The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

[DavidTree]

Yep, I am 100% certain.

Immanuel = God with us or God is with us --- God was with us through Jesus Christ - God was not with us literally, but working powerfully throught his Son, just as 2 Corinthians 5:19 indicates: “That God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself” (NKJV). It is important to read exactly what was written: God was in Christ, not God was Christ.

The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”........ Yes, Jesus is the Messiah. And yes, he was 'before Abraham' in the foreknowledge of God.

Not with us personally???

JESUS Says, "If you have seen ME you have seen the FATHER" = EQUALITY of PERSON = PERSON is GOD

"That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.
He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father which sent him."

 

[amazing grace]

Not with us personally???

Scripture says that God was IN Christ not Christ is God ---- scripture says that the Father was IN Jesus NOT Jesus was God.
God and Christ are IN us spiritually if we are born again of the spirit. Jesus prayed about that --- regarding the Father IN HIM and HIM IN THE FATHER ---- that we also may be IN THEM ---- Jesus IN US and God IN him. CHRIST IN US THE HOPE OF GLORY!

....that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me....... I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. [John 17:21,23]

JESUS Says, "If you have seen ME you have seen the FATHER" = EQUALITY of PERSON = PERSON is GOD

Yea, sure - not equally but qualitatively ---- Jesus perfectly reflected the character of God so when we see him we see the Father reflected through him.

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him........Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say 'Show us the Father'? (HOW?) Do you not believe that I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me?......Believe me that I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me or else believe on account of the works themselves [John 14:7,9, 10a,11]

Who did the works? Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that GOD DID THROUGH HIM in your midst, as you yourselves know..... [Acts 2:22]

"That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.
He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father which sent him."

Yes, that is correct --- but please NOTE: it is the Father which sent him ---- therefore, the ONE SENT is NOT THE ONE WHO SENT HIM.

The SENDER does not = the one sent nor does the one SENT = the SENDER.

 

[DavidTree]

Scripture says that God was IN Christ

CORRECT = IMMANUEL = GOD with us

not Christ in God

FALSE

The Scripture Declares that Christ and God are inseparable = "The WORD was GOD"

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are One.”
Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me;

JESUS told you = but you do not believe His words

 

[mikesw]

Stop making Jesus out to be someone he isn't.

Yes, I don't need run down every rabbit hole with you all if I can just sweep your arguments off their feet with one point. The premise and conclusion cannot follow soundly since coming into the world is demonstrably about just simply being born. Actually, people still talk this way about live birth. When someone is born they say they brought them into the world.

If you can do such swift sweeping, then share those rather than pushing your bad stuff here.

 

[amazing grace]

CORRECT = IMMANUEL = GOD with us

Yes, spiritually God is with us through Christ because he is in Christ.

FALSE
The Scripture Declares that Christ and God are inseparable = "The WORD was GOD"

Nope. Jesus perfectly reflected the character of God so when we see him we see the Father reflected through him.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are One.”
Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me;

JESUS told you = but you do not believe His words

Oh, LOOK The works Jesus did was IN HIS FATHER'S NAME (God's name) meaning in his Father's authority (God's authority)

I totally believe his words and Yes, I AGREE that JESUS is IN the FATHER and the FATHER IS IN ME......I just quoted how they are one and we are also one IN THEM in John 17

Scripture says that God was IN Christ not Christ is God ---- scripture says that the Father was IN Jesus NOT Jesus was God.
God and Christ are IN us spiritually if we are born again of the spirit. Jesus prayed about that --- regarding the Father IN HIM and HIM IN THE FATHER ---- that we also may be IN THEM ---- Jesus IN US and God IN him. CHRIST IN US THE HOPE OF GLORY!

....that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me....... I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. [John 17:21,23]
<snip>
If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him........Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say 'Show us the Father'? (HOW?) Do you not believe that I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me?......Believe me that I am IN the Father and the Father is IN me or else believe on account of the works themselves [John 14:7,9, 10a,11]

Who did the works? Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that GOD DID THROUGH HIM in your midst, as you yourselves know..... [Acts 2:22]

Yes, that is correct --- but please NOTE: it is the Father which sent him ---- therefore, the ONE SENT is NOT THE ONE WHO SENT HIM.

The SENDER does not = the one sent nor does the one SENT = the SENDER.

 

[Runningman]

The Bible doesn't say "incarnation" but "became flesh," the bloodless Word though was God, emptied Himself the form of God and take the form of a servant in the likeness of man/flesh that had blood to shed for the hope of salvation to us all in faith.

Good, thank you for acknowledging that the Bible doesn't use your terminology to describe the Word. The Bible says the "Word became flesh" meaning that it became something it previously was not, while simultaneously didn't cease to exist. You cannot have your non-physical immaterial Word and the Word being flesh at the same time because there isn't an incarnation. See John 1:3,14 "All things were made...the Word became flesh" means Jesus was created.

Was the disciples that worship Jesus commit idolatry? (Mat 28:17)
Was all the creation in heaven and on earth, etc., and the elders commit idolatry when they worshiped the Father and Jesus?
I might say, test your theories, and answer with Bible verses not just own private interpretation.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Jesus was never worshipped as God in the Bible. In Revelation 5, Jesus isn't the One on the throne that they were worshipping. Jesus came to the One on the throne where they were worshipping. Jesus was probably worshipping the One on the throne with them.

Revelation 5
7And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

The word "became" with Strong#G1096, in Greek "γίνομαι ginomai" Bible Lexicons defined it as means - to come, to acquire or experience a state, to become, the Word became a human being' or 'the Word became a person' John 1:14, come into existence, begin to be, to become and etc.

Through Bible lexicons definitions it means that the Word became human being or person, to become flesh, to come into existence as flesh, begin to be flesh and etc., and no definition as being created.

Joh 1:14 And R1the WordG3056 R2becameG1096 fleshG4561, and N1 R3dweltG4637 amongG1722 us, and R4we sawG2300 His gloryG1391, gloryG1391 as of N2the onlyG3439 begottenG3439 from the FatherG3962, fullG4134 of R5graceG5485 and R6truthG225.

NT:1096 (Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon)
γίνομαι ginomai
to come, to acquire or experience a state, to become, the Word became a human being' or 'the Word became a person' John 1:14;
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

G1096 (Thayer)
γίνομαι ginomai
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

G1096 (TDNT)
γίνομαι ginomai
It means in the literal sense become, originate, come into existence.
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

Right, so everywhere in the Greek New Testament or LXX, where the word "became" is used, does it ever once describe an incarnation? Is there any precedent for the novel doctrine you are promoting?

The word "before" with Strong#G4413, in Greek "πρῶτος prōtos" defined by various Bible Lexicons as means - pertaining to a point of time earlier in a sequence, etc.

Thus, as the Word became human named Jesus, Who is Jesus before He became human?
A very simple logic, He existed as the Word that was God in the beginning, through the Word all things were created, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:15 JohnG2491 *R1testifiedG3140 aboutG4012 Him and criedG2896 out, sayingG3004, "ThisG3778 was He of whomG3739 I saidG3004, 'R2He who comesG2064 afterG3694 me N1hasG1096 a higherG1715 rankG1715 than I, R3for He existedG1510 beforeG4413 me.'"

G4413 (Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon)
πρῶτος prōtos
pertaining to a point of time earlier in a sequence - 'before, former, formerly.
(from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright © 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

G4413 (TDNT)
πρῶτος prōtos
More common is the meaning "first" in time, number, or sequence
(from Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, abridged edition, Copyright © 1985 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)

G4413 (Vine's)
πρῶτος prōtos
denotes "the first," whether in time or place.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

G4413 (Thayer)
πρῶτος prōtos
1) first in time or place
1a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
2a) influence, honour
2b) chief
2c) principal
3) first, at the first

You have used your lexicon to discover that "before" in John 1:15 says "first in rank, influence, chief, principal" meaning that John 1:15 doesn't guarantee that Jesus was chronologically before John the Baptist. John was pointing at a human and saying "He was before me" so where was the human John was referring to before himself? John referred to Jesus as a man, not God in the passage.

The man Jesus is not before John the Baptist in time, but rather Jesus is "before" John in importance. This is a common mistake trinitarians make because they typically wrongly believe Jesus pre-existed.

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, spiritually God is with us through Christ because he is in Christ.

Nope. Jesus perfectly reflected the character of God so when we see him we see the Father reflected through him.

Oh, LOOK The works Jesus did was IN HIS FATHER'S NAME (God's name) meaning in his Father's authority (God's authority)

I totally believe his words and Yes, I AGREE that JESUS is IN the FATHER and the FATHER IS IN ME......I just quoted how they are one and we are also one IN THEM in John 17

"I and My Father are One.”
"Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me;"

JESUS told you = but you do not believe His words

What prevents you from believing the words of GOD???

 

[Capbook]

Good, thank you for acknowledging that the Bible doesn't use your terminology to describe the Word. The Bible says the "Word became flesh" meaning that it became something it previously was not, while simultaneously didn't cease to exist. You cannot have your non-physical immaterial Word and the Word being flesh at the same time because there isn't an incarnation. See John 1:3,14 "All things were made...the Word became flesh" means Jesus was created.

The word "became" in Greek is "γίνομαι ginomai."

And the word "created" in Greek are;
1. κτίζω ktizō, - Mark 13:9, Strong#G2936
2. κτίσις ktisis, - Romans 8:39, Strong#G2937
3. πλάσσω plassō - 1Tim 2:13, Strong#G4111
4. κτίσμα ktisma - 1Tim 4:4, Strong#G2938
5. ποιέω poieō - Heb 12:27, Strong#G4160.

I wonder why, not one of the 5 above was used in reference to Jesus?
Just to clear the doubt and evade misinterpretation.

Jesus was never worshipped as God in the Bible. In Revelation 5, Jesus isn't the One on the throne that they were worshipping. Jesus came to the One on the throne where they were worshipping. Jesus was probably worshipping the One on the throne with them.

Revelation 5
7And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

Nothing in that quoted verses align with you interpretation.
Sitting or not on the throne Jesus was worshiped. (Mat 28:17, Rev 5:13,14)

Right, so everywhere in the Greek New Testament or LXX, where the word "became" is used, does it ever once describe an incarnation? Is there any precedent for the novel doctrine you are promoting?

You can use any term you want, but I differ them through Bible words.
See the Greek of "became" and "created" above, nothing is close.

You have used your lexicon to discover that "before" in John 1:15 says "first in rank, influence, chief, principal" meaning that John 1:15 doesn't guarantee that Jesus was chronologically before John the Baptist. John was pointing at a human and saying "He was before me" so where was the human John was referring to before himself? John referred to Jesus as a man, not God in the passage.

The man Jesus is not before John the Baptist in time, but rather Jesus is "before" John in importance. This is a common mistake trinitarians make because they typically wrongly believe Jesus pre-existed.

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’

I believe preconceived beliefs firmly held, caused mistakes.
1. The "after me comes a man," that was when the Word became man/flesh/born/ six months after John the Baptist's birth.
2. The "for He existed before me," that was before Jesus became man/flesh/born, He was the Word that was God. (John 1:1-3,14)

(NAS95) John 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

 

[JesusFan]

The word "became" in Greek is "γίνομαι ginomai."

And the word "created" in Greek are;
1. κτίζω ktizō, - Mark 13:9, Strong#G2936
2. κτίσις ktisis, - Romans 8:39, Strong#G2937
3. πλάσσω plassō - 1Tim 2:13, Strong#G4111
4. κτίσμα ktisma - 1Tim 4:4, Strong#G2938
5. ποιέω poieō - Heb 12:27, Strong#G4160.

I wonder why, not one of the 5 above was used in reference to Jesus?
Just to clear the doubt and evade misinterpretation.

Nothing in that quoted verses align with you interpretation.
Sitting or not on the throne Jesus was worshiped. (Mat 28:17, Rev 5:13,14)

You can use any term you want, but I differ them through Bible words.
See the Greek of "became" and "created" above, nothing is close.

I believe preconceived beliefs firmly held, caused mistakes.
1. The "after me comes a man," that was when the Word became man/flesh/born/ six months after John the Baptist's birth.
2. The "for He existed before me," that was before Jesus became man/flesh/born, He was the Word that was God. (John 1:1-3,14)

(NAS95) John 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

Indeed, as Jesus preexisted in heaven before the Incarnation

 

[Runningman]

The word "became" in Greek is "γίνομαι ginomai."

And the word "created" in Greek are;
1. κτίζω ktizō, - Mark 13:9, Strong#G2936
2. κτίσις ktisis, - Romans 8:39, Strong#G2937
3. πλάσσω plassō - 1Tim 2:13, Strong#G4111
4. κτίσμα ktisma - 1Tim 4:4, Strong#G2938
5. ποιέω poieō - Heb 12:27, Strong#G4160.

I wonder why, not one of the 5 above was used in reference to Jesus?
Just to clear the doubt and evade misinterpretation.

You should not make arguments based on semantics if you cannot gracefully accept how the word "became" is used both linguistically and theologically throughout the Bible. It is never used to describe an incarnation, nor does the word for incarnation exist in Scripture, as I believe you have already rightly confessed. In fact, the Jews or Greeks didn't have a word for incarnation in their society/culture/religion at that particular time in history. The concept you claiming existed at that time was a concept foreign to them.

Nothing in that quoted verses align with you interpretation.
Sitting or not on the throne Jesus was worshiped. (Mat 28:17, Rev 5:13,14)

Yes it aligns. This means Jesus isn't the throne sitter in Revelation.

Revelation 5
7And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

No Jesus wasn't ever worshipped as God in the Bible. Knee bowing and face planting on the ground is not true worship.

You can use any term you want, but I differ them through Bible words.
See the Greek of "became" and "created" above, nothing is close.

So your logic lacks consistency and is nonsensical. So you believe that anything that "became" something else is an incarnation? Please explain.

I believe preconceived beliefs firmly held, caused mistakes.
1. The "after me comes a man," that was when the Word became man/flesh/born/ six months after John the Baptist's birth.
2. The "for He existed before me," that was before Jesus became man/flesh/born, He was the Word that was God. (John 1:1-3,14)

(NAS95) John 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

That's what I am quoting. So your arguments are not supported by Scripture. Let's settle this. Show one example of Jesus in the Old Testament saying or doing anything and I will accept your interpretation as plausible, but if I show you an example of Jesus being more important than John you must accept my interpretation as plausible. Fair?

 

[mikesw]

You should not make arguments based on semantics if you cannot gracefully accept how the word "became" is used both linguistically and theologically throughout the Bible. It is never used to describe an incarnation, nor does the word for incarnation exist in Scripture, as I believe you have already rightly confessed. In fact, the Jews or Greeks didn't have a word for incarnation in their society/culture/religion at that particular time in history. The concept you claiming existed at that time was a concept foreign to them.

Another self-defeating argument by runningman.
When a concept has not been described before, certainly the words for it do not exist. So when it has happened, the only existing words must then be used to describe the new phenomena. Thanks for demonstrating the lack of an argument by the unitarians again.
You still do not understand metalepsis. That goes too far beyond the hyperliteralism that confines the thinking of the unitarian. If you cannot come up with a sufficient argument, it is best not to push your ideas

Yes it aligns. This means Jesus isn't the throne sitter in Revelation.

Revelation 5
7And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

No Jesus wasn't ever worshipped as God in the Bible. Knee bowing and face planting on the ground is not true worship.

Christians worshiped Jesus as God as evidenced already in the second century. Hurtado mentions of the early Christian worship of Jesus within a binitarian understanding of God. Everything unitarians propose are exposed as fallacies from the beginning.

So your logic lacks consistency and is nonsensical. So you believe that anything that "became" something else is an incarnation? Please explain.

Such ignorance is exposed again. You repeat the error addressed earlier. Since incarnation was not known until Christ, nothing else is described as incarnation. Stop making the most basic of errors.

That's what I am quoting. So your arguments are not supported by Scripture. Let's settle this. Show one example of Jesus in the Old Testament saying or doing anything and I will accept your interpretation as plausible, but if I show you an example of Jesus being more important than John you must accept my interpretation as plausible. Fair?

You deny what scripture conveys and thus say scripture does not support incarnation. The hyperliteralist denies the basic meaning shared.

And you have rejected the likely references to the preexisting One who comes in the flesh as Jesus by the simple technique of the unitarian where he simply denies, denies, denies. Oops. I maybe should point out again that there is not body of Jesus to appear before the incarnation. However the unitarian uses as an argument the lack of the OT mention of the physical body and naming of that person as Jesus. Thus, the unitarian asks a nonsensical way to be presented to overcome his doubt who Jesus is.

 

[Capbook]

You should not make arguments based on semantics if you cannot gracefully accept how the word "became" is used both linguistically and theologically throughout the Bible. It is never used to describe an incarnation, nor does the word for incarnation exist in Scripture, as I believe you have already rightly confessed. In fact, the Jews or Greeks didn't have a word for incarnation in their society/culture/religion at that particular time in history. The concept you claiming existed at that time was a concept foreign to them.

They are not semantics, they are Bible Lexicons definitions of original Greek words.
Isn't the New Testament written in Greek?
If you ever chose still to make Jesus as created, just chose one of the 5 below, then there would be no debate about that.
But as preconceived beliefs firmly held persist, they search for other words instead of these 5 easy ones.

The word "became" in Greek is "γίνομαι ginomai."

And the word "created" in Greek are;
1. κτίζω ktizō, - Mark 13:9, Strong#G2936
2. κτίσις ktisis, - Romans 8:39, Strong#G2937
3. πλάσσω plassō - 1Tim 2:13, Strong#G4111
4. κτίσμα ktisma - 1Tim 4:4, Strong#G2938
5. ποιέω poieō - Heb 12:27, Strong#G4160.

Yes it aligns. This means Jesus isn't the throne sitter in Revelation.

Ok, find me in that verse that Jesus worshiped the Father.

Revelation 5
7And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

No Jesus wasn't ever worshipped as God in the Bible. Knee bowing and face planting on the ground is not true worship.

So, the Father and Jesus wasn't rendered true worship in Rev 5:13,14?
Nothing "knee bowing and face planting on the ground" was stated when they worshiped Jesus.
Also, nothing was stated that those who worshiped Jesus committed idolatry.
Proves that they worshiped a Divine being.

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

So your logic lacks consistency and is nonsensical. So you believe that anything that "became" something else is an incarnation? Please explain.

Again, see the definition of "became" and "created" above, there will be no debate if any of the 5 were ever used for Jesus.

That's what I am quoting. So your arguments are not supported by Scripture. Let's settle this. Show one example of Jesus in the Old Testament saying or doing anything and I will accept your interpretation as plausible, but if I show you an example of Jesus being more important than John you must accept my interpretation as plausible. Fair?

Before Jesus became flesh He was the Word, the Word that created all things through Him.
It is not "doing anything" but "doing everything."

Of course Jesus is more important than John, John quote Isa 40:3, "make straight the way of the Lord," applying it to the very soon appearance of Jesus to his listeners. John thus recognized and proves that this One had existed before him as before Jesus became flesh, He was the Word. (John 1:14,15)

Isa 40:3 A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
Joh 1:23 He said, "I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,' as Isaiah the prophet said."

 

[Runningman]

They are not semantics, they are Bible Lexicons definitions of original Greek words.
Isn't the New Testament written in Greek?
If you ever chose still to make Jesus as created, just chose one of the 5 below, then there would be no debate about that.
But as preconceived beliefs firmly held persist, they search for other words instead of these 5 easy ones.

The word "became" in Greek is "γίνομαι ginomai."

And the word "created" in Greek are;
1. κτίζω ktizō, - Mark 13:9, Strong#G2936
2. κτίσις ktisis, - Romans 8:39, Strong#G2937
3. πλάσσω plassō - 1Tim 2:13, Strong#G4111
4. κτίσμα ktisma - 1Tim 4:4, Strong#G2938
5. ποιέω poieō - Heb 12:27, Strong#G4160.

Jesus taught the world that he is of the creation of God.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Ok, find me in that verse that Jesus worshiped the Father.

Matthew 26
39And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

So, the Father and Jesus wasn't rendered true worship in Rev 5:13,14?

Nothing "knee bowing and face planting on the ground" was stated when they worshiped Jesus.
Also, nothing was stated that those who worshiped Jesus committed idolatry.
Proves that they worshiped a Divine being.

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Again, see the definition of "became" and "created" above, there will be no debate if any of the 5 were ever used for Jesus.

No Jesus was never worshipped in spirit and truth in the Bible since that would contradict what worship is. I would say the translators of your bibles were a bit heavy handed, translating things in ways that seem to make theological sense on the surface for the trinitarian, but not in a way that makes sense in accordance with the Bible. Worship is a bit of a loaded word in the case of Jesus. Elsewhere in the Bible where people are bowed to, the translators just chose "bowed to" instead of worship.

Before Jesus became flesh He was the Word, the Word that created all things through Him.
It is not "doing anything" but "doing everything."

Please show any verse from the Old Testament that can support your claim. If you can't show me an example then I won't believe it.

Of course Jesus is more important than John, John quote Isa 40:3, "make straight the way of the Lord," applying it to the very soon appearance of Jesus to his listeners. John thus recognized and proves that this One had existed before him as before Jesus became flesh, He was the Word. (John 1:14,15)

John the Baptist never applied Isaiah 40:3. John was speaking of YHWH in this context and calling people to come take the baptism of repentance. Let me remind you, Jesus also took John's water baptism in accordance with making straight the way of his Lord.

Isa 40:3 A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
Joh 1:23 He said, "I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,' as Isaiah the prophet said."

Jesus was water baptized in accordance with John's call to repentance. So if you are trying to apply that to Jesus you're going to have a hard time. God doesn't take water baptisms of repentance, but Jesus does.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus taught the world that he is of the creation of God.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Matthew 26
39And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

No Jesus was never worshipped in spirit and truth in the Bible since that would contradict what worship is. I would say the translators of your bibles were a bit heavy handed, translating things in ways that seem to make theological sense on the surface for the trinitarian, but not in a way that makes sense in accordance with the Bible. Worship is a bit of a loaded word in the case of Jesus. Elsewhere in the Bible where people are bowed to, the translators just chose "bowed to" instead of worship.

Please show any verse from the Old Testament that can support your claim. If you can't show me an example then I won't believe it.


John the Baptist never applied Isaiah 40:3. John was speaking of YHWH in this context and calling people to come take the baptism of repentance. Let me remind you, Jesus also took John's water baptism in accordance with making straight the way of his Lord.

Jesus was water baptized in accordance with John's call to repentance. So if you are trying to apply that to Jesus you're going to have a hard time. God doesn't take water baptisms of repentance, but Jesus does.

Pre a recognized and reknown Greek Scholar
The beginning of the creation of God (η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου). Not the first of creatures as the Arians held and Unitarians do now, but the originating source of creation through whom God works (Colossians 1:15; Colossians 1:18, a passage probably known to the Laodiceans, John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2, as is made clear by Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 5:13).

Revelation 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Revelation 3, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

studylight.org

 

[Runningman]

Pre a recognized and reknown Greek Scholar
The beginning of the creation of God (η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου). Not the first of creatures as the Arians held and Unitarians do now, but the originating source of creation through whom God works (Colossians 1:15; Colossians 1:18, a passage probably known to the Laodiceans, John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2, as is made clear by Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 5:13).

Revelation 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Revelation 3, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

studylight.org

There are many Bibles translated by Trinitarians that say "Beginning" in Revelation 3:14 so it isn't as if Unitarians made it up as a clever argument. ἀρχὴ (arché) being translated as "beginning" happens all over the Bible. Jesus being of the creation of God is an honest and accurate translation and it doesn't stand alone. The Bible is rich in material to show that Jesus was created.

 

[synergy]

There are many Bibles translated by Trinitarians that say "Beginning" in Revelation 3:14 so it isn't as if Unitarians made it up as a clever argument. ἀρχὴ (arché) being translated as "beginning" happens all over the Bible. Jesus being of the creation of God is an honest and accurate translation and it doesn't stand alone. The Bible is rich in material to show that Jesus was created.

John 1:1-18 clearly rebukes every single Judaizing heresy that unitarians embody.

 

[Capbook]

Jesus taught the world that he is of the creation of God.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

As we always forget that all things were created through the Word that was God.
Always led us to misinterpret other verses, we have to based our understanding from the beginning.
Whatever "all things" created, it includes even the visible and invisible, thrones, rulers and etc, was through the Word.

Matthew 26
39And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

We are discussing Rev 5:13,14, you interpret the "to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb" as being worshiped by all.
Your awkward opinion state that "the Lamb was probably worshiping to Him who sits on the throne,"
Nothing in that verse that says that.
They're both rendered the same worship, the Father and the Lamb.

No Jesus was never worshipped in spirit and truth in the Bible since that would contradict what worship is. I would say the translators of your bibles were a bit heavy handed, translating things in ways that seem to make theological sense on the surface for the trinitarian, but not in a way that makes sense in accordance with the Bible.

I prefer to quote literal word for word Bible translations that abide in the process of modern "textual criticism" that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages.
Like NAS95, Legacy Standard Bible, NASB, Young Litereal Translation, A Faithful Version, Updated ASV and etc.
In Greek, Westcott and Hort, "The New Testament in Original Greek" and etc.
May we know your resources?

Worship is a bit of a loaded word in the case of Jesus. Elsewhere in the Bible where people are bowed to, the translators just chose "bowed to" instead of worship.

The disciples worshiped the already ascended Jesus, this worship was not given by way of civil respect, for it was after He was parted from them, and carried back into heaven, that they offered it to Him. The acts of civil respect are always performed in the presence of the person.
Thus it means the worship they rendered to Jesus was an adoration of Him as their God.

(NAS95) Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
(KJV) Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Please show any verse from the Old Testament that can support your claim. If you can't show me an example then I won't believe it.

Didn't you read your Bible?
The Word became flesh/born only in the New Testament and was named Jesus in Matthew 1:25.

John the Baptist never applied Isaiah 40:3. John was speaking of YHWH in this context and calling people to come take the baptism of repentance. Let me remind you, Jesus also took John's water baptism in accordance with making straight the way of his Lord.

As John the Baptist quote Isaiah 40:3 but you mean never applied it?
Then Who do you believe the One Lord in 1Corinthians 8:6?

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Jesus was water baptized in accordance with John's call to repentance. So if you are trying to apply that to Jesus you're going to have a hard time. God doesn't take water baptisms of repentance, but Jesus does.

As John the Baptist pave the way for the fulfillment of the plan of salvation, though he hesitated first, and even consider himself as one need to be baptized by Jesus.
But Jesus said, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him."
And behold the Trinity was then present, a voice from the Father in heavens.

Mat 3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted Him.
Mat 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

 

[Runningman]

John 1:1-18 clearly rebukes every single Judaizing heresy that unitarians embody.

Really? John 1:1-18 is what I am quoting too.

 

[Runningman]

As we always forget that all things were created through the Word that was God.
Always led us to misinterpret other verses, we have to based our understanding from the beginning.
Whatever "all things" created, it includes even the visible and invisible, thrones, rulers and etc, was through the Word.

God's spoken words aren't a person though nor are they God. God is a person, words are not a person. Check out the Old Testament. Can the word of God be personified? Yes it can be according to Scripture: (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11)

But is the word of God actually a thing after all? Yes it is, John explicitly called the Word of life a thing in his prologue in 1John 1:1-3.

We are discussing Rev 5:13,14, you interpret the "to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb" as being worshiped by all.
Your awkward opinion state that "the Lamb was probably worshiping to Him who sits on the throne,"
Nothing in that verse that says that.
They're both rendered the same worship, the Father and the Lamb.

No, you have incorrectly added the word "worship" there where none is stated in Revelation 5:13. It says: “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!” So don't add words like "worship" where none are stated.

In regards to worship, only the One who sits on the throne is being worshipped. The Lamb came to the throne where they were circled around and that is the throne they fell down and worshipped around. The Lamb isn't on the throne where they were worshipping.

Rev 5:7 - And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.
Rev 5:11 - Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels encircling the throne, and the living creatures and the elders.
Rev 5:14 - And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

I prefer to quote literal word for word Bible translations that abide in the process of modern "textual criticism" that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages.
Like NAS95, Legacy Standard Bible, NASB, Young Litereal Translation, A Faithful Version, Updated ASV and etc.
In Greek, Westcott and Hort, "The New Testament in Original Greek" and etc.
May we know your resources?

The disciples worshiped the already ascended Jesus, this worship was not given by way of civil respect, for it was after He was parted from them, and carried back into heaven, that they offered it to Him. The acts of civil respect are always performed in the presence of the person.
Thus it means the worship they rendered to Jesus was an adoration of Him as their God.

(NAS95) Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
(KJV) Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

In the NASB, they said Jesus was worshipped in Matthew 14:33 "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are truly God’s Son!” So I can understand how you could possibly be confused if you were to read just that verse then walk away without a proper study. Trinitarian theologians and translators did this to try to guide you into the direction that Jesus is God, but modern textual criticism shows that when others were bowed to and the same exact Greek word is used, they instead didn't say worship, they said bowed down or something similar.

Matt 18:26 says, using the exact same Greek word for worship in Matt 14:33, "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying..." So now it sounds like just bowing, not God worship. It's possible to translate the Bible any number of ways for theological precision, but not necessarily in a way that reflects the truth. The NASB is one of many highly biased trinitarian translations, as I just showed you evidence of. So we know that Jesus was never worshipped as God, since prostrating oneself isn't what true worship is as Jesus directed only to the Father in John 4:23,24.

Didn't you read your Bible?
The Word became flesh/born only in the New Testament and was named Jesus in Matthew 1:25.

The Word didn't transform into flesh or else God would be flesh and God would be a creation. However, God did speak words and that is what created flesh.

As John the Baptist quote Isaiah 40:3 but you mean never applied it?
Then Who do you believe the One Lord in 1Corinthians 8:6?

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

As John the Baptist pave the way for the fulfillment of the plan of salvation, though he hesitated first, and even consider himself as one need to be baptized by Jesus.
But Jesus said, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him."
And behold the Trinity was then present, a voice from the Father in heavens.

Mat 3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted Him.
Mat 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

John was referring to YHWH, but the one Lord of the church is Jesus, but the one God is the Father. Different contexts about different things. The Father is still a Lord, but in a different way and a different context. I believe I understand your confusion as conflating Lords in different context and trying to combine them into the same Lord. There is a different Lord who sent Jesus, for example.

The Lord who blots out sins is the same Lord who sent Jesus. If there is a Lord who sent Jesus then that Lord isn't Jesus in this context.

Acts 3
19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

It's just that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title never given to Jesus in all of Scripture, but Jesus is the Lord of the church. Paul and others didn't always clarify that in their writings, but we have enough material to know that God and Jesus aren't the same Lord. There is a hierarchy.

The Father is the Lord of heaven and earth:
Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus is Lord of the church:
Ephesians 1
22And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church,

 

[synergy]

Really? John 1:1-18 is what I am quoting too.

Then you agree that the Word was God (John 1:1c) and He tabernacled as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14). And since God cannot cease to be God then the tabernacled Word, Jesus, is God. Excellent!