Doug Brents
Well-known member
All three.
Faith is not just a work of the heart. Faith does have a heart component, but it also demands physical action or it is not real. And only real faith can save.
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
First once again you ignore
Acts 1:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Second, you assume Christ gave them more than a temporary filling of the Holy Spirit.
The promise of the indwelling spirit was dependent on the glorification of Christ
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
which had not yet happened in john 20:22
Third you ignore the fact more than the apostles were baptized en the spirit on the day of Pebntecost
Forth we still have your confession the baptism en the Holy ghost is saving
And as a result, you have to affirm men were saved on the day of Pentecost
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, I don't ignore that. I understand that neither the baptism of John nor the baptism of the Holy Spirit were salvation events. But NT Baptism in water is a salvation event.
Yes, it had. Jesus was glorified in His death and resurrection. John 13:31-33 says that Jesus was glorified even before His death, and John 20:22 happened a good time after John 13.
I did not ignore that fact. But there is nothing to suggest that it was just the Apostles to whom Jesus gave the Holy Spirit on, or after, John 20:22. As has been pointed out before, Thomas was not with the rest of the Apostles in John 20:22, but it is equally clear that he received everything that he rest of the Apostles received, and it can be extrapolated that the other disciples received much of the same blessings.
Baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is saving (the indwelling of the Spirit), but baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is not what happened on Pentecost or at Cornelius' house. Those events were the empowerment of the Spirit, and had nothing to do with salvation.
The 5000 men were saved on Pentecost. But the 120 were already saved before Pentecost.
Now you contradict yourself.
You originally claimed the Baptism en the spirit was saving.
Agreeing with what I have argued regarding
1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB95) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Having been refuted on your initial stand you now flip flop.
That does not speak well of your position
Will you now also claim the gift of the holy Spirit is not a saving event
Acts 2:38 (NASB95) — 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
the same thing the gentiles received
Acts 10:44–46 (NASB95) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
will you just flip flop on another position because you are not willing to accept what scripture states?
Are you contradicting yourself yet again?
Jesus stated the baptism en the holy ghost would happen a few days from now
Acts 1:4–5 (NASB95) — 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
It did happen on the day of Pentecost as Jesus stated it would
It was accompanied by tongues
comparing with the gentiles experience which we find to be
Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
They were baptized en the Spirit
and
Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
they spoke in tongues
so the gentiles were, in fact, baptized en the spirit and spoke in tongues
a repeat of what had happened to the Jews previously
Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
So what happened on Pentecost was precisely what Jesus stated it would be
a baptism en the Holy Ghost and thus a saving event according to your current affirmation highlighted and bolded above
Um there were not 120 apostles
Doug Brents
Well-known member
This is the baptism "en" the Holy Spirit, but this is not the same as what happened on Pentecost and in Cornelius' house. This verse is talking about the indwelling of the Spirit which is a result of being saved.
I have not changed my stance at all.
These are not the same. Acts 2:38 is talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit that is the result of salvation (the indwelling of the Spirit) and it includes the miraculous gifts of the Spirit as well. But Acts 1044-46 is talking about miraculous gifts (praise and speaking in tongues) which the Jewish disciples with Peter were able to see (physical gifting of the Spirit, not the invisible indwelling of the Spirit).
This was not a salvation event. It had nothing to do with the indwelling of the Spirit.
You still have not defined your term. Does your reference to "baptism "en" the Holy Spirit" (as you use it) refer to the indwelling, or miraculous empowerment, or both?
Acts 2:4, 10:45-46, and 11:15 refer to miraculous empowerment, not salvation.
They spoke in tongues, that is not disputed. But that does not have anything to do with salvation. That is a miraculous gift that even a donkey received.
Nope, not a salvation event.
Never said there were. I said the Apostles and the rest of the 120 disciples that were with them.
Sorry you are simply denying scripture and ignoring the evidence.
Jesus stated the baptism en the holy Ghost would happen a few days from now
Acts 1:4–5 (NASB95) — 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
It did happen on the day of Pentecost as Jesus stated it would
It was accompanied by tongues
comparing with the gentiles experience which we find to be
Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
They were baptized en the Spirit
You have ignored Peter here
and
Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Again You ignored the fact Peter indicates they were baptized in the Spirit and the circumcision noted they spoke in tongues
So as at the day of Pentecost we have the baptism en the spirit as predicted by jesus and confirmed by the gentiles experience by Paul and the Jews
You have affirmed the baptism en the Spirit is saving.
Thus, the gentiles were saved before water baptism, and you simply ignore the facts and repeat your theology
As shown all you are doing is offering bald denials while ignoring the evidence presented
Well, lets see
You stated
Post 1063
and
Same Post 1063
Certainly looks like a flip flop to me.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
That baptism was not a salvation event. That is NOT baptism "en" the Spirit.
Which is not evidence of salvation.
So are you defining your term "baptism "en" the Spirit" as meaning miraculous empowerment? If that is what it means then yes, this is it. But since you claim that "baptism "en" the Spirit" means salvation then this was not it.
I do not ignore that the Gentiles received miraculous empowerment from the Spirit when He fell on them. Yes, they received the Spirit. But they were not saved by that. They were saved, as Jesus said everyone must be, through both the Spirit and water which happened shortly after the Spirit fell on them in power.
Sorry but that is contrary to the words of Jesus
Jesus stated the baptism en the holy Ghost would happen a few days from now
Acts 1:4–5 (NASB95) — 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with (en) the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
The word translated "with" in the key phrase
but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
is en in the Greek
Jesus was clearly speaking of a baptism en the Holy Spirit
That is your first error here
Um we have your confession that the baptism en the spirit is saving
and seeing as Jesus was promising a baptism en the Holy Spirit in a few days from now
we have your second error.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
DEFINE YOUR TERM!!!!
Is "baptism "en" the Holy Spirit" salvation (the way you use it), or is it miraculous empowerment? Or do you think it is both?
Acts 1:4-5 tells of the coming of the Holy Spirit in power (miraculous empowerment), not a salvation event, because the ones to whom He was promising the Spirit already had the indwelling of the Spirit (they were already saved).
The way I have been using the term, yes, baptism "en" the Holy Spirit means the indwelling of the Spirit. But I could be in error as to the meaning of the term (especially about the way you are using it, because you refuse to define it).
Absolutely not
You are reading your thoughts into my words I stated
comparing with the gentiles experience which we find to be
Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
They were baptized en the Spirit
and they spoke in tongues as we see on the day of pentecost
Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.
having received the same experience as had the Jews
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning.
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
same experience which was prophesied by Christ as a baptism en the Holy spirit
You have affirmed that baptism as saving
causing me to conclude previously that
So how can you imagine I believe the baptism en the Holy Spirit is just some empowerment imparting a spiritual gift
According to scripture
They received the Spirit (Acts 10:47)
we see the reception of the spirit spoken of here
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
where it refers to the indwelling
they received the gift of the holy Spirit (Acts 10:45)
we that phrase here
Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
where they receive the gift of the Holy in a verse you state is saving
both verses are an indication of salvation having been obtained
this is your third error
How many times must I state it.
I have argued that is a salvation event and that it is more than just empowerment. Obviously speaking in tongues is an empowerrment
Acts 1:5 speaks of a baptism en the Spirit
this is a fact you are now ignoring
You have affirmed the baptism en the Spirit is a saving event
You cannot logically deny the fulfillment of it is a saving event
To that end I showed that the gentiles experienced that event and thus were saved
You need to deal with the fact scripture shows they were baptised en the spirit
and how you can consistently deny the gentiles were saved before water baptism having been baptised en the spierit
False statement - read
How many times have I noted it involves the reception of the spirit?
That the gentiles and the Jews received the holy Spirit in their baptism en the spirit
and have i not quoted as a reference to receiving the Spirit
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
which involves the indwelling of the Spirit
You need to carefully read and think before making such statements as above
dwight92070
Well-known member
It's just the opposite. Biblical faith DEMANDS NO PHYSICAL ACTION but only an action of the heart called "believing in Him who justifies the ungodly". Please identify the physical action here.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Please identify the physical action here.
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Please identify the physical action here.
You might say that seeking Him is a physical action. No, it is not, because we seek Him with our hearts. Peter spoke of God, who knows the heart. Acts 15:8
If you add anything to the Biblical definition of faith, you are perverting it. If you subtract anything from the Biblical definition of faith, you are perverting it - when you call it mere mental assent, you are perverting it. There's no Biblical term called "real faith". We either have faith or we don't. Biblically, our faith is in Christ Jesus and in God and in His word.
When James says that faith without works is dead, he is saying that we really don't have faith.
Our faith is credited to us as righteousness. But how then is it credited? While we do good works or while we do no good works? Not while we do good works, but while we do no good works. But good works are a sign of the righteousness of the faith that we had, while we were doing no good works.
(Romans 4:10-12)
So we see that Paul's message in Romans 4:5 is the same as his message in Romans 4:10-15. What is that message? We're not justified by doing good stuff, including water baptism and confession of Jesus as our Lord - rather, we do good stuff because we have already been justified by the righteousness of the faith that we had, when we did no good stuff.
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Johann
Well-known member
Brother, I appreciate your emphasis on the inward aspect of faith—πιστεύειν ("to believe") is indeed fundamentally a matter of the heart. However, your assertion that biblical faith “demands no physical action” actually stands at odds with both the lexical range of key Greek terms and the contextual usage throughout Scripture. Let’s walk through this carefully.
First, let’s take Hebrews 11:1 — ἔστιν δὲ πίστις ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων — "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Indeed, this verse describes the nature of faith, but to argue from this that faith is purely non-physical is a category error. Hebrews 11 is not merely defining faith—it illustrates it through the physical obedience of the patriarchs. Consider v.7: Πίστει Νῶε... κατεσκεύασεν κιβωτόν — “By faith Noah… prepared an ark.” This is not mere inward assent. His faith manifested in decisive, obedient action.
The author of Hebrews repeatedly introduces his examples with “By faith…” (πίστει) followed by a verbal clause of action:
Abraham left (ἐξῆλθεν, v.8), Moses refused (ἠρνήσατο, v.24), the Israelites passed through the Red Sea (διέβησαν, v.29). All of these actions are performed “by faith.” So, while the origin of faith is inward, it is never left without physical manifestation. This aligns with the ancient Jewish concept that true trust in God includes action (cf. Gen. 22:12).
Now regarding Romans 4:5 — τῷ δὲ μὴ ἐργαζομένῳ, πιστεύοντι δὲ ἐπὶ τὸν δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἀσεβῆ, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly…” — Paul is emphasizing that justification is not by works of the Law (cf. Galatians 2:16), . but nowhere does he deny that genuine faith issues in action--Paul’s letters are full of commands (imperatives) to obey, submit, present one's members to God, etc. (cf. Romans 6:13, 16; 12:1).
In fact, Paul himself speaks of the “obedience of faith” — ὑπακοὴν πίστεως (Romans 1:5, 16:26). This is not merely mental assent but trust issuing in surrender. The syntax here (ὑπακοή + genitive of source) suggests a faith that produces obedience.
Similarly, James 2:26 says, πίστις χωρὶς ἔργων νεκρά ἐστιν — ""faith without works is dead." James even uses the Abraham example (same as Paul!) to say his faith was “perfected” (ἐτελειώθη) by what he did.
As for your reference to Acts 15:8, yes, God knows the heart — but He also tests it through actions. Remember 1 Samuel 16:7 — “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” But in the Hebrew worldview, the heart is not merely thought or emotion — it is the center of will and action (לבב includes intention and volition).
You mentioned Hebrews 11:6: προσερχόμενον τῷ θεῷ — “the one coming to God.” This verb, προσερχομαι, in its Koine usage often refers to volitional approach, often with physical connotation (cf. Heb. 10:1, 10:22).
It cannot be neatly split into “heart-only” categories. The participle here is in the present middle (προσερχόμενον), indicating continuous approach-suggestive of relationship, not mere cognition.
Shalom.
J.
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
johann i thought you had departed this earth . I had not seen you around in a long while . TO THE TRENCHES .
Johann
Well-known member
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
Well-known member
Have you noticed something .
Let me say what it is and i want to see if you have also seen this .
SOMETHING very dark and wicked has come and it portrays itself as love , as loving and as GOD .
And many within even christendom now follow its version of what they all believe is loving , tolerant
love and of GOD . and the other false religoins are increasing as well .
THEY MERGING .
i have noticed it seems that those within christendom , whose hearts were not truly for CHRIST
for the TRUTH are going under it
and of course the false religions would , cause they already under the lie .
IT SEEMS TO ME like this entire world even
is merging under what they believe is love , and what the religoins believe is of GOD .
And its promising them the solution for world peace n safety , for peace in the middle east .
And yet if anyone truly understands they would have seen its interfaith solution IS OF ANTI CHRIST
for it DENIES the NEED for folks to repent to believe JESUS IS THE CHRIST . IT claims all religoins are serving the same God .
AND its all about finding common ground . DO you notice this which is of satan . IT must be exposed .
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