civic
Active Member
Yes, Yes, No.
The Trinity lacks any Biblical support
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Active Member
You don't have any evidence from the Bible about that.Yes, Yes, No.
amazing grace
Active Member
Your last statement is gold!!! --- the term 'plural God' would be offensive for ANY son of Israel to hear!
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Indeed, my brother, no Jew, past or present, would agree in that the Torah teaches a plural God. Worshiping a personal Single-Minded God is the foundation of the religion of a Jew… the foundation of the Shema Israel.Yes, Yes, No.
When asked by a Jew scribe which was the most important comandmen of all, Jesus, a Jew, started with the Shema, Israel. The scribe confirmed His words and then Jesus validated back the scribe’s understanding.
Let me know if you agree or disagree with any of my statements and why.
I will possibly treat the idea of a plural God simply as recognition that two distinct divine ones as Yahweh is not just something after Christ's death and resurrection.
You are quite limited in your knowledge to say that. A Jewish scholar wrote on the Two Powers of God controversy around the first century (be that BC and/or AD). They like those in the era of Christ encountered passages like Gen 15:1-5 where the Angel of the Lord spoke and later was described as Yahweh speaking. A similar situation arises in the burning bush and Moses. So, do not misrepresent history. I know this finding is unusual but now it is yours to search out.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, and Jesus is a Jew. Jews have been staunchly and strictly monotheistic about a one person God for thousands of years. They are correct about this. They often reject Jesus as the Messiah since the trinitarians told them that he is god, though, which is an automatic red flag. So most of them just think of Christianity as heresy because they incorrectly conflate it with trinitarianism. Most of them just haven't had a proper presentation of Christianity, but as a Unitarian Christian, I get along quite well with Jews since we have the same God.
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You are too forgetful. I have shared this before:
You are quite limited in your knowledge to say that. A Jewish scholar wrote on the Two Powers of God controversy around the first century (be that BC and/or AD). They like those in the era of Christ encountered passages like Gen 15:1-5 where the Angel of the Lord spoke and later was described as Yahweh speaking. A similar situation arises in the burning bush and Moses. So, do not misrepresent history. I know this finding is unusual but now it is yours to search out.
Runningman
Active Member
Zechariah 1 shows the angel of the Lord and the Lord are not the same being. There will always be one-off people on the fringe who don't represent the mainstream. What you're doing is tantamount to using Mormonism to represent trinitarianism with. We don't use the fringe to represent the majority. So why are you attempting to do that?
You try sharing passages where the Angel of the Lord is not as clearly shown as Yahweh and use that to discount the passages where it is obvious. That is deceitful.
Runningman
Active Member
Whenever an angel of the Lord says something for YHWH, it's inferred the angel is speaking a message as a messenger. Someone being their own messenger is nonsense, but that is what you are basically saying. Someone cannot be their own messenger because being a messenger necessitates giving a message for someone else.
Whenever someone, even appearing as the Angel of the Lord, is called Yahweh. We can assume this one has not mistakenly been called yahweh. Unitarians try too hard to dismiss the divinity of Christ.
dwight92070
Active Member
You said: Each person in the Trinity is distinct from the others and has a separate function. The Father formulates plans, the Son activates them, and the Holy Spirit completes them.The Trinity
The Bible clearly states that there is only one God, but it also speaks of God as three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
God’s triune personage is commonly called the Trinity. Each person in the Trinity is distinct from the others and has a separate function. The Father formulates plans, the Son activates them, and the Holy Spirit completes them.
All three persons are entirely and concurrently God. They are not parts of one God, three separate gods, or one God in three consecutive forms. God the Father did not create Jesus as a person and the Holy Spirit as a force.
Each person possesses identical attributes and the same essence of deity. They have all existed for eternity and are coequal in power, authority, knowledge, ability, etc. We can pray to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit.
The Father
God the Father is a spirit who resides in heaven, a place he created for himself, his loyal angels, and us.
He designed the world along with all its inhabitants. He gave Adam and Eve, the first humans, authority over the earth and unlimited freedom to do whatever they could conceive—with one exception.
After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, God the Father established a salvation plan for humanity and presided over its execution.
The Son
Jesus is God the Son. He is concurrently fully human and fully divine. He was the Father’s agent at creation. He commanded the world to exist.
Jesus left heaven about twenty centuries ago to live on earth for over thirty years. While here, he revealed what the Father is like; validated, explained, and elaborated upon the Old Testament; and paid the penalty for sin through his death.
Forty days after his resurrection, Jesus ascended to heaven. He now pleads our case before the Father in the salvation process.
Someday Jesus will physically return to earth to collect his reborn believers and escort them to heaven. Then he will rule the world for 1,000 years before bringing heaven to earth.
The Holy Spirit
God, the Holy Spirit, is distinct from the spirit that is God the Father.
The Holy Spirit does not inhabit nature—trees, rocks, animals, etc.—but he is transcendentally active everywhere. He brought order to creation and now completes the Father’s earthly initiatives.
In the salvation process, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and makes sure that we understand enough about God’s salvation plan to choose to be reborn spiritually. He indwells us after we make this decision, which secures our eternal life.
As we walk in harmony with God, the Holy Spirit strengthens our stamina, intensifies our noble desires, reinforces our self-discipline, and empowers us directly as needed.
He manifests in us the divine attributes that enable us to live contentedly in a troubled world. This manifestation is called the fruit of the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit illuminates the truths that apply to our lives as we study the Bible. Amid affliction, he provides guidance, direction, comfort, strength, and hope. When we cannot pray, he intercedes with God the Father on our behalf.
The Holy Spirit bestows spiritual gifts that equip us for ministry. He works through us to inform unbelievers about God’s salvation plan and to encourage other believers.
Read More About Jesus
Jesus is unique among the founders of the other major religions. There is a plausible explanation for his virgin birth. There is ample evidence supporting hisresurrection. His attributes are described throughout the Bible.
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Yes I see the distinction, but I also see that they are the same. Isaiah called the Son "Mighty God, Everlasting Father". Paul said, "Now the Lord (this could be either the Father or the Son) IS the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." So the Father IS the Spirit and the Son IS the Spirit"
You said: "The Father formulates plans, the Son activates them, and the Holy Spirit completes them."
Could you please quote Scripture that backs this up?
Duane
Active Member
The whole bible is compiled of our tribune God working in unison.
In Christian theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have distinct roles within the Godhead, and this relationship is often seen as an icon for the Christian family
. The Father is understood as the creator and source, the Son (Jesus Christ) is the mediator who accomplishes redemption, and the Holy Spirit is the presence who empowers and guides believers. This model is not one of inferiority, but of distinct functions performed in perfect unity.
Roles within the Trinity
- The Father: The source of creation and redemption. He initiates and sends the Son and the Spirit.
- The Son: The mediator who was obedient to the Father and accomplished redemption through his life, death, and resurrection.
- The Holy Spirit: The one who applies God's work to believers, acting as a comforter, guide, and empowering presence. The Spirit is often described as the bond of love between the Father and the Son.
Application to the family
- The Father: Represents the role of the creator, provider, and the one who initiates and guides the family, much like the Father is the ultimate source in the Trinity.
- The Son: Reflects the role of the mediator, sacrificing for others, and being the one who accomplishes the work of reconciliation and salvation within the family, mirroring Jesus's role.
- The Holy Spirit: Symbolizes the presence and bond that holds the family together, guiding, comforting, and empowering each member to live in a loving and unified relationship with one another and with God.
Runningman
Active Member
God's messengers are not God. That is totally contrary to Scripture.
Runningman, who do you think Jacob seen face to face?
The Father or someone that is also God.
Gen 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."
Runningman
Active Member
Scripture teaches Jacob wrestled with an angel, not God Almighty. Unless you're trying to be funny and claim God lost a wrestling match with a human,.
Hosea 12
3In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel,
and in his vigor he wrestled with God.
4Yes, he struggled with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought His favor;
he found Him at Bethel
and spoke with Him there —
wow. you find another passage showing the angel is God -- he wrestled with God (v3) and in that struggle he prevailed.
Runningman
Active Member
No Jacob didn't have a wrestling match with God and win. I would look at it in the sense of possibly wrestling with God because Jacob challenged God's messenger and that is like challenging God, but the actual wrestling match, if literal, is said to have been with an angel. Kinda like how you do when you try to debunk everything the Bible says. You are not just having a debate with people, you are essentially calling God a liar on every front based off of what I have seen you say.
that is why the angel of the Lord is Yahweh of the Trinity. You are denying the testimony of scripture in order to support your belief system. I'm not sure how you can read it differently that the Angel being both distinct and the same as God in that passage.
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