Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

Yes . but then lets examine
this MESSIAH , THIS SAVOIR , THIS COMING KING
BY the very scripture itself .
For a virgin shall conceive and bear a son
and they shall call HIM emmanuel , mighty God , EVERLASTING father .
YES the WORD DID BECOME FLESH .
And the WORD that became flesh , that was with GOD and was GOD
IS THE MESSIAH , IS THE CHRIST , IS the ONE spoken of IN the TORAH and PROPHETS .
And first john actually confirms ISSIAH chapter nine .
You keep trying to DENY THE ALPAHA and OMEGA , the FIRST and the last .
That is deadly and super dangerous .
GOD all MIGHTY IS THE ALPHA and OMEGA and HIS GLORY shall he share with none .
JESUS IS THE GLORY OF GOD . lets not deny HIM shall we .
HE too said I AM alpha and omega , the first and the last .
The angel who spoke to john spoke wisely
when he told john GET UP , i am but your brethren and of those who keep the sayings of this book
WORSHIP GOD .
And yet that angel and all other angles , the multitudes in heaven
the four beasts and twenty and four elders , WORSHIP CHRSIT and cast crowns before HIS FEET .
DIDNT SEE HIM saying HEY GET UP WORSHIP GOD . DID YOU . exactly .
I understand the GODHEAD can be hard to understand
BUT the last thing one wants to do IS DENY . you need to stick to what is written
and just beleive it as a child . EVEN if you do not understand it
SIMPLY believe and in time enough understanding will come .

This is how I see the Alpha and the Omega...

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God.” These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one “who is and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified in the context as God, not Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:4-5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who is, was and is to come” and Jesus Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.

The phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” has caused many people to believe this verse refers to Christ. However, study of the occurrences of the phrase indicates that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies solely to God. Scholars are not completely sure what the phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” means. Lenski concludes “it is fruitless to search Jewish and pagan literature for the source of something that resembles this name Alpha and Omega. Nowhere is a person, to say nothing of a divine Person, called "Alpha and Omega" or in Hebrew, Aleph and Tau.

Although there is no evidence from the historical sources that anyone is named “the Alpha and Omega” Bullinger says that the phrase “is a Hebraism, in common use among the ancient Jewish Commentators to designate the whole of anything from the beginning to the end." That would make the expression the figure of speech polarmerismos, similar to "and there was evening, and there was morning” which stands for the whole day in Genesis 1. The best scholarly minds have concluded that the phrase has something to do with starting and finishing something, or the entirety of something. Norton writes that these words “denote the certain accomplishment of his purposes; that what he has begun he will carry on to its consummation.

 

[Peterlag]

Correct. But Scripture tells us that the Logos became/took on flesh and became a man. And HE dwelt among us and we (the Apostles) beheld His glory.

That is your interpretation because that fits with your preconception of who Jesus is. But that is not what this or any other passage of Scripture says.
The Logos was with God
The Logos was God
The Logos took on flesh as a man
That man is known as Jesus
Jesus is God, and was with God from the beginning.

It is irrelevant that it "did not exist that way before". It existed before, regardless of the form it had before. It was still with God, and it was still God before. Just because some certain steam has always been steam and never was water does not mean that it did not exist before it became water.

Again, you are saying that the oral traditions were not real before they were written down? Many cultures had oral traditions that were passed down from generation to generation before they had writing to preserve the information. You are saying that the knowledge did not really exist when it was purely oral in nature, and it suddenly came into being when it was finally written down?

I did not say anything about "oral traditions."

I said a "spirit-book" the "word" in writing...

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Doug Brents]

I did not say anything about "oral traditions."

I said a "spirit-book" the "word" in writing...

You said the Word came into being when it was written down. But it existed even before it was written down in the oral traditions. It was never a "spirit book".

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

No, it did not "come into being" as God delivered it to people to write down. It came into being in God's mind long before it was written. It was even delivered to people from God long before it was written down. It did not suddenly come into being just because it was finally written down. That was the beginning of its physical presence, not the beginning of the knowledge, wisdom, information, and doctrine contained within.

 

[Peterlag]

You said the Word came into being when it was written down. But it existed even before it was written down in the oral traditions. It was never a "spirit book".

No, it did not "come into being" as God delivered it to people to write down. It came into being in God's mind long before it was written. It was even delivered to people from God long before it was written down. It did not suddenly come into being just because it was finally written down. That was the beginning of its physical presence, not the beginning of the knowledge, wisdom, information, and doctrine contained within.

Where in the sentence below did I say the Word came into being when it was written down?

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Doug Brents]

Where in the sentence below did I say the Word came into being when it was written down?

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

You said it did not preexist it being written down. That is a false statement, because it did preexist being written down. It did have literal preexistence, not as a "spirit book", but as the thoughts, laws, and mind of God.

 

[Peterlag]

You said it did not preexist it being written down. That is a false statement, because it did preexist being written down. It did have literal preexistence, not as a "spirit book", but as the thoughts, laws, and mind of God.

I did not say it had no pre-existence before it was written down. I said it had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book."

Now this is a really big reason why you guys believe in stuff like the trinity that is not there. Because you don't read what is there. You read what you want it to be there. You spin and twist my words just like you do the Bible.

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Peterlag]

I'm curious why the Trinitarian religious leaders think this applies to everyone else but them? Why do the Trinitarian religious leaders believe the doctrine of devils (Ephesians 6:12 and 1 Timothy 4:1-2) applies to everyone who disagrees with them but not them? For too long Trinitarians controlled false Christianity with an iron fist suppressing and oppressing all who would dare challenge and oppose them.

 

[mikesw]

I'm curious why the Trinitarian religious leaders think this applies to everyone else but them? Why do the Trinitarian religious leaders believe the doctrine of devils (Ephesians 6:12 and 1 Timothy 4:1-2) applies to everyone who disagrees with them but not them? For too long Trinitarians controlled false Christianity with an iron fist suppressing and oppressing all who would dare challenge and oppose them.

View attachment 2011

Wow. Now he shares a lack of understanding of prophecy and a misapplication of the passage by applying it to true Christians. Not surprising that Peterlag has continued to demonstrate his errors of interpretation.
This type of comment against Christ is what I cautioned Pancho Frijoles about.

 

[Doug Brents]

I did not say it had no pre-existence before it was written down. I said it had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book."

You are the only one talking about some fictitious "spirit book" (whatever that is).

Now this is a really big reason why you guys believe in stuff like the trinity that is not there. Because you don't read what is there. You read what you want it to be there. You spin and twist my words just like you do the Bible.

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

The Word did not "come into being" when God gave the revelation to people. It always existed because God knew the end from the beginning. He ALWAYS knew, so what He knew always existed. The fact that it was not revealed to man did not cause it to "come into being" when it was finally revealed.

 

[Peterlag]

You are the only one talking about some fictitious "spirit book" (whatever that is).

The Word did not "come into being" when God gave the revelation to people. It always existed because God knew the end from the beginning. He ALWAYS knew, so what He knew always existed. The fact that it was not revealed to man did not cause it to "come into being" when it was finally revealed.

Nobody is talking about when the Word came into being. Only you. I'm talking about the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Peterlag]

The New Testament has eight writers who penned twenty-seven books and many of them were eyewitnesses that personally knew Jesus and were in his presence when he taught.

None of them ever said "Jesus is God."

People today say it as if it's written... but it's not.

The ones who knew Jesus who ate with him and heard his teaching never heard "Jesus is God."

There are forty-two Scripture verses that say Jesus is the "son of God."

There are eighty-eight Scripture verses that say Jesus is the "son of man."

There are two-hundred and fifty-nine Scripture verses that refer to Jesus as the "Christ."

There are zero Scripture verses that say "Jesus is God."

 

[Doug Brents]

Nobody is talking about when the Word came into being. Only you. I'm talking about the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

Pete, if it "came into being" then it didn't exist before. You keep saying it "came into being", but it didn't. It always existed. So it did have a literal preexistence, not in some "spirit book", but in the mind of God. Jesus has always existed as a being there with God during Creation, and He was responsible for the creation of everything that was created.

 

[Peterlag]

Pete, if it "came into being" then it didn't exist before. You keep saying it "came into being", but it didn't. It always existed. So it did have a literal preexistence, not in some "spirit book", but in the mind of God. Jesus has always existed as a being there with God during Creation, and He was responsible for the creation of everything that was created.

The book of Genesis did not exist before Moses wrote it down.

 

[MTMattie]

The book of Genesis did not exist before Moses wrote it down.

Was Moses inspired? YES or NO

 

[Doug Brents]

The book of Genesis did not exist before Moses wrote it down.

Yes, it did. God knew all of what was written. Abraham lived some of what was written. Much of the history was passed down from generation to generation through oral tradition before it was written. It did not spring into being just because it was finally written down. That simply preserved it much more securely (in human terms).

 

[MTMattie]

Yes, it did. God knew all of what was written. Abraham lived some of what was written. Much of the history was passed down from generation to generation through oral tradition before it was written. It did not spring into being just because it was finally written down. That simply preserved it much more securely (in human terms).

Agree.

Another side remark....

But here is a thought I have often wondered about... please people.... no long drag out debates... not on this.

Gen 1 is definitely told much as we would hear our forefathers passing things down... except it was organized in a
seeming chronological way. It stops at day 6. Period.

Gen 2 seems to be an almost condense version of the way Gen 1 was told.

We now have a day 7 and the importance seems less on the creation of things and creatures and more on Adam.

And of course Gen 2:4 KJV states 4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, IOW 24 hour long generations?

If you have a simple answer please tell me why we have 2 accounts of the creation end.... or why Moses, if he wrote both... did not put them together? Almost seems like there were 2 authors, or Moses was simply inspired to complete the story and that is the reason he brought day 7 in here?

Quick answers if there are any cause we need to get back on topic.

 

[DavidTree]

If...​

1.) Jesus is God.​

2.) Holy Spirit is God.​

3.) What's the third one___________​

And don't give me a name or a title and then say I'm blind. Give me the third God.​

Well, by your own admission you are blind.

So how can a spiritually blind man see unless the LORD opens his eyes.............."seeing they see not"

 

[DavidTree]

Agree.

Another side remark....

But here is a thought I have often wondered about... please people.... no long drag out debates... not on this.

Gen 1 is definitely told much as we would hear our forefathers passing things down... except it was organized in a
seeming chronological way. It stops at day 6. Period.

Gen 2 seems to be an almost condense version of the way Gen 1 was told.

We now have a day 7 and the importance seems less on the creation of things and creatures and more on Adam.

And of course Gen 2:4 KJV states 4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, IOW 24 hour long generations?

If you have a simple answer please tell me why we have 2 accounts of the creation end.... or why Moses, if he wrote both... did not put them together? Almost seems like there were 2 authors, or Moses was simply inspired to complete the story and that is the reason he brought day 7 in here?

Quick answers if there are any cause we need to get back on topic.

Simple = because the 7th Day speaks of Christ

 

[Peterlag]

Well, by your own admission you are blind.

So how can a spiritually blind man see unless the LORD opens his eyes.............."seeing they see not"

The reason you can't answer is because God is not made out of three parts. The words "God" or "Father" are not parts. They are names.

If...​

1.) Jesus is God.​

2.) Holy Spirit is God.​

3.) What's the third one___________​

And don't give me a name or a title and then say I'm blind. Give me the third God.​

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Simple = because the 7th Day speaks of Christ

many cannot see that david . they have not entered into HIS REST .
the completed works of CHRIST who finished the works .
As the law , torah , prophets pointed to Christ
a true sabbath REST was coming to the peoples .
ONE that would FREE THEM from what the LAW COULD NOT FREE THEM .
For man falls short . no man , no man can be justified BY the law .
Just as they built a earthen temple after the pattern of the heavenly
GOD WOULD ESTABLISH the TRUE ONE . THE ONE IN HEAVEN, the earthen was patterned after ,
wherein The high priest of men performed their blood sacrfiices
BUT THE HEAVENLY ITSELF with MUCH BETTER sacrfices , THE BLOOD OF JESUS .
Many cannot see david . LET THERE BE LIGHT and there was light
AND NOW GOD HAS SHINED THE LIGHT IN CHRIST unto the world
but many hate that light . THE LIGHT wherein the darkness cannot be .
THE LIGHT has shined upon the hearts of the LAMBS , BY GOD IN JESUS CHRIST .
THE EARTHLY was always patterend after the heavenly
and were for a time TILL THE HEAVENLY itself , that temple WHICH IS GOD and the LAMB .
THE earthern was but for a time TILL THE PROMISE OF THE TRUE WOULD BE ESTABLISHED BY
THE NAME OF JESUS THE CHRIST , HE who the law and prophets PROHESIED OF
OUR KINGDOM is heavenly my friend . the TEMPLE BE GOD AND THE LAMB
HIS LIGHT has shined upon the hearts of the sheep
and they are all the children of the true JERUSALEM which is above
and are connected BY THE SPIRIT . TO the trenches david . AND let us POINT
to HE who once said
COME YE UNTO ME all ye who do labor and are weary and YE shall FIND REST for your souls
being justifed by HIM , by faith , from which no man can be justified by the law .
ITS JESUS TIME in the building my friend . ONE HEAVENLY ISRAEL OF GOD
WITH HIS JERUSALEM , HIS MOUNT ZION , HIS TEMPLE which is GOD and CHRIST .and the sheep are tiny stones
WHERE all who have entered by faith in CHRIST , whether jew or gentile
ARE NOW ONE PEOPLE . THE PEOPLE OF GOD ALL MIGHTY and of THE LAMB . that be THE ONLY
SONG this sheep gonna sing to all .