Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

This battle you're having is going to force you to deal with what you are before you'll understand it. That is why the Scriptures are written the way they're written.

You have choices to make. If you keep going in this, you will find out what you really are. You will be left with "no excuse".

You will find it will not work out the way you are imagining.

I'll ask one more time.

Is Jesus Christ better than you?

I dont even remember you asking this before. I have mostly just been trying to pull you out of the ditch you're in. Yes Jesus is for sure better than me.

Now my turn.

Is God better than Jesus?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your position is the Brenton's Septuagint was made by someone who doesn't know Greek or how to translate it? You're getting desperate to start attacking Scripture at this point.

Poor manuscripts. Better than some. Worse than others.

Such arguments are sign of your lack of knowledge. Don't reference others without being prepared for such. You're not prepared for this. You blindly use things you find without really knowing them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The word of God is personified in Hebrews poetry (Psalms) but never said to be an actual person. So the established precedent is that the word (of God) is not actually a person, but a thing personified. My interpretation of John 1:1 has a better exegetical foundation than the one you and @synergy have.

The word is personified in Hebrew poetry (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11); and consequent upon this concrete and independent representation, divine attributes are predicated of it (Psalm 34:4; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:105)

Your turn. Show me where the Word is a person or being in the OT. Good luck!

I'm well aware of this but you're going to deep into the subject to start with. You make those mistakes rather often.

I asked you to detail the difference between Person and Personification. There is a huge difference to be found in this. You're either missing it or ignoring it.

Please try again.

 

[Runningman]

Poor manuscripts. Better than some. Worse than others.

Such arguments are sign of your lack of knowledge. Don't reference others without being prepared for such. You're not prepared for this. You blindly use things you find without really knowing them.

Jesus was not ever called everlasting Father, Prince of peace, Mighty God, etc anywhere in the Bible contrary to Isaiah 9:6 saying "he will be called" those things. You're in denial. I'll keep working with you. Eventually you'll be a Untiarian.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You will find it will not work out the way you are imagining.

I dont even remember you asking this before. I have mostly just been trying to pull you out of the ditch you're in. Yes Jesus is for sure better than me.

Now my turn.

Is God better than Jesus?

Glad you asked. We need to get into what you "see" as better. Different isn't better. Just different.

The Father is different than the Son but relative to "rank, authority, power" and many other things, they are no different.

 

[Runningman]

I'm well aware of this but you're going to deep into the subject to start with. You make those mistakes rather often.

I asked you to detail the difference between Person and Personification. There is a huge difference to be found in this. You're either missing it or ignoring it.

Please try again.

Exegesis is the clear elaboration and interpretation of Scripture. One may use Scripture to interpret Scripture and inform how concepts should be understood. Your eisegesis is that the word is literally God, without precedent, abruptly out of the blue, then it was never repeatead again by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, or Jesus. Hmm. Sounds like you should base your entire religion around one verse?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus was not ever called everlasting Father, Prince of peace, Mighty God, etc anywhere in the Bible contrary to Isaiah 9:6 saying "he will be called" those things. You're in denial. I'll keep working with you. Eventually you'll be a Untiarian.

I read that the first time you wrote. Give me the courtesy of not repeating such things when I've already dealt with it.

I made a distinct argument concerning ἀρχῇ. I've been having fun arguing with Grok over it. Guess what. Grok agrees with me. Grok is rather smart at times.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Exegesis is the clear elaboration and interpretation of Scripture. One may use Scripture to interpret Scripture and inform how concepts should be understood. Your eisegesis is that the word is literally God, without precedent, abruptly out of the blue, then it was never repeatead again by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, or Jesus. Hmm. Sounds like you should base your entire religion around one verse?

Don't do that to me. You're deflecting. What is the difference between the English word "Person" and "Personification"?

 

[Runningman]

Glad you asked. We need to get into what you "see" as better. Different isn't better. Just different.

The Father is different than the Son but relative to "rank, authority, power" and many other things, they are no different.

Then this has become another teaching moment for you.

God is better than Jesus.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

1 Corinthians 11
3...the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15
27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

 

[synergy]

You are all over the place and contradicting yourself at this point. Jesus was created in John 1:14. Here's a tip, if your translation doesn't match the context you need to take another look at the translation. Also, masculine nouns don't automatically mean a he is being referred to. A word is not a person anywhere in the Bible to begin with. It's personification.

You're repeating your Gaffe #2 which is ignorance of the Greek word "ἐσκήνωσεν" in John 1:14. Learn what "ἐσκήνωσεν" means in Greek and why John chose that specific word to describe the Word's appearance as Jesus and then we can talk. Ok?

List of RM's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever have to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".

We're really close to reaching double digits.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then this has become another teaching moment for you.

God is better than Jesus.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

Do you really think I don't know these verses.

While the word "greater" in English often carries the connotation of "better", that isn't always true given the context of the statement. I've said this to you before and we're right back here again. I don't believe you really understand the nuisances of English.

For example, I'll let ChatGPT inform you.

"Greater" and "better" can be closely related, but they don't always mean the same thing. "Greater" often refers to a larger quantity, extent, or degree, while "better" indicates a higher quality or superiority

Please correct the basis of your mistake.

 

[Doug Brents]

No contradiction at all. The Father is the only true God, right? So that rules out the Word being the only true God because the Word is not the Father. Find a different inrepretation for John 1:1. Logos theologians tend to take John 1:1 way too literally and it just contradicts the rest of the Bible.

The Father is God. And Jesus is Lord. Lord and God are

Then it's a failed prophecy in the Trinitarian version. Jesus was never called "Mighty God, Prince of Peace, Everlasting Father" or any of those titles.

No, it is not a "failed prophecy". There is no such thing with God: He does not, and cannot, foretell something that does not come about. He is outside of time, and can see all of time in one glance.

Jesus is the Son who was given, the Son who came from God and was born as a man. Jesus is the mighty God, the Prince of Peace, the Everlasting Father. All of these titles belong to Jesus, not just to the Father.

Here's the LXX of Isaiaih 9:6 from Brenton's Septuagint translation. Do you agree with it?

Isaiaih 9
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called

Up to here, yes I agree with it.

the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

But this portion is not correctly translated. Isaiah is foretelling of a man who will be born who will be the Mighty God. And that is exactly who and what Jesus is.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then this has become another teaching moment for you.

1 Corinthians 11
3...the head of Christ is God.

I've tried to explain this to you before. You, as a son yourself, see things differently based upon your experience.

YOU believe that having a "head" creates a subservient relationship. Even then, you're independent now.... right?

Please confirm that you don't believe your father is "head" of you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

1 Corinthians 15
27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

Once again. Same scenario. Are you subjected to your father?

 

[Runningman]

You're repeating your Gaffe #2 which is ignorance of the Greek word "ἐσκήνωσεν" in John 1:14. Learn what "ἐσκήνωσεν" means in Greek and why John chose that specific word to describe the Word's appearance as Jesus and then we can talk. Ok?

List of RM's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever have to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".

We're really close to reaching double digits.

So this is your one trick pony that you are going to keep pasting despite all of the proof against your claims I have continued to post? If you're stalling, please take more time to respond with thhoughtful answers rather than the same refuted talking points. You may be clever, but you don't have the stamina or courage to step outside of John 1:1 because you are completely and utterly surrounded on that island.

 

[Doug Brents]

So this is your one trick pony that you are going to keep pasting despite all of the proof against your claims I have continued to post? If you're stalling, please take more time to respond with thhoughtful answers rather than the same refuted talking points.

Nothing you have posted "refutes" or in any way disproves that Jesus is God. But keep trying; maybe you can dig deep enough in Hell to reach Heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Do you really think I don't know these verses.

While the word "greater" in English often carries the connotation of "better", that isn't always true given the context of the statement. I've said this to you before and we're right back here again. I don't believe you really understand the nuisances of English.

For example, I'll let ChatGPT inform you.

"Greater" and "better" can be closely related, but they don't always mean the same thing. "Greater" often refers to a larger quantity, extent, or degree, while "better" indicates a higher quality or superiority

Please correct the basis of your mistake.

Your argument seems to be that God is not necessarily greater based on semantics. This informs me you don't know who God is. Your very same argument can be used against you, which doesn't seem to be something you have calculated. The Bible doesn't say Jesus is better than Christians either, but you seem to have no problem understanding that he is. This reveals your bias.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

A question to elicit a response. I do that too. You do it too....

The answer Jesus gave didn't exclude Him from being God.

 

[Runningman]

I've tried to explain this to you before. You, as a son yourself, see things differently based upon your experience.

YOU believe that having a "head" creates a subservient relationship. Even then, you're independent now.... right?

Please confirm that you don't believe your father is "head" of you.

You have just revealed you understand that Jesus is independent of God rather than God Himself. Thank you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your argument seems to be that God is not necessarily greater based on semantics. This informs me you don't know who God is. Your very same argument can be used against you, which doesn't seem to be something you have calculated. The Bible doesn't say Jesus is better than anyone either, but you seem to have no problem understanding that he is. This reveals your bias.

Ah. You're wrong.

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

Did you forget this?