not being the original owner. That Christ is an “heir” is inconsistent with Trinitarian doctrine, which states that Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. If Christ were God, then he was part owner all along and thus is not the “heir” at all.

Hmmm. Maybe Peterlag could study deeper into the topic and report back whether such nuances are explained. We summarize the testimony of scripture as reflecting a Triune God. The aspects of that have to be sorted out with recognition that Jesus also has a body that he did not have from eternal past. The idea of equality I think is recognized as to essence but the Father and Son obviously can have separate activities, as seen in what you note. Dont reject scripture just because you are confused on this point.

Maybe a problem you have is that you use the English dictionary to restrict what God can do. You have already used the dictionary to deny allegorical descriptions of the divinity of Christ. You seem to want to continue using the dictionary to find more things of scripture to deny.

 

[synergy]

Hebrews 1:2 "by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir"​

The fact that God appointed the Son to be “heir” shows that God and the Son are not equal. For the Son to be the “heir” means that there was a time when he was not the owner. The word “heir” is a common one and, because death and inheritance are a part of every culture, it occurs in all the biblical languages. Any dictionary will show that an heir is one who inherits, succeeds, or receives an estate, rank, title, or office of another. By definition, you cannot be an heir if you are already the owner. No one in history ever wrote a will that said “My heir and the inheritor of my estate is ME.” If Christ is God, then he cannot be “heir.” The only way he can be an heir is by not being the original owner. That Christ is an “heir” is inconsistent with Trinitarian doctrine, which states that Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. If Christ were God, then he was part owner all along and thus is not the “heir” at all.

We already know that the Word of God (aka the Son of God) has a different role than what the Father has. That does not negate the fact that "the Word was God". Both the Father and the Word have the same God nature which utterly destroys the unitarian heresy.

 

[Peterlag]

We already know that the Word of God (aka the Son of God) has a different role than what the Father has. That does not negate the fact that "the Word was God". Both the Father and the Word have the same God nature which utterly destroys the unitarian heresy.

The Epistles are what teaches us about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the doctrine for the Christian to learn what Jesus Christ accomplised. In these Epistles addressed to the Christian we find no statements about a living Word as @Runningman has pointed out.

The meaning of “heir” in Hebrews 1:2 makes no sense if Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal, or co-possessor with God. The text clearly says God appointed the son as heir. This means he was not always in possession. He received authority, dominion, and inheritance from someone greater. That is why passages like Acts 2:36 say “God has made him both Lord and Christ.”

Jesus was appointed heir, given a name above every name (Philippians 2:9) and seated at God's right hand (Hebrews 1:3) after making purification for sins. If Jesus were truly co-equal with God, none of this language would make sense. You do not appoint God as heir. You do not exalt God higher. You do not give God a name He did not already possess.

The Trinitarian system collapses under the weight of these plain Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the heir and that proves he is not the source or origin.

cc: @mikesw

 

[synergy]

The Epistles are what teaches us about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the doctrine for the Christian to learn what Jesus Christ accomplised. In these Epistles addressed to the Christian we find no statements about a living Word as @Runningman has pointed out.

Runningman is not the authority here, the Bible is. Crack open your OT and go to 1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3.

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a figure or just a thought. He is God.

The meaning of “heir” in Hebrews 1:2 makes no sense if Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal, or co-possessor with God. The text clearly says God appointed the son as heir. This means he was not always in possession. He received authority, dominion, and inheritance from someone greater. That is why passages like Acts 2:36 say “God has made him both Lord and Christ.”

Just like your children can be heir of your inheritance, the same way Jesus was made heir of his Father's inheritance. That does not change the fact that the Word was God by nature.

Jesus was appointed heir, given a name above every name (Philippians 2:9) and seated at God's right hand (Hebrews 1:3) after making purification for sins. If Jesus were truly co-equal with God, none of this language would make sense. You do not appoint God as heir. You do not exalt God higher. You do not give God a name He did not already possess.

You're mixing roles with nature and making a mess of things. Roles are what we do and that can change. Nature is what/who we are and that never changes. Learn the difference between roles and nature.

The Trinitarian system collapses under the weight of these plain Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the heir and that proves he is not the source or origin.

Unitarianism collapses and explodes from the very first verse of John and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[brightfame52]

It appears that Jesus is Jehovah God by this passage in Zech 14 that seems to be indicating the 2 nd Coming of Christ, obeserve Zech 14:1-5

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The word Lord throughout this passage is the Hebrew word Yᵊhōvâ:
Jehovah = "the existing One"

1. the proper name of the one true God

Now what Lord we know will come with His Saints with Him but the Lord Jesus Christ, when He returns in Judgment
Look at Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1 Thess 3:13

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Also how can the Lords feet stand on the Mt of olives unless its the feet of the God Man the Lord Jesus Christ ?

So this is more OT scripture Testimony Jesus is Jehovah !

 

[mikesw]

It appears that Jesus is Jehovah God by this passage in Zech 14 that seems to be indicating the 2 nd Coming of Christ, obeserve Zech 14:1-5

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

The word Lord throughout this passage is the Hebrew word Yᵊhōvâ:
Jehovah = "the existing One"

1. the proper name of the one true God

Now what Lord we know will come with His Saints with Him but the Lord Jesus Christ, when He returns in Judgment
Look at Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1 Thess 3:13

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Also how can the Lords feet stand on the Mt of olives unless its the feet of the God Man the Lord Jesus Christ ?

So this is more OT scripture Testimony Jesus is Jehovah !

I suggest to listen to Steve Gregg's sharing on Zech 14. He explains the symbolic meaning of the standing on the Mt. of Olives as helping the people flee Jerusalem in AD70

The Narrow Path | Verse by Verse

thenarrowpath.com

 

[brightfame52]

I suggest to listen to Steve Gregg's sharing on Zech 14. He explains the symbolic meaning of the standing on the Mt. of Olives as helping the people flee Jerusalem in AD70

The Narrow Path | Verse by Verse

thenarrowpath.com

Im good

 

[mikesw]

Im good

Only God is good. Gregg had been a dispensationalist, so he knows what they have believed. It helps to look at the chapter in perspective of the whole letter.

 

[brightfame52]

If Jesus isn't God, and yet commands one to believe in Him as God or as they would believe in God, then He is Blaspheming and a deceiver and Idolatry, Lets read Jn 14:1

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Now believe also is a present active imperative, a command

 

[Peterlag]

Runningman is not the authority here, the Bible is. Crack open your OT and go to 1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3.

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a figure or just a thought. He is God.

Just like your children can be heir of your inheritance, the same way Jesus was made heir of his Father's inheritance. That does not change the fact that the Word was God by nature.

You're mixing roles with nature and making a mess of things. Roles are what we do and that can change. Nature is what/who we are and that never changes. Learn the difference between roles and nature.

Unitarianism collapses and explodes from the very first verse of John and there is nothing you can do about it.

The word of the Lord came unto me saying... "most Christians say they put God first. But they don't. They put themselves first." And I'm not God.

 

[synergy]

The word of the Lord came unto me saying... "most Christians say they put God first. But they don't. They put themselves first."

So take His advise and put Him first by recognizing Him as the Uncreated Word of God.

And I'm not God.

John never got that memo.

Looks like you're back to smoking some strong weed again.

 

[Runningman]

The Epistles are what teaches us about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the doctrine for the Christian to learn what Jesus Christ accomplised. In these Epistles addressed to the Christian we find no statements about a living Word as @Runningman has pointed out.

The meaning of “heir” in Hebrews 1:2 makes no sense if Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal, or co-possessor with God. The text clearly says God appointed the son as heir. This means he was not always in possession. He received authority, dominion, and inheritance from someone greater. That is why passages like Acts 2:36 say “God has made him both Lord and Christ.”

Jesus was appointed heir, given a name above every name (Philippians 2:9) and seated at God's right hand (Hebrews 1:3) after making purification for sins. If Jesus were truly co-equal with God, none of this language would make sense. You do not appoint God as heir. You do not exalt God higher. You do not give God a name He did not already possess.

The Trinitarian system collapses under the weight of these plain Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the heir and that proves he is not the source or origin.

cc: @mikesw

Despite the Bible describing Jesus as one who received things, inherited things, was given things, granted things, made into things, they are incapable of understanding Jesus didn't inherently have any of it. Trintiarianism is a very liberal religion that relies heavily on philosophy. You will often see them reject what the Bible literally says when it anhilates the trinity, but when they find something literal that seems to help the trinity they will use it. This shows awareness that they aren't as braindead as they seem, but rather just only believe very little of what the Bible literally says.

They aren't Christians and we should stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are or are interested in learning the truth. As far as I am concerned as this point, this site exists solely for the sake of outreach to help the lost apostate trinitarian church.

 

[brightfame52]

Despite the Bible describing Jesus as one who received things, inherited things, was given things, granted things, made into things, they are incapable of understanding Jesus didn't inherently have any of it. Trintiarianism is a very liberal religion that relies heavily on philosophy. You will often see them reject what the Bible literally says when it anhilates the trinity, but when they find something literal that seems to help the trinity they will use it. This shows awareness that they aren't as braindead as they seem, but rather just only believe very little of what the Bible literally says.

They aren't Christians and we should stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are or are interested in learning the truth. As far as I am concerned as this point, this site exists solely for the sake of outreach to help the lost apostate trinitarian church.

You talking about Jesus as Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

You talking about Jesus as Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is a mediator between God and man. Isn't a mediator a go between for seperate parties?