The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Runningman]

About God's Word Translation HURRY AND READ THIS SO YOU GET TO THE BOTTOM​

English translation of the Bible translated by the God's Word to the Nations Society
godsword.org
The God's Word Translation is an English translation of the Bible. God's Word to the Nations Mission Society managed and funded the translation. Wikipedia

Full name	God's Word Translation
Abbreviation	GW
Complete Bible, published	1995

If your bible only came into existence 29 years ago... what in the word did you use before then?​

https://www.biblestudytools.com/gw/john/1.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Word_Translation
From GWT
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was already with God in the beginning.
3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Word_Translation
HELLO:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Word_Translation
This is the bible you are referencing and it plainly as day says the word was God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Word_Translation​

HELLO, HELLO, HELLO.... ANYONE HOME????????????????????????????????????????????????????????​

From God's Word Translation... Link is above for anyone to access....

​

14 The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.​

That human being the Word became was Jesus....Do you not understand that?

Your bible states the Word was God. Your bible states the Word became human. Your bible states this was his only Son.

Only possible conclusion. The Son who was the Word who was God IS God

View attachment 992View attachment 993View attachment 994View attachment 995View attachment 996

Just like you are using apologetics to tackle the GWT of John 1:14 that calls the Word an IT... I am just doing what you are doing. I think at the end of the day, we shouldn't blame each other for being true to what we believe. You clearly don't believe the Word is an IT despite the Bible saying it in more than one place.

 

[Runningman]

If I say that (3rd) person is human, does that make me non-human???? That's your logic right there which falls flat on its face, as usual.

In fact, where in the entire Bible does the Word of God explicitly declare that he is not God? You've got a mental block that imagines myths and fairy tales.

In summary, you are a Person who

1. flat out contradicts John 1:1 "the Word was God".
2. has given himself the authority to change "Word of God" to "words of God" in the Bible.
3. imagines words speaking words.
4. degrades Jesus without even a second thought.
5. promotes myths and fairy tales,
6. promotes illogical sentences as logical,
7. failed miserably to prove this thread as false,
8. etc......

You've obviously lost all credibility to say anything believable against Trinitarianism.

I am not talking about a third person, I am talking about the third-person perspective in English grammar. When this kind of speaking style is used, it means someone isn't talking about themselves. Your following points are not related to the fact that the "word of God" referring to God in the third-person perspective rather than the first-person perspective would mean the word of God is not referring to itself as God. It's not an actual person... it's like saying the message of the Lord came to whoever.

 

[TomL]

I don't think Jesus is the Father.

I did not ask you what you think but what you believe trinitarians think

 

[TomL]

In John 1:1-3, there are two different beings in Trinitarian theology. There is the Word and then there is God. God is God and the Word is God. These verses say that the Word was with God. Then in John 1:3, the "he" in this verse refers back to the closest pronoun. This is a real English grammar rule known as the pronoun antecedent agreement. So the Word is not the Creator in John 1:3 based on the rules of grammar. I bolded the relevant noun and pronoun below.

Sorry that is an error and a basic reading comprehension failure. A pronoun does not always agree with the closest noun. It does agree with the dominant noun. The dominant being here is the Word

but if you want to play that game In Greek the last clause reads


καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
Erwin Nestle and Paul R. McReynolds, Nestle Aland 26th Edition Greek New Testament with McReynolds English Interlinear (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), Jn 1:1.

And God was the Word

So the nearest noun to the pronoun "he" is the Word

And you can ask AI

Does a pronoun always agree with its nearest antecedant

and it will tell you

Copilot​

No, not necessarily. Pronouns must agree with their grammatical antecedents in number, gender, and person, even if these aren’t the closest nouns. For example, in "The committee members gave their feedback," the pronoun "their" matches "committee members," not necessarily the nearest noun.

Finally you are still left with

John 1:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The word was made flesh

and still identified as Jesus Christ

So you still cannot separate the Word who was god with Jesus Christ

Thus you have a massive fail

 

[TomL]

This verse also disproves that the word is the creator. In John 1:9, we can see that in the present tense usage that the True Light was coming into the world after John the baptist had already gone around preaching. This would place Jesus at approximately 30 years old when the True Light was in the process of coming into the world. Since John 1:9 refers to the true Light coming into the world in the present tense then Jesus or the Word aren't the true Lights or the creator.

John 1 (NIV)​

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.​

With such poor understanding you have in verse 10

John 1:9–13 (NASB 2020) — 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

God the creator physically in the world

hello

You have God the father walking around in the world

Coming to his own people and his own people rejected him

Can you point to passages where we read about this God who came into the world was rejected by his own people but believed on by some

You see in my bible it is Jesus Christ




r

 

[TomL]

Context. Colossians 1:15 immediately proves that Jesus is not God, but rather refers to Jesus as part of and not independent from the creation. Hence Jesus is referred to the image of the invisible God which would mean that Jesus is not invisible nor the invisible God. Therefore, Jesus is not God. Since Jesus is not God, Colossians 1:16-18 refers to the context of the church. This is why God did not reconcile all things to himself until Jesus' death on the cross. Furthermore, it doesn't say Jesus is the creator, it says that God created "through" him. You need to dig into the Greek of Colossians 1:16 more because it proves that Jesus was the channel or instrument through which God created through, but it's obviously in regards to using Jesus as a prophet. There are no Old Testament examples of God actually creating through anyone.

Context is something you routinely ignore

Colossians 1:15–18 (NASB 2020) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Nowhere is Christ stated to be part of creation

Because you do not investigate word meaning and simply assume your interpretation, you fail to understand the meaning of first born here.

it points to his pre-eminence

The context supports this as Christ is pre-eminent over creation because he created it

All things were created by him. He could not have created himself, so he is not a part of creation



πρωτότοκος -ου, ὁ; (prōtotokos), adj. firstborn; first-born. Hebrew equivalent: בְּכֹר (110). LTW πρωτότοκος (Ancestry and Posterity), πρωτότοκος (Passover), πρωτότοκος (Inheritance).
Adjective Usage
1. firstborn† — of or designating the son first in order of birth; especially all the rights and privileges that accompany being the firstborn. Related Topics: Firstborn; First Fruits.
Lk 2:7 καὶ ἔτεκεν τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον,
Ro 8:29 εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς·
Heb 1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην,
Heb 11:28 ὁ ὀλοθρεύων τὰ πρωτότοκα
Heb 12:23 καὶ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων ἀπογεγραμμένων ἐν οὐρανοῖς,
2. first ⇔ firstborn† — preceding all others in time or space or degree; probably understood as still including all the rights and privileges that accompany being a physical firstborn.
Col 1:15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,
Col 1:18 ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἵνα γένηται ἐν
Re 1:5 ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

For example we read

Exodus 4:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

God did not give birth to Israel. it was his favorite

Psalm 89:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, Higher than the kings of the earth.

God would make this one higher than the kings of the earth

Firstborn denotes two things of Christ: He preceded the whole Creation, and He is Sovereign over all Creation. In the Old Testament a firstborn child had not only priority of birth but also the dignity and superiority that went with it (cf. Ex. 13:2-15; Deut. 21:17). When Jesus declared Himself the First (; Rev. 1:17), He used a word that means absolutely first. Firstborn also implies sovereignty. The description firstborn was not a fairly common Old Testament designation of the Messiah-God. I will also appoint Him My Firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth (Ps. 89:27). While this regal psalm refers to David, it also designates the Messiah, as seen in Revelation 1:5, where Christ is called the Firstborn from the dead (cf. Col. 1:18) and the Ruler of the kings of the earth. So Firstborn implies both Christs priority to all Creation (in time) and His sovereignty over all Creation (in rank).

such use is pointed to by the closing sentence of the passage

so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

 

[synergy]

I am not talking about a third person, I am talking about the third-person perspective in English grammar. When this kind of speaking style is used, it means someone isn't talking about themselves. Your following points are not related to the fact that the "word of God" referring to God in the third-person perspective rather than the first-person perspective would mean the word of God is not referring to itself as God. It's not an actual person... it's like saying the message of the Lord came to whoever.

So you're saying that the message of the Lord gave a message, or the words of the Lord spoke words? The only way that could possibly make sense is if it was a recorded message. There's no indication of that actually happening.

Also, even though the Word of God exhibits all the characteristics that a Person can possess and qualifies to be a Person, he is not a Person in your books? If I impose that same criteria on you, how do I know you're a person? Sure you speak and communicate like a person but just as easily as you degrade the Word of God to a non-person I can just as easily do the same thing to you.

 

[TomL]

Hebrews 1:1-2 prove that speaking through the Son is not a way God spoke in the past. Therefore, since God spoke in the past to create the universe, but didn't speak through the Son until these last days, then God didn't create by speaking through the Son. The worlds or universe weren't made ~2,000 years ago either.

This is a very weak argument

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The passage speaks of God's revelation through the prophet and has nothing at all to do with creation

The literal rendering of this verse refers to an age, i.e., the church/messianic age.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (Berean Literal Bible)​

1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,​

Again you do not investigate word meanings and usage and assume what you will

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;



αἰών -ος, ὁ; (aiōn), n. age. Hebrew equivalent: עוֹלָם (27). LTW αἰῶν (Eternity), αἰών (Time).
Noun Usage
1. era — a period of history having some distinctive feature.
Ga 1:4 ὅπως ἐξέληται ἡμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ αἰῶνος τοῦ ἐνεστῶτος πονηροῦ κατὰ
Eph 2:2 κατὰ τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου,
Eph 3:21 γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν
1 Ti 1:17 τῷ δὲ βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων, ἀφθάρτῳ, ἀοράτῳ, μόνῳ θεῷ,
Jud 25 δόξα μεγαλωσύνη κράτος καὶ ἐξουσία πρὸ παντὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος καὶ
2. evil age — a particular stage of history understood according to its values, beliefs, and morals in distinction to God’s.
Ro 12:2 τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ,
1 Co 2:6 τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου
1 Co 3:18 τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ,
2 Co 4:4 τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου
2 Ti 4:10 ἀγαπήσας τὸν νῦν αἰῶνα,
3. eternity† — time (as a continuum of experience) without beginning in the past or end in the future. Related Topic: Eternity.
Re 15:3 ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν αἰώνων·
4. universe ⇔ ages† — everything that exists anywhere; perhaps with some temporal focus. Related Topic: Age.
Heb 1:2 καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας·
Heb 11:3 πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας ῥήματι θεοῦ, εἰς τὸ μὴ
5. kingdom of God ⇔ era† — the kingdom of God, understood by the temporal span within which the kingdom is inaugurated and extant.
Lk 20:35 τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐκείνου
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

but you could have simply read the rest of the chapter

Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

because you do not investigate word use and do not consider context you continually misinterpret scripture

 

[synergy]

but if you want to play that game In Greek the last clause reads

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
Erwin Nestle and Paul R. McReynolds, Nestle Aland 26th Edition Greek New Testament with McReynolds English Interlinear (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), Jn 1:1.

And God was the Word

So the nearest noun to the pronoun "he" is the Word

Correct. @Runningman's failure to consult the Greek causes his heresies to blow up in his face again.Therefore, his entire heretical view of John 1 crashes and burns before our very eyes.

 

[TomL]

This verse disproves the Trinity with flying colors and is a Christian prooftext for the Father being the only true God.

John 17 (NIV)​

3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

​

Ephesians 4 (NIV)​

6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.​

If this verse disproves Jesus is God it also disproves The father is LORD

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB 2020) — 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Jesus is the one lord (heis kyrios)

Heis kyrios are the words greek speaking Hebrews used to denote one YHWH in the shema of Israel

Here it is in the New Testament

Mark 12:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

So the heis kyrios of 1cor 8:6 is the lord our God of Mark 12:29

As noted previously, john 17:3 does not state the father alone is the one true God

In Trinitarianism The Father, son , and the Holy Spirit are all the one true God

So a statement saying the Father is the one true God does not disprove trinitarianism

So you merely beg the question assuming your view only the father can be the one true God

And your interpretation of Eph 4 leaves you stuck with a declaration The father is not Lord

Ephesians 4:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

As we have seen Jesus is that one Lord 1Cor 8:6

and the Bible does point to Jesus the word being God

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

and because you prefer modern bibles

Titus 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

and approve of the NWT

(NWT) Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

and lets not leave off the old testament modern or old translation

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulder: And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[TomL]

Correct. @Runningman's failure to consult the Greek causes his heresies to blow up in his face again.Therefore, his entire heretical view of John 1 crashes and burns before our very eyes.

He dabbles in things he does not understand. Perhaps just posting that which he reads

 

[synergy]

I will go on record declaring you have an idol and God reads these threads. He reads everything and it's pardonable.

You just went on record as accusing all of Heaven of doing the same thing as all of Heaven is directing its worship to the Father's Throne where the Son sits along with the Father.

God is not a man or a son of man:

Numbers 23(KJV)​

19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?​

​

Hosea 11(KJV)​

9I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.​

That's the OT. You're thousands of years behind the times. You haven't heard of the Incarnation?

Jesus a man and a son of man:

​

John 8(KJV)​

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

​

Matthew 16 (KJV)​

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?​

Perfectly Trinitarian verses in that Jesus is human, not God only. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Some advice when you get there:

Luke 18 (KJV)​

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.​

That's advice for everyone, especially me.

 

[TomL]

Jesus is an entirely distinct being from God all together. They don't share the same attributes, names, statuses, etc. For example, where the word "God" and Jesus appear in close proximity one to another in Scripture, if you were to replace God with Trinity anywhere in the Bible then it wouldn't make any sense.

Thomas didn't ever actually say "You are God" to Jesus. That would be a perverse translation since it is no supported by the Greek text. No one ever translates it the way you do. Thomas made a declaration. If that was what Jesus was teaching people then they would have all been agreeing with Thomas and none did.

Pretty difficult for Jesus being God when he looked a man in the eyes and denied it. You calling Jesus a liar?

Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

Think about what Jesus said. If God is the Trinity then Jesus placed himself outside of the Trinity. If God is the Father, then Jesus isn't the Father and thus isn't God. If Jesus is God then he denied being the one who alone is good, which would be God. You should consider some context here. Jesus got his teachings from God, which would mean he didn't get them from himself. If he didn't get his teachers from himself then he isn't God or omniscient like God. Make sense?

John 7
16“My teaching is not My own,” Jesus replied. “It comes from Him who sent Me.

John 8
28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

Scripture does not support you

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(NWT)Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

John 10:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 I and my Father are one.

John 14:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 10:33 (KJV 1900) — 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

And greek expert disagree with your claim regarding

John 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

28.] The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.


PS Jesus not being the Father does not prove Jesus is not God


As i told you previously you are begging the question and assuming God is but one person

And Jesus did not deny being God that is another assumption you make based on your own interpretation

But do you declare Jesus is not good

 

[synergy]

Just like you are using apologetics to tackle the GWT of John 1:14 that calls the Word an IT... I am just doing what you are doing. I think at the end of the day, we shouldn't blame each other for being true to what we believe. You clearly don't believe the Word is an IT despite the Bible saying it in more than one place.

Where do you see verse 14 calling the word "it"??? I see a personal pronoun "His". Verses from the Unitarian Heretical Standard Edition are not recognized here.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[TomL]

Where do you see verse 14 calling the word "it"??? I see a personal pronoun "His". Verses from the Unitarian Heretical Standard Edition are not recognized here.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

He is reading from his theology not scripture.

 

[TomL]

Are these all Catholic guys?

No

He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.

God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.

The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.

Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.

Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.

We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.

Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.

For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.

[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.

Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.

He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.

David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.

The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.

If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.

“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.

He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.

Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.

God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.

There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.

God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.

“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.

For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.

I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.

Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.

He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.

Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.

How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.

It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.

He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.

Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.

Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.

He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.

Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.


David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–95.

 

[TomL]

Yeah that's right. I got them both off Amazon. Copied and pasted both and what was said about them. It's called an honest human mistake. Now what should you recommend for me? The death penalty?

Seeing as the information is false as shown by actual quotes of the Father there is nothing much to talk about

 

[TomL]

In John 1:1-3, there are two different beings in Trinitarian theology. There is the Word and then there is God. God is God and the Word is God. These verses say that the Word was with God. Then in John 1:3, the "he" in this verse refers back to the closest pronoun. This is a real English grammar rule known as the pronoun antecedent agreement. So the Word is not the Creator in John 1:3 based on the rules of grammar. I bolded the relevant noun and pronoun below.

​

Seeing as you incorrectly believe the pronoun must use the nearest noun as its antecedent then

1 John 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

You must believe Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life

 

[TomL]

Rewrite of earlier post
Sorry that is an error and a basic reading comprehension failure. A pronoun does not always agree with the closest noun. It does agree with the dominant noun. The dominant being here is the Word

However Look at the ESV

John 1:1–5 (ESV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

He and him are the same person

and the NASB

John 1:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.

He and him being the same person

Now as previously noted the greek text

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

Eberhard Nestle, Erwin Nestle, et al., The Greek New Testament (27th ed.; Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1993), Jn 1:1.

is word for word

and God was the word

The pronoun he would refer to the word

The pronouns he and him refer to the same person the word

But if you want to properly understand grammar

You can ask AI

Does a pronoun always agree with its nearest antecedant

and it will tell you

Copilot​

No, not necessarily. Pronouns must agree with their grammatical antecedents in number, gender, and person, even if these aren’t the closest nouns. For example, in "The committee members gave their feedback," the pronoun "their" matches "committee members," not necessarily the nearest noun.

Finally you are still left with

John 1:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Or as a modern version would have it

John 1:14–19 (NASB95) — 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”


The word was made flesh

and still identified as Jesus Christ

So you still cannot separate the Word who was God with Jesus Christ

Thus you have a massive fail

 

[Peterlag]

No

He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.

God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.

The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.

Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.

Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.

We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.

Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.

For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.

[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.

Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.

He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.

David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.

The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.

If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.

“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.

He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.

Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.

God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.

There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.

God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.

“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.

For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.

I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.

Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.

He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.

Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.

How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.

It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.

He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.

Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.

Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.

He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.

Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.


David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–95.

Wow this pagan concept goes back far!!!