The Trinity study ,plural references to God in the Old Testament:Plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs

[synergy]

1John 1:1-3 refers to the Word as a thing. Eternal life isn't a person. Do you see it? I'll even highlight it for you.

The Word is eternal life, eternal life is a thing, and it was revealed to the disciples, i.e., Jesus told them the way to eternal life. Explicitly says of the Word/eternal life that it's a that, which, this, what, and it. Means the Word isn't a person.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

Again, Bible Scholars understand how Greek-styled neuter pronouns are used in the Bible. They understand that they can refer to an abstracted or collective reality, which doesn't always make the reality an inanimate thing. Perfect example is John 3:6: “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” We can all agree that a thing is not born of Spirit, people are. Right?

 

[synergy]

Don't get into the same pickle @mikesw did. There are no examples of Jesus in the Old Testament pre-existing. Show where he's at then clearly and explicitly.

Crack open your Old Testament and you will notice that it portrays the Word of the Lord not as an impersonal utterance but as a communicator exhibiting full personal traits—initiative, intentionality, and authority. The repeated prophetic formula “the Word of the Lord came to…” (Jer 1:4; Ezek 1:3; Hos 1:1) presents the Word as an acting subject that initiates contact, addresses specific individuals, and delivers intelligible speech. The Word confronts, instructs, and commissions the prophets, distinguishing itself from their own thoughts or reflections. Such consistent depiction of the Word as one who comes, speaks, and addresses persons demonstrates individual agency and personal interaction rather than abstract divine information.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes, all things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made = by God's speech.

Yes, God's word was with him just as your word is with you.....your word is not with someone else.

It could be.

Everyday there is a press conference on TV and if you ever watch the press secretary speak and answer questions they always talk with the authority that the President has given them with what to say. Not only are they separate people, they usually are not even in the same room as the President.

The same could well be said of any interpreter who is translating one language into another when foreign dignitaries are exchanging ideas.

The same also can be said for your spouse and you who are 2 individuals but one flesh... Gen 2:24, Matt 19:5, Mark 10:8, Eph 5:31 when each of you have the legal authority to speak for the other...

You word can very definitely be with someone else.

 

[amazing grace]

The nature that everyone thinks about when conversing about human nature. How many human natures do humans have?

<snip>
Jesus is a human being, therefore has a human nature.
He is the anointed of God, Jesus Christ, the Son of God who displays the characteristics of God NOT GOD'S INHERENT, INNATE ATTRIBUTES [omni's, invisibility, immortality (he was given immortality)] but God's characteristics of righteousness, justice, holiness, kindness, love, grace, merciful, faithfulness, truthfulness, etc.

You just contradicted RM who claimed that Jesus has "the nature of God". Well done.

I guess you just cannot give me your definition of nature?

If you mean by the 'the nature of God' the characteristics of God - Jesus does share these characteristics but if you mean by 'the nature of God', the innate inherent attributes of God - Jesus does not have.

I doubt that I have contradicted RM with what I have said....... instead of an accusation toward me ask him.

cc: @Runningman

 

[amazing grace]

It could be.

Everyday there is a press conference on TV and if you ever watch the press secretary speak and answer questions they always talk with the authority that the President has given them with what to say. Not only are they separate people, they usually are not even in the same room as the President.

The same could well be said of any interpreter who is translating one language into another when foreign dignitaries are exchanging ideas.

The same also can be said for your spouse and you who are 2 individuals but one flesh... Gen 2:24, Matt 19:5, Mark 10:8, Eph 5:31 when each of you have the legal authority to speak for the other...

You word can very definitely be with someone else.

The press secretary speaks what she has been authorized by the President to speak on his behalf. The words began in the mind of the President - He planned what would be said, what could be said so the words were with the President before the press secretary received and spoke on behalf of the President.

Any interpreter who is translating for foreign dignitaries has been given authority to speak on behalf of said dignitaries. What the dignitaries decide to say originates from each one who speaks - therefore their word is with them before they speak.

In my relationship with my husband, yes, he can speak for me but usually he consults me first and what he says will echo the words I have authorized him to say --- the same goes for me when speaking for him.

My words originate in my mind, my thoughts then I speak, so my words are with me.
I would think that everyone's words are with them before they are said ........ although sometimes we do speak before we think which more often than not doesn't end very well!

 

[JesusFan]

The Father became a human being? You aren't Trinitarian are you because they do not believe the Father became a human being. The Father stayed in heaven while the Son came to earth ---- I know, I would be confused too!

The Second person of the trinity assumed Human flesh, per Philippians Chapter 2

 

[FreeInChrist]

The press secretary speaks what she has been authorized by the President to speak on his behalf. The words began in the mind of the President - He planned what would be said, what could be said so the words were with the President before the press secretary received and spoke on behalf of the President.

Any interpreter who is translating for foreign dignitaries has been given authority to speak on behalf of said dignitaries. What the dignitaries decide to say originates from each one who speaks - therefore their word is with them before they speak.

In my relationship with my husband, yes, he can speak for me but usually he consults me first and what he says will echo the words I have authorized him to say --- the same goes for me when speaking for him.

And nowhere have you read that the Word spoke on His own. He of the same essence as the Father probably had the instructions on what to say. You cannot prove it was not that way.

My words originate in my mind, my thoughts then I speak, so my words are with me.
I would think that everyone's words are with them before they are said ........ although sometimes we do speak before we think which more often than not doesn't end very well!

 

[amazing grace]

And nowhere have you read that the Word spoke on His own. He of the same essence as the Father probably had the instructions on what to say. You cannot prove it was not that way.

Aww come on ---- where on earth did I say the 'word spoke on his own'? Please show me where you got that from what I said - I really would like to know. Thanks.

Jesus spoke what God His Father commanded him to speak -- just like God said of him to Moses --- I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. [Deut. 18] Jesus spoke in the authority of God His Father.

 

[Runningman]

I doubt that I have contradicted RM with what I have said....... instead of an accusation toward me ask him.

cc: @Runningman

He's conflating nature (think fruits of the holy spirit) which are things Jesus has with attributes (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) which are things Jesus doesn't have. No contradiction.

 

[Runningman]

Our flesh will die, the divine nature will not.
Aren't we still in flesh? or not?
In the New Jerusalem there be no longer death and etc as for these things have passed away.
Nothing unclean, no unrighteousness, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Rev 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Do you believe after resurrection people get their body back permanently?

 

[Capbook]

No, Jesus is speaking to a specific audience at John 5:37 - these Jews Jesus was speaking to were ones who were making accusations against him; ones who did not believe he was the Messiah - IOW unbelievers. Unbelievers do not hear the voice of God.

If referred to specific audience "anytime" wouldn't be the wording of the Bible text. anyway you can revised the wordings to your suit you preconceived belief to "your time" or "this time.
But the word "anytime" with Strong#G4455, in Greek ""πώποτε pōpote" Bible lexicon defined it as means - ever, anytime.

The only way to exit the Bible truth, maybe is to belittle Bible lexicons or confirm that you yourself heard the voice of the Father.

John 5:37 "And the FatherG3962 who sentG3992 Me, R1He has testifiedG3140 of Me. You have neitherG3777 heardG191 His voiceG5456 at anyG4455 timeG4455 norG3777 seenG3708 His formG1491b.

G4455
πώποτε pōpote
Thayer Definition:
1) ever, at any time
Part of Speech: adverb

God gave his Son to die for our sins - a human being, a man born of a woman.
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.........and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. ...... [Romans 3:21,22,24.25] Jesus Christ DIED for your sins and mine - for the sins of the world.

Yes, Jesus was put to death in the flesh but the God's nature of the Word did not. The bloodless Word that is God need to be human to shed blood for us to save mankind in faith.

Yes, the Byzantine Manuscripts came LATER which is when the ending of Eph. 3:9 appeared. I didn't say that any scripture contradicts another.

Textual critics compare ALL text, all found manuscripts - it is not just certain Bible translations.

As for the above subject ...... I will probably not respond again because it is just getting VERY repetitive.

Agree.

 

[Capbook]

The carpenters, the brick layers, the sheet rock people ----- the "agents" used in building the house brought the plan Peter had in mind, in his foreknowledge written out as a blueprint into a reality.

Then who do the reality?

Yes, it is not a direct address, it is not calling the word GOD but is stressing the quality of "what God was, the word was".
Who made a revision to John 1:1c? Correct, you just explained that the emphatic position stresses its quality - 'God' is used in a qualitative sense. Also stated above which I bolded: 'the lack of the article tells us that the Word is not the Father, aka God ---- Remember the Father is the only true God.

That paragraph seems to be trying to separate 'God' from the 'Father' so that John 1:14 doesn't have the 'Father' becoming flesh! Any trick will help right!

Good point.

Which is why John 1:18 is ambiguous as evidenced in the different translations. If God is an immortal eternal being - HE WAS NOT BEGOTTEN. ---- brought into existence ---- HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN!

If we look what "begotten" means in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament through Bible lexicon definitions, we will find that the word "begotten" in Psa 2:7, with Strong#H3205, in Hebrew "ילד yâlad" BDB defined it as means - to be born, beget, to beget, of child birth, to beget a child and etc.

And "begotten' in John 1:18, with Strong#G3439, in Greek "μονογενής monogenēs" means as - only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, etc.

We can now see the difference, in the OT as "to be born" (future) in the NT as "only born, unique, peculiar to generation (present)

Thus, the bloodless Word that was God, need to became human/flesh to shed blood for mankind's salvation in faith.
The uncreated Word God's nature never ceased as God, through His prerogative, emptied His form of God and take the likeness of man to finished the plan of salvation.

Psa 2:7 "I will surelyH3588 tellH5608 of the N1decreeH2706 of the LORDH3068: He saidH559 to Me, 'You are R1My SonH1121, TodayH3117 I have begottenH3205 You.

H3205
ילד yâlad
BDB Definition:
1) to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to bear, bring forth
1a1a) of child birth
1a1b) of distress (simile)
1a1c) of wicked (behaviour)
1a2) to beget
1b) (Niphal) to be born
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cause or help to bring forth
1c2) to assist or tend as a midwife
1c3) midwife (participle)
1d) (Pual) to be born
1e) (Hiphil)
1e1) to beget (a child)
1e2) to bear (figuratively - of wicked bringing forth iniquity)

Joh 1:18 R1NoG3762 oneG3762 has seenG3708 GodG2316 at anyG4455 timeG4455; R2the onlyG3439 begottenG3439 GodG2316 who is R3in the bosomG2859 of the FatherG3962, R4He has explainedG1834 Him.

G3439
μονογενής monogenēs
9x: only-begotten, only-born, Luk_7:12; Luk_8:42; Luk_9:38; Heb_11:17; only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, Jhn_1:14; Jhn_1:18; Jhn_3:16; Jhn_3:18; 1Jn_4:9.

 

[Capbook]

Do you believe after resurrection people get their body back permanently?

Yes, but as glorified body, transformed into perfected, immortal, and imperishable physical body the believers will receive at the resurrection, modeled after Jesus Christ's resurrected body. It is a tangible yet, freed from sin, decay, sickness, limitations, and death.

Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
Php 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

 

[amazing grace]

If referred to specific audience "anytime" wouldn't be the wording of the Bible text. anyway you can revised the wordings to your suit you preconceived belief to "your time" or "this time.
But the word "anytime" with Strong#G4455, in Greek ""πώποτε pōpote" Bible lexicon defined it as means - ever, anytime.

The only way to exit the Bible truth, maybe is to belittle Bible lexicons or confirm that you yourself heard the voice of the Father.

John 5:37 "And the FatherG3962 who sentG3992 Me, R1He has testifiedG3140 of Me. You have neitherG3777 heardG191 His voiceG5456 at anyG4455 timeG4455 norG3777 seenG3708 His formG1491b.

G4455
πώποτε pōpote
Thayer Definition:
1) ever, at any time
Part of Speech: adverb

Thanks.

Yes, Jesus was put to death in the flesh but the God's nature of the Word did not. The bloodless Word that is God need to be human to shed blood for us to save mankind in faith.

Jesus was 'flesh' - Jesus was fully human. Jesus died for your sins - he was buried and in the grave three days and three nights - The Word was not God and the Word is not God. Jesus truly embodied who God was.

Agree.

 

[amazing grace]

Then who do the reality?

God has the blueprint ...... He created according to that blueprint with His Son and the redemption of mankind foremost in His mind sending out agents to accomplish His purposes. Peter made a blueprint and gave the blueprint to his architect and builders --- the building was carried out by Peter's agents yet it was Peter's blueprint that made the house.

Good point.

If we look what "begotten" means in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament through Bible lexicon definitions, we will find that the word "begotten" in Psa 2:7, with Strong#H3205, in Hebrew "ילד yâlad" BDB defined it as means - to be born, beget, to beget, of child birth, to beget a child and etc.

And "begotten' in John 1:18, with Strong#G3439, in Greek "μονογενής monogenēs" means as - only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, etc.

We can now see the difference, in the OT as "to be born" (future) in the NT as "only born, unique, peculiar to generation (present)

Thus, the bloodless Word that was God, need to became human/flesh to shed blood for mankind's salvation in faith.
The uncreated Word God's nature never ceased as God, through His prerogative, emptied His form of God and take the likeness of man to finished the plan of salvation.

Psa 2:7 "I will surelyH3588 tellH5608 of the N1decreeH2706 of the LORDH3068: He saidH559 to Me, 'You are R1My SonH1121, TodayH3117 I have begottenH3205 You.

H3205
ילד yâlad
BDB Definition:
1) to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to bear, bring forth
1a1a) of child birth
1a1b) of distress (simile)
1a1c) of wicked (behaviour)
1a2) to beget
1b) (Niphal) to be born
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to cause or help to bring forth
1c2) to assist or tend as a midwife
1c3) midwife (participle)
1d) (Pual) to be born
1e) (Hiphil)
1e1) to beget (a child)
1e2) to bear (figuratively - of wicked bringing forth iniquity)

Joh 1:18 R1NoG3762 oneG3762 has seenG3708 GodG2316 at anyG4455 timeG4455; R2the onlyG3439 begottenG3439 GodG2316 who is R3in the bosomG2859 of the FatherG3962, R4He has explainedG1834 Him.

G3439
μονογενής monogenēs
9x: only-begotten, only-born, Luk_7:12; Luk_8:42; Luk_9:38; Heb_11:17; only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation, unique, Jhn_1:14; Jhn_1:18; Jhn_3:16; Jhn_3:18; 1Jn_4:9.

It's really no need to go through these definitions --- believe me I have looked at these plenty of times.
God was not begotten in any manner. God has always been.
If God is the Father and the Father is the only true God then how can God be in the bosom of God?
John 1:18 refers to Jesus Christ the only Son from the Father...... the only begotten Son from the Father. Jesus was actually THE SON OF GOD.

Luke 1:35 ---- And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God......" (therefore - for precisely this reason, the child will be called the Son of God) Mary did conceive and give birth to a son --- God was actually his Father.

 

[synergy]

He's conflating nature (think fruits of the holy spirit) which are things Jesus has with attributes (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) which are things Jesus doesn't have. No contradiction.

I don't know where you get your misinformation from but Scripture explicitly ascribes omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence to Jesus in ways that belong to God alone. Jesus demonstrates omniscience by knowing all things internally and exhaustively. He knows people’s thoughts (John 2:24–25), foretells future free actions (John 13:11, 18–19), and is confessed as knowing “all things” (John 21:17); He exercises omnipotence by performing divine works proper to God, including creating and sustaining all things (“all things were made through Him… and in Him all things hold together,” John 1:3; Colossians 1:16–17), forgiving sins by His own authority (Mark 2:5–12), and possessing “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18); and He claims omnipresence by promising His continual presence with all believers everywhere (“I am with you always, to the end of the age,” Matthew 28:20), declaring His presence wherever believers gather (“where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them,” Matthew 18:20), and being identified with the divine title “I AM” (John 8:58), which in Scripture denotes God’s eternal, unbounded existence (Exodus 3:14). Together, these texts show that Jesus personally possesses the incommunicable attributes (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) of God.

 

[Capbook]

Thanks.

Jesus was 'flesh' - Jesus was fully human. Jesus died for your sins - he was buried and in the grave three days and three nights - The Word was not God and the Word is not God. Jesus truly embodied who God was.

Again, we could revise what is clearly stated, just to suit our preconceived belief, but if nothing to add the truth is "and the Word was God."

 

[Capbook]

It's really no need to go through these definitions --- believe me I have looked at these plenty of times.
God was not begotten in any manner. God has always been.
If God is the Father and the Father is the only true God then how can God be in the bosom of God?
John 1:18 refers to Jesus Christ the only Son from the Father...... the only begotten Son from the Father. Jesus was actually THE SON OF GOD.

God is not the personal name of the Father, it is His divine nature or state or nature as God. (Rom 1:20, Acts 17:29)
As for me, the Father and the Son are one in the nature of God though distinct in persons.
Just like you and your son are one and the same in human nature.

Luke 1:35 ---- And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God......" (therefore - for precisely this reason, the child will be called the Son of God) Mary did conceive and give birth to a son --- God was actually his Father.

Yes, that's why Jesus also acknowledged that He is the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God."(Mat 26:63,64)
If we abide our understanding to the Law of Nature, we will know that Jesus was man and God.

 

[amazing grace]

God is not the personal name of the Father, it is His divine nature or state or nature as God. (Rom 1:20, Acts 17:29)
As for me, the Father and the Son are one in the nature of God though distinct in persons.
Just like you and your son are one and the same in human nature.

Yes, that's why Jesus also acknowledged that He is the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God."(Mat 26:63,64)
If we abide our understanding to the Law of Nature, we will know that Jesus was man and God.

God IS THE FATHER - THE GOD AND FATHER or JESUS CHRIST - Our Father and Jesus' Father; our God and Jesus' God.

My son is a human being because of the act of reproduction between two human beings.
Jesus is a human being. He came from a human being not through the act of reproduction between God and Mary - Jesus was conceived through a miraculous creative act of God.

Laws of nature? More like a law by itself - a hybrid being - a being from two different species.

 

[Capbook]

God IS THE FATHER - THE GOD AND FATHER or JESUS CHRIST - Our Father and Jesus' Father; our God and Jesus' God.

My son is a human being because of the act of reproduction between two human beings.
Jesus is a human being. He came from a human being not through the act of reproduction between God and Mary - Jesus was conceived through a miraculous creative act of God.

Laws of nature? More like a law by itself - a hybrid being - a being from two different species.

Yes, a hybrid being, 100% human as "Son of Man" by Mary, and 100% God as "Son of God" by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.