Thomas... My Lord and my God

[FreeInChrist]

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Amen, and amen

 

[amazing grace]

If you agree that He created through his word. Then now you know why God said "Let US'. The Word was there.

God plus Word = US.

God created by speaking WORDS --- Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light". 1:6,7 And God said, "Let there be an expanse.....And it was so. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together.....And it was so. etc., etc. By the time the discussion of creating man in v26 - the heavens and earth and all the host of them, the separation of land and water, the plants and vegetation created, the fish, birds all the animals - there is NO plurality. - elohim - singular or plural usage? Dependent upon verb tense - created is singular verb tense therefore elohim is singular. Not plural so not 3 persons God singularly created:
Thus says the LORD........I made the earth and created man on it; it was MY hands that stretched out the heavens and I commanded all their host; .......For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (HE is God!), who formed the earth and made it
(HE established it, HE did not create it empty , he formed it to be inhabited!), I am the LORD, and there is no other......I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. [Isaiah 45:11a,12,18,19b]

When you speak your words - Do you consider your words and you an US?

So now that we understand that....

If God is commonly called the Father, and Jesus is commonly called the Son... for what reason do you think the Word (Logos) was called that and not something like Like or even Cup?

Yes, God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. My thoughts on why logos was used in John 1:1 is because God's word did the creating in the beginning.

God is a Father. Jesus is a Son Why do you suppose the one with God the Father in the beginning of creation would be called the Word when HE WAS NOT the one saying anything according to you.

The question would be - What would the original readers have understood with this verse? We have to remember that this was written to people who had NO IDEA OF AN ESTABLISHED DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. They only had what was known through the OT scripture and scripture clearly depicts that a singular person identified as either the LORD, the LORD God, or God created.

<snip>​

Old Testament and Jewish Roots​

John's primary foundation is Jewish Scripture (in Greek translation, the Septuagint):

• God's creative "word" in Genesis 1 ("And God said, 'Let there be light'") brings the universe into existence.
• Phrases like "the word of the Lord" in prophets (e.g., Jeremiah, Isaiah) convey God's revelation, power, and will.
• Personified Wisdom in Proverbs 8 and Wisdom of Solomon (a Jewish text from ~1st century BCE) is pre-existent, involved in creation, and a divine agent—parallels that early Christians applied to Jesus.
• In Aramaic Targums (Jewish interpretive translations), "Memra" (Word) sometimes substitutes for God in anthropomorphic passages, emphasizing God's active presence.

John echoes Genesis 1:1 exactly ("In the beginning...") to link the Logos to God's creative act. I'll walk through this in a structured way so you can use it in discussion or debate if you wish.

Agreed. I'm not sure exactly how they are defining Personified Wisdom and the Wisdom of Solomon above but I do not believe that Personified Wisdom nor the Wisdom of Solomon 'preexisted' as literal beings but that God's wisdom is being personified as Lady Wisdom, a female figure.

1.The Jewish background: God creates by His Word​

For a Jewish reader, “Word” was already a creation category.

• Genesis 1: Creation happens by speech
• Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
• Isaiah 55:11
  God’s word goes out, acts, and accomplishes His will
• Aramaic Targums (paraphrases used in synagogues) often say: “The Memra (Word) of the LORD created…”

So within Judaism, God’s Word was:

• from God
• distinct in action
• yet fully God’s own self-expression

John is not inventing a new idea—he is identifying it.

Agreed, creation happened by speech. Agreed, God's word is from God and is fully God's own self expression.

2. Logos in Greek thought (but redefined by John)

In Greek philosophy, logos meant:

• rational principle
• ordering reason of the cosmos
• the intelligible structure behind reality

Philo of Alexandria (a Jewish philosopher, 1st century) already used Logos to describe:

• God’s agent in creation
• God’s self-expression
• the mediator between God and the world

Agreed that the logos, God's word is the reason behind our ordered universe; the intelligible structure behind reality.
Agreed that the logos is God's self-expression.
God's word spoken to the prophets in the OT - the prophets took that spoken word AS GOD'S AGENTS.

But John does something radical:

Greeks did not believe the logos could be personal, nor could it become flesh.

John uses a familiar term—but fills it with Hebrew monotheism and then goes further.

But the Greeks did believe that men came to earth as 'gods' as we see in Acts 14:11-13 which made it's way into the formation of Orthodox Christianity.

3. Why not just say “Wisdom” or “Spirit”?

Good question—and the fact John doesn’t use those terms is important.

• Wisdom (Sophia)in Proverbs 8 is poetic and personified, but not fully personal
  • Spirit in Genesis 1:2 is active, but not portrayed as a speaking agent

I believe that one could say that the descriptions in Proverbs 31 of the wife ---- she embodying the qualities of Lady Wisdom
An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels parallels with Lady Wisdom - Blessed is the one who finds wisdom,......She is more precious than jewels [Proverbs 3:13a,15a], etc.

<snip>

4. John’s theological purpose: identifying Jesus with the Creator​

John tells us his goal later: “These things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31)

So when John writes: “All things were made through him, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3) He is deliberately:

• anchoring Jesus in Genesis 1
• identifying Him as the agent of creation
• while maintaining Jewish monotheism
  Calling Jesus “Logos” allows John to say:
  • Jesus is not a second god
  • yet Jesus is not a creature
  • He is God’s own self-expression acting in creation and redemption

Using 'HIM' is John's way of personifying logos just as using 'SHE' is personifying Wisdom in the Book of Proverbs which the early Christians would have understood being familiar with OT scripture.
logos could just as easily been referred to as 'it' -- autos is the Greek word meaning himself, herself, themselves, itself; 2. he, she, it; 3. the same so logos could just as easily been referred to as 'it' but since it is a masculine noun grammatically the pronoun would be 'him'.

5. Why “Word” matters for incarnation​

A word:

• comes from the speaker
• reveals the speaker
• shares the speaker’s nature
• yet is distinguishable

That sets up John 1:14 perfectly: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”

John is saying:
The same divine self-expression by which God created the world has now entered the world as a human life.

No other term does this as cleanly.

.....and the word was God - the word was the full self expression of God by which he created the world ---- that word, the full self expression of God has become flesh in the only Son from the Father. Amen.

6. What we can and cannot say with certainty​

We can say with confidence:

• John chose “Logos” deliberately
• it draws from Genesis, Psalms, Targums, and Jewish wisdom theology
• it engages Greek thought without surrendering monotheism
• it serves John’s aim of identifying Jesus with creation and revelation

We cannot say:

• that John was writing systematic Trinitarian formulas (those came later)
• that Logos automatically equals later Nicene language in John’s mind

But we can say John is laying the raw material that later theology formalized.

3 different Ais.... we know they are separate. God (the Father ) and the Logos/Word.

VERY CORRECT in saying "what we cannot say is that John was writing systematic Trinitarian forumulas". . . . .
AND if that was NOT John's intent then WHY DO PEOPLE READ THAT INTO THE CONTENT OF JOHN 1???
I hope we do not have another long post like this presented ----- it could have easily been broken up.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God created by speaking WORDS --- Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light". 1:6,7 And God said, "Let there be an expanse.....And it was so. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together.....And it was so. etc., etc. By the time the discussion of creating man in v26 - the heavens and earth and all the host of them, the separation of land and water, the plants and vegetation created, the fish, birds all the animals - there is NO plurality. - elohim - singular or plural usage? Dependent upon verb tense - created is singular verb tense therefore elohim is singular. Not plural so not 3 persons God singularly created:
Thus says the LORD........I made the earth and created man on it; it was MY hands that stretched out the heavens and I commanded all their host; .......For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (HE is God!), who formed the earth and made it
(HE established it, HE did not create it empty , he formed it to be inhabited!), I am the LORD, and there is no other......I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. [Isaiah 45:11a,12,18,19b]

When you speak your words - Do you consider your words and you an US?

BUT answer this, please.

If God created by speaking words???????????

Then how did the "Word" he spoke become flesh?

 

[TomL]

Amen, and amen

It destroys the Unitarians' claim the word was an "it."

 

[TomL]

It does not say Jesus is the logos in Revelation 19:13. It says his name is called logos, which makes sense since "it" the logos became flesh.

Wake up

It states his name is the word of God

 

[civic]

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Exactly- the Son with the Father before creation.

 

[amazing grace]

BUT answer this, please.

If God created by speaking words???????????

Then how did the "Word" he spoke become flesh?

The Word was God - God's creative speech, the Word was the full expression of God - the Word was how God expressed himself.
That full expression of God, i.e. the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
HOW? Luke 1:35 And the Angel answered her, the holy spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy----the Son of God.

 

[civic]

God created by speaking WORDS --- Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light". 1:6,7 And God said, "Let there be an expanse.....And it was so. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together.....And it was so. etc., etc. By the time the discussion of creating man in v26 - the heavens and earth and all the host of them, the separation of land and water, the plants and vegetation created, the fish, birds all the animals - there is NO plurality. - elohim - singular or plural usage? Dependent upon verb tense - created is singular verb tense therefore elohim is singular. Not plural so not 3 persons God singularly created:
Thus says the LORD........I made the earth and created man on it; it was MY hands that stretched out the heavens and I commanded all their host; .......For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (HE is God!), who formed the earth and made it
(HE established it, HE did not create it empty , he formed it to be inhabited!), I am the LORD, and there is no other......I the LORD speak the truth; I declare what is right. [Isaiah 45:11a,12,18,19b]

When you speak your words - Do you consider your words and you an US?

Yes, God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. My thoughts on why logos was used in John 1:1 is because God's word did the creating in the beginning.

The question would be - What would the original readers have understood with this verse? We have to remember that this was written to people who had NO IDEA OF AN ESTABLISHED DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. They only had what was known through the OT scripture and scripture clearly depicts that a singular person identified as either the LORD, the LORD God, or God created.

Agreed. I'm not sure exactly how they are defining Personified Wisdom and the Wisdom of Solomon above but I do not believe that Personified Wisdom nor the Wisdom of Solomon 'preexisted' as literal beings but that God's wisdom is being personified as Lady Wisdom, a female figure.

Agreed, creation happened by speech. Agreed, God's word is from God and is fully God's own self expression.

Agreed that the logos, God's word is the reason behind our ordered universe; the intelligible structure behind reality.
Agreed that the logos is God's self-expression.
God's word spoken to the prophets in the OT - the prophets took that spoken word AS GOD'S AGENTS.

But the Greeks did believe that men came to earth as 'gods' as we see in Acts 14:11-13 which made it's way into the formation of Orthodox Christianity.

I believe that one could say that the descriptions in Proverbs 31 of the wife ---- she embodying the qualities of Lady Wisdom
An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels parallels with Lady Wisdom - Blessed is the one who finds wisdom,......She is more precious than jewels [Proverbs 3:13a,15a], etc.

Using 'HIM' is John's way of personifying logos just as using 'SHE' is personifying Wisdom in the Book of Proverbs which the early Christians would have understood being familiar with OT scripture.
logos could just as easily been referred to as 'it' -- autos is the Greek word meaning himself, herself, themselves, itself; 2. he, she, it; 3. the same so logos could just as easily been referred to as 'it' but since it is a masculine noun grammatically the pronoun would be 'him'.

.....and the word was God - the word was the full self expression of God by which he created the world ---- that word, the full self expression of God has become flesh in the only Son from the Father. Amen.

VERY CORRECT in saying "what we cannot say is that John was writing systematic Trinitarian forumulas". . . . .
AND if that was NOT John's intent then WHY DO PEOPLE READ THAT INTO THE CONTENT OF JOHN 1???
I hope we do not have another long post like this presented ----- it could have easily been broken up.

My words are not me as I'm a living soul that is unseen.
My words express my thoughts but they are not me.

next fallacy

 

[mikesw]

It does not say Jesus is the logos in Revelation 19:13. It says his name is called logos, which makes sense since "it" the logos became flesh.

Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

the wording seems to be his name he is named is the Word of God

I think peterlag has tried this as a nickname that does not really identify a person -- like saying about Mike -- he is Mike but we call him Bud. It is just that peterlag has tried to disassociate Jesus from who he is, even though I cannot make logical sense of the way peterlag thinks that can happen here.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Word was God - God's creative speech, the Word was the full expression of God - the Word was how God expressed himself.
That full expression of God, i.e. the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
HOW? Luke 1:35 And the Angel answered her, the holy spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy----the Son of God.

That make zero sense as there would not have needed to me the mechanism in place for the Word to become Human is it was the fact the Word was only speech.

When creation was done and it was "said"

The First Day 3And God said

The Second Day 6And God said

The Third Day 9And God said

And

The Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Day 24And God said,

He had no need of another to get all done that was done.

Enter gen 2
7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust

8. And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, (Take note of this..... God planted the Garden after he made man... here)

So....all through chapter 2 the Lord God made aand did by Himself, without help......

WHY IN THE WORD WHEN IT CAME time to put a baby in Mary did He suddenly need the Holy Spirit.

If the Word was God's creative Speech, was he unable to speak it into happening without help?

My goodness, the Hily father took a rib from Adam by Hisself, He made a woman from Adam by Hisself but I guess maybe 6000 plus years later help was needed... Like maybe He spoke the Word, and the Holy Spirit got that Word into Mary because just
speaking to do this was not enough?

What say you... Any better idea?

 

[TomL]

God created by speaking WORDS --- Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light". 1:6,7 And God said, "Let there be an expanse.....And it was so. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together.....And it was so. etc., etc. By the time the discussion of creating man in v26 - the heavens and earth and all the host of them, the separation of land and water, the plants and vegetation created, the fish, birds all the animals - there is NO plurality. - elohim - singular or plural usage? Dependent upon verb tense - created is singular verb tense therefore elohim is singular. Not plural so not 3 persons God singularly created:

Genesis 1:26 (NASB 95) — 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

 

[TomL]

the wording seems to be his name he is named is the Word of God

I think peterlag has tried this as a nickname that does not really identify a person -- like saying about Mike -- he is Mike but we call him Bud. It is just that peterlag has tried to disassociate Jesus from who he is, even though I cannot make logical sense of the way peterlag thinks that can happen here.

Yep. He

 

[TomL]

Exactly- the Son with the Father before creation.

It would be a shame to make the glory of God equal to the glory of some non personal thing.

 

[amazing grace]

My words are not me as I'm a living soul that is unseen.
My words express my thoughts but they are not me.

next fallacy

I have no idea what you are referencing here.
My words are me in that they reflect my character and express my thoughts.

 

[amazing grace]

That make zero sense as there would not have needed to me the mechanism in place for the Word to become Human is it was the fact the Word was only speech.

When creation was done and it was "said"

The First Day 3And God said

The Second Day 6And God said

The Third Day 9And God said

And

The Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Day 24And God said,

He had no need of another to get all done that was done.
Enter gen 2
7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust

8. And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, (Take note of this..... God planted the Garden after he made man... here)

So....all through chapter 2 the Lord God made aand did by Himself, without help......

WHY IN THE WORD WHEN IT CAME time to put a baby in Mary did He suddenly need the Holy Spirit.

If the Word was God's creative Speech, was he unable to speak it into happening without help?

My goodness, the Hily father took a rib from Adam by Hisself, He made a woman from Adam by Hisself but I guess maybe 6000 plus years later help was needed... Like maybe He spoke the Word, and the Holy Spirit got that Word into Mary because just
speaking to do this was not enough?

What say you... Any better idea?

I actually have no idea what you are ranting about. I did not say that the word was 'every single word of creation' You are taking what I said and just being totally ridiculous with it.

Did you even read thoroughly your own post regarding what AI had to say? I took the time to respond to that ridiculously long post and now you act as though you have NO idea what it said or what I am saying!!!!! Even within that ridiculously long post that I took the time to respond to - AI quoted places where it said "that the word fully expressed God" . . . which I agreed to and which I have said all along in this thread.

The Word was God - God's creative speech, the Word was the full expression of God - the Word was how God expressed himself..... that word that was the full expression of God, i.e. that word that fully expresses God --- became flesh. Luke 1:35 tells how. Was the holy spirit an extra person called in to help? READ the verse - Luke describes the holy spirit as the power of God.

Now, if you really take the time to read this you will get this far ----- and if you really want to discuss and take apart that long post together with my responses singly address those - okay but when someone just starts ranting and making no sense - I can't.

 

[amazing grace]

Genesis 1:26 (NASB 95) — 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Yes, I am fully aware of what Genesis 1:26 says.

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:4-7

 

[civic]

I have no idea what you are referencing here.
My words are me in that they reflect my character and express my thoughts.

no you are not a word or your words- you are a living soul.

 

[synergy]

The Word was God

Yes! Not speech or any other heretical view. Keep that thought - don't deviate from it in any way shape or form.

God's creative speech, the Word was the full expression of God - the Word was how God expressed himself.
That full expression of God, i.e. the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
HOW? Luke 1:35 And the Angel answered her, the holy spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy----the Son of God.

Thanks for those Trinitarian verses that you're quoting. The first set explain the moment when the Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus on Earth. The 2nd set describes a truly amazing manifestation of the Trinity that any sincere person could and would recognize as being so.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[civic]

It would be a shame to make the glory of God equal to the glory of some non personal thing.

or a man who is not God.

 

[civic]

Yes! Not speech or any other heretical view. Keep that thought - don't deviate from it in any way shape or form.

Thanks for those Trinitarian verses that you're quoting. The first set explain the moment when the Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus on Earth. The 2nd set describes a truly amazing manifestation of the Trinity that any sincere person could and would recognize as being so.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Amen to the Personal Word who was God and with the Father ( who is God ) before creation and who created all things that came into existence and shared the same GLORY together with the Father before anything existed.

And all of Gods children said with confidence and affirmation of the Truth, the True One, Our True God and Eternal Life- Jesus Christ.- AMEN !!!