Peterlag
Active Member
Holy Smokes you believe in hell too? Are you Catholic? Cause if you are we are done with our conversation.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Doug Brents
Active Member
Nope, not catholic. But Scripture is very clear that there is a "lake of fire", a place of eternal torment and punishment, where Satan, his angels, and all those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will spend eternity. Call it Hell, call it whatever you like; it is very clear that it is a real (spiritual to be sure) place.
But I find it interesting that when you can't counter the truth in posts, you pick something in them way off topic on which to focus in order to take the conversation in a new direction.
Peterlag
Active Member
I do the same as you when I pick what to comment on and I'm still here but done with what we were talking about since I can't see us agreeing. You have very different views than I do. The word you often use is "clear" when you say the Scriptures are clear and then you post something that is not even mentioned in the Bible much less clear. Like "hell" where you confuse it with the "lake of fire" and then say it's clear. Like the trinity that's not taught anywhere and you say it's clear.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You have one thing right: I am never going to agree with you when you disagree with Scripture.
Yes, many things in Scripture are very clear. The fact that you have different thoughts, and then try to support them with twisted Scripture, doesn't change the truth in Scripture.
The lake of fire is hell. No, hell is not a word used in Scripture, but that is the commonly used word denoting the place of eternal punishment that is referred to in Revelation and other places in Scripture.
As has been demonstrated to you many times, the existence of the three persons of God is evident all through the NT. The fact that you hide from that truth, refusing to read/accept the passages which demonstrate that God is three parts, doesn't change that truth.
You come to the Scripture with a preconceived idea, and then you look for proof statements to support that idea. The right way to approach Scripture is to let it inform your ideas, and form your doctrine from what it says. Until your doctrine is in agreement with ALL of Scripture, you have a flawed doctrine.
Peterlag
Active Member
Here's the bottom line...
I never cared for the Catholic doctrine or the philosophy of its protestant sisters.
I cannot find one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. Trinitarians piece together statements that are scattered all over the Bible. They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking. This is why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
Ah. You have cared for the heretical teachings and seek to promote those. That is quite an odd resistance to teachings that have been clear even in the 2nd century teachings -- and even to the Two Powers of Heaven debated among Jews by the first century. I wonder where you connect your beliefs into the history of Christianity.
Runningman
Active Member
Let me introduce you to the Bible. It defines that one and only God as the Father. It's clear, explicit, and you deny it to your own judgement.
1 Cor. 8
4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
Peterlag
Active Member
I never saw a trinity person answer my one little itty bitty question.
Not one out of all the debates I have seen on so many sites over the years. At best they say God did not have to tell us that. The question:
Where in the Bible does it say we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...
Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.
The Epistles would have writings like...
Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.
And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
Not one out of all the debates I have seen on so many sites over the years. At best they say God did not have to tell us that. The question:
Where in the Bible does it say we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...
Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.
The Epistles would have writings like...
Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.
And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
I guess you would have to ask God in heaven, but you might not ever get there.
Peterlag
Active Member
Somebody needs to make me a poster that says...
- I can of mine own self do nothing (John 5:30).
- My Father is greater than I (John 14:28).
- Not my will, but thine, be done (Luke 22:42).
- There is but one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6).
- I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God (John 20:17).
- There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).
Runningman
Active Member
You should give that Scripture to Trinitarians at church because they love the Bible, right? Don't mind the scowls and snears.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Then you haven't been reading the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
See above.
Why does "a teaching" require a whole paragraph or chapter?
This is because Jesus had not yet come to Earth as a separate manifestation of God, nor had the Holy Spirit demonstrated His separateness.
Again, see you lack above.
Indeed, the demonstration of Jesus' divinity is spread all throughout the Bible.
Human reasoning results in your nonsense. It is God's reasoning that leads to the understanding that Jesus is God in the flesh. Yes, there are clues, hints, and obvious, open statements that tell us that Jesus is God.
John 1:1-3, 14. It does not get any more obvious, clear, or in your face that Jesus is God, is the creator of everything that is, is eternal, and left Heaven to become a man.
Peterlag
Active Member
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered allover the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...
Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.
The Epistles would have writings like...
Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.
And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
John 1:3 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
“Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).
Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?
The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
Doug Brents
Active Member
He did, but you refuse to see it.
Why did Jesus teach exclusively through parables? So that those you have eyes to see can see, and those who have ears to hear can hear, and those who do not have either can't do either.
Jesus said, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Who is the "I AM"? The God who spoke to Moses through the burning bush. Will you now dispute that it was God speaking to Moses through the bush?
John 1:14
Phil 2:9-11
How blind you are.
You keep claiming that, but you miss the fact that the Logos became a man (John 1:14). Changing from Spirit to man did not change the fact that the Logos was God.
Correct. But again, that does not change the fact that the Logos was God, and was with God, and left Heaven to become a man that we know as Jesus the Christ. So the Logos (being God so He cannot change) has always been a "He".
No, but then Scripture does not say that the wisdom of God came down and took on the form of a man, but the Logos of God did.
Certainly they are, until Scripture says that the Logos became a man. Now, suddenly, we must change from a metaphorical understanding to an actual understanding. The Logos that was with God, and was God, became a man that was still God.
Peterlag
Active Member
Parables were for Israel because they did not have spirit and so they could not understand spiritual things. The fact that you don't know that blows my mind.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.”
The logos is an “it” not a “him.”
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).
Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?
The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
The logos is an “it” not a “him.”
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).
Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?
The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
Peterlag will not see this.
Funny how Peterlag fails to explain how Jesus claims both his pre-existence and divinity when he says, "before Abraham was, I AM."
The parables in part were shared so those of the Jews who did not come to Christ would be prevented from circumventing the judgment and kingdom coming in the first century. Matthew 13 parables avoided sharing with the Jewish unbelievers how the kingdom of God would operate. Other parables were only apparent as Christians understood who Christ is --like the vineyard owner sending his only Son. Also, the true Israel from among the Jews did receive the Holy Spirit to understand things -- but many parables have also remained unclear to people these last 2000 years.
oh my. Peterlag should be translating the scriptures since he is the ultimate expert in all things. It would be interesting to see how a hyper-literalist translates other passages too.
The purpose of parables in the Bible is to convey profound spiritual truths and moral lessons through simple, illustrative stories. They serve to reveal the secrets of the kingdom of God to those with faith while concealing them from others who lack understanding. Parables are effective teaching tools because they are easily remembered and rich in meaning, allowing listeners to grasp complex divine truths. Ultimately, they illustrate the nature of God's kingdom and the principles of His teachings.
How many times and in how many threads are you going to post the exact same post?
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