The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[FreeInChrist]

You are correct, the word "beginning" does not always indicate Creation. But the parallels between John 1 and Gen 1 are irrefutable. Gen 1 starts with God creating all of what was made "in the Beginning". John 1 starts with the Word, which is God, creating everything that was made "in the Beginning". This makes them the same "Beginning", the beginning which included Creation.

You do know that this well could read that you are suggesting that God YHWH Had his beginning by this comparison.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... ergo God and the Word began at the same point.....

That is a good suggestion point for the YEC folks.... If the creator is only 6000 plus years old thus the earth will be the same.

I do indeed. And it does not mean spoken words.
Logos (λόγος) in Greek fundamentally means "word," "speech," "reason," or "principle". It transcends mere vocabulary to represent the divine, universal order governing the cosmos in philosophy

There is no difference.
Theos and Theon are different grammatical cases of the same Greek noun for "God," not different words. Theos is the nominative form (subject), while Theon is the accusative form (direct object or object of a preposition). Their usage is dictated by sentence structure, not by a difference in deity or essence.

Word
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

with
πρὸς (pros)
Preposition
Strong's 4314: To, towards, with. A strengthened form of pro; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. Toward.

God,
Θεόν (Theon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Word
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

God.
Θεὸς (Theos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

 

[civic]

That is a good suggestion point for the YEC folks.... If the creator is only 6000 plus years old thus the earth will be the same.

Did you mean creation above or Creator ?

 

[Runningman]

You are correct, the word "beginning" does not always indicate Creation. But the parallels between John 1 and Gen 1 are irrefutable. Gen 1 starts with God creating all of what was made "in the Beginning". John 1 starts with the Word, which is God, creating everything that was made "in the Beginning". This makes them the same "Beginning", the beginning which included Creation.

Ok so where did anyone else say in the beginning was the Word and described it as a person?

I do indeed. And it does not mean spoken words.
Logos (λόγος) in Greek fundamentally means "word," "speech," "reason," or "principle". It transcends mere vocabulary to represent the divine, universal order governing the cosmos in philosophy

Yes it means spoken words. You seem to have selective blindness.

​

3056. logos ►​

​

​

​

Lexical Summary logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine Original Word: λόγος Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: logos Pronunciation: LO-gos Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os) KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work NASB: word, words, statement, message, speech, account, matter Word Origin: [from G3004 (λέγω - said)] 1. something said (including the thought) 2. (by implication) a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive 3. (by extension) a computation 4. (specially, with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ)​

​

There is no difference.
Theos and Theon are different grammatical cases of the same Greek noun for "God," not different words. Theos is the nominative form (subject), while Theon is the accusative form (direct object or object of a preposition). Their usage is dictated by sentence structure, not by a difference in deity or essence.

Word
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

with
πρὸς (pros)
Preposition
Strong's 4314: To, towards, with. A strengthened form of pro; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. Toward.

God,
Θεόν (Theon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

the
ὁ (ho)
Article - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

Word
Λόγος (Logos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 3056: From lego; something said; by implication, a topic, also reasoning or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, the Divine Expression.

was
ἦν (ēn)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

God.
Θεὸς (Theos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

Yes there is a difference. You must be quoting from something that is attempting to hide this fact. This is what the original Greek sentence states in John 1:1. Highlighted in red below is Ton Theon, The God, with simply theos which is not The God. Your version excludes this fact, probably because truth injected into the veins of the trinity is a trinity destroyer.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
In [the] beginning was the word, and the Word was with The God, and god was the word.

This means the Word isn't The God, therefore the Word is not God in the sense you are claiming. This merrily explains why the Bible is bankrupt regarding any references to what your theology imposes in your niche Bible translations.

 

[Doug Brents]

You do know that this well could read that you are suggesting that God YHWH Had his beginning by this comparison.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... ergo God and the Word began at the same point.....

Heavy sigh....
No. It is VERY clear from the context that God was not made (it is impossible for something to make itself), and that God preexisted all Creation. Both the Father and the Son preexisted Creation.

That is a good suggestion point for the YEC folks.... If the creator is only 6000 plus years old thus the earth will be the same.

The Creator is eternal (having no beginning and no end). The creation is indeed only 6000 (5925 by my count) years old.

 

[amazing grace]

All of this is completely irrelevant.

That is disproved by Matt 2:15. Matthew is quoting Hos 11:1, and there is no way that Hosea, or his immediate audience, would have suspected that this was a prophecy about the coming Christ. EVERYONE who read this up until Matthew wrote his Gospel saw Hos 11:1 as a look back at the Exodus, and the Jewish nation coming out of Egypt. But Matthew gave the verse a whole new meaning, and an understanding that this was a prophecy of the coming Christ.

I forgot how you break up one complete thought interrupting the context of a person's meaning....it is aggravating as h***.
The doctrine of the Trinity not being known to the author of John and John's audience is disproved by Matthew 2:15?

Matthew 2:15 is quoting Hosea 11:1 but Hosea 11:1 was not originally a prophecy about Jesus, i.e. a Messianic prophecy.
IOW - Jesus did not stay in Egypt here in Matthew to fulfill Hosea 11:1. Hosea 11:1 is talking about God's children, drawing from Exodus 4:22 - Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son......the nation of Israel, God's firstborn son, the children of God were called out of Egypt at the Exodus, and they were a type of Christ who was called out of Egypt in Matthew. Jesus stayed in Egypt until the death of Herod and came back to Nazareth which just happened to give a second fulfillment to the words of Hosea 11:1. No doctrine of the Trinity here either and it wasn't a prophecy of the coming Messiah.

There is NO correlation between wisdom and the Word. As you have been shown, wisdom was created, but the Word is eternal. Wisdom is, as you have pointed out, female. But the Word, and God, are male. Wisdom is personified, but the Word is a person (Jesus).

Yes, there is but I can't make you see it.
yes, the word is personified as a male - 'he' (John 1:3) not because the word is an actual living being that is a male .... yes, wisdom is personified as a 'she' not because wisdom is an actual living being that is a female!!! but according to being grammatically correct. In English we do not gender our nouns but in Greek and Hebrew grammar nouns are gendered so every object, concept, and animate being is assigned a gender, and the adjectives, the verbs, and the pronouns must agree with the noun's gender. Personification is a literary figure of speech that gives human qualities, emotions, actions, or characteristics to inanimate objects, animals or abstract ideas.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ok so where did anyone else say in the beginning was the Word and described it as a person?

It doesn't matter that they did or didn't. As we have already established, each and every word in Scripture (and John's writings are Scripture) has meaning and purpose. There is not a single word in the original texts, the Hebrew or the Greek, that can be ignored or excused.

Yes it means spoken words. You seem to have selective blindness.

Lexical Summary logos: Word, speech, message, account, reason, doctrine Original Word: λόγος Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: logos Pronunciation: LO-gos Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os) KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work NASB: word, words, statement, message, speech, account, matter Word Origin: [from G3004 (λέγω - said)] 1. something said (including the thought) 2. (by implication) a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive 3. (by extension) a computation 4. (specially, with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ)​

Logos includes the concept of both the spoken word and the reasoning power behind the spoken word, as well as the principle behind the reasoning. And all of this is what was with God, and was God, and through which everything was created. And it (being God) took on flesh (becoming a man) that we know as Jesus.

Yes there is a difference. You must be quoting from something that is attempting to hide this fact. This is what the original Greek sentence states in John 1:1. Highlighted in red below is Ton Theon, The God, with simply theos which is not The God. Your version excludes this secret, probably because truth injected into the veins of the trinity is a trinity destroyer.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
In [the] beginning was the word, and the Word was with The God, and god was the word.

This means the Word isn't The God, therefore the Word is not God in the sense you are claiming. This merrily explains why the Bible is bankrupt regarding any references to what you're theology imposes in your niche Bible translations.

There are no articles in Greek. The word "the" does not exist in Greek. And as noted, theos and theon have the exact same meaning, one is used when it is the subject and the other when it is the object.

An example:
Cow dog over jumped.

In English this sentence is meaningless, because word order is very important in English writing.
But in Greek. word order is meaningless. It is the word form that gives the meaning.
So in Greek the sentence could be written in any order, but the form of the words "dog" and "cow" would be changed to show us which is the subject (doing the jumping) and which is the object (over which is jumped).

 

[Doug Brents]

The doctrine of the Trinity not being known to the author of John and John's audience is disproved by Matthew 2:15?

Matthew 2:15 is quoting Hosea 11:1 but Hosea 11:1 was not originally a prophecy about Jesus, i.e. a Messianic prophecy.
IOW - Jesus did not stay in Egypt here in Matthew to fulfill Hosea 11:1. Hosea 11:1 is talking about God's children, drawing from Exodus 4:22 - Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son......the nation of Israel, God's firstborn son, the children of God were called out of Egypt at the Exodus, and they were a type of Christ who was called out of Egypt in Matthew. Jesus stayed in Egypt until the death of Herod and came back to Nazareth which just happened to give a second fulfillment to the words of Hosea 11:1. No doctrine of the Trinity here either and it wasn't a prophecy of the coming Messiah.

Matthew says that Hos 11:1 was a prophecy about the Christ.
"...this happened so that what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: 'Out of Egypt I called My Son.'"
Not that it had already been fulfilled and was fulfilled in another way in the Christ. No, it was fulfilled in the Christ because that is who it was talking about in the first place, but the people who first heard it misunderstood it, thinking that it referred to the Exodus.

Yes, there is but I can't make you see it.
yes, the word is personified as a male - 'he' (John 1:3) not because the word is an actual living being that is a male .... yes, wisdom is personified as a 'she' not because wisdom is an actual living being that is a female!!! but according to being grammatically correct. In English we do not gender our nouns but in Greek and Hebrew grammar nouns are gendered so every object, concept, and animate being is assigned a gender, and the adjectives, the verbs, and the pronouns must agree with the noun's gender. Personification is a literary figure of speech that gives human qualities, emotions, actions, or characteristics to inanimate objects, animals or abstract ideas.

Wisdom was personified, the Word was a person. There is a world of difference there.

Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom took on flesh and became a human.
Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom is God.
Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom preexisted Creation?
Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom is eternal?

You cannot show any of these about wisdom, but I can and have shown all of these about the Word (Jesus).

 

[FreeInChrist]

Heavy sigh....
No. It is VERY clear from the context that God was not made (it is impossible for something to make itself), and that God preexisted all Creation. Both the Father and the Son preexisted Creation.

The Creator is eternal (having no beginning and no end). The creation is indeed only 6000 (5925 by my count) years old.

Does you idea of creation cover only our earth and life here or all of the gallaxies and solar systems far beyond what even telescopes can see?

 

[Runningman]

It doesn't matter that they did or didn't. As we have already established, each and every word in Scripture (and John's writings are Scripture) has meaning and purpose. There is not a single word in the original texts, the Hebrew or the Greek, that can be ignored or excused.

If that doesn't matter than John 1:1 doesn't matter. You should not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because the entire Bible doesn't support your niche Logos Theology that you're attempting to rule over the entire Bible with. The minority statements never overrule the majority statements in Scripture. In the Bible, beginning in Genesis, God a singular person, created using spoke words, God is not a they or them.

Logos includes the concept of both the spoken word and the reasoning power behind the spoken word, as well as the principle behind the reasoning. And all of this is what was with God, and was God, and through which everything was created. And it (being God) took on flesh (becoming a man) that we know as Jesus.

So Logos is spoken words after all, even though you originally said it wasn't. Hence the Word is personified in your translation. There is no precedent that would show otherwise.

There are no articles in Greek. The word "the" does not exist in Greek. And as noted, theos and theon have the exact same meaning, one is used when it is the subject and the other when it is the object.

An example:
Cow dog over jumped.

In English this sentence is meaningless, because word order is very important in English writing.
But in Greek. word order is meaningless. It is the word form that gives the meaning.
So in Greek the sentence could be written in any order, but the form of the words "dog" and "cow" would be changed to show us which is the subject (doing the jumping) and which is the object (over which is jumped).

Yes there are articles in Greek. The definite article τὸν functions the same way as the word The does in English. There are thousands of examples of this all over the LXX and NT. Not sure what kind of argument you think you can make against that.

 

[amazing grace]

Matthew says that Hos 11:1 was a prophecy about the Christ.
"...this happened so that what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: 'Out of Egypt I called My Son.'"
Not that it had already been fulfilled and was fulfilled in another way in the Christ. No, it was fulfilled in the Christ because that is who it was talking about in the first place, but the people who first heard it misunderstood it, thinking that it referred to the Exodus.

Hosea 11:1 states, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” Is this verse a Messianic prophecy?

The context of this verse speaks of the relationship the Lord had with the nation of Israel. The Lord loved Israel (Exodus 4:22-23) and rescued the people from slavery under Pharaoh, bringing them into the Promised Land. The analogy is that of God as the father and Israel as the child.

Jewish readers would have clearly understood this important statement. God’s supernatural power served as the basis of the nation’s freedom from Egypt and escape to a new land. The parallelism in the verse is Israel/child/son and loved/called. In both clauses, “I” (God) is the One initiating the action.

Matthew 2:13-15 provides further insight: “Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, ‘Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.’ And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’”

Matthew uses Hosea’s statement to show that the coming of the Messiah is an extension of the Lord’s love to His people. Matthew does not say that Hosea had Jesus in mind when Hosea 11:1 was originally written. Instead, Matthew says that the experience of Jesus matched what Hosea had written about Israel. Jesus was God’s Son, and He made a trip from Egypt to the land of Israel. Matthew was showing that Jesus completed what began with the exodus, connecting Jesus with the promise of Abraham and the leadership of Moses. The “calling” of God’s “son” (Israel) began in ages past and found its completion in the coming of Christ to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.

In summary, Hosea 11:1 is not a Messianic prophecy in the same way that prophecies such as Isaiah 9:6 are. Rather, it is a pictorial prophecy; that is, there are similarities in the Old Testament passage to a New Testament truth about Christ. This Old Testament “picture” of Christ is called a “type.” Matthew 2:15 can be seen as an analogy. Matthew is providing a connection between Jesus and God’s people of promise. As a Jew writing for primarily Jewish readers, Matthew found it important to point out many of the similarities between the nation of Israel and their Messiah, the One to fulfill the Prophets (Matthew 5:17). https://www.gotquestions.org/Hosea-11-1-Messianic.html

Wisdom was personified, the Word was a person. There is a world of difference there.

The 'word' wasn't a person 'in the beginning'; the 'word' - did not become flesh, i.e. embodied in flesh, a person until Jesus was conceived and born.

Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom took on flesh and became a human.

Well, I can't find a verse that says that nor can you find a verse that says God took on flesh but I can find examples of the Proverbs wife who embodies wisdom.........Blessed is the one who finds wisdom,......She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. [Prov. 3:13,15] - (the Proverbs wife) An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. [31:10]; The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; [Pro. 1:7] - (the Proverbs wife) but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised [31:30] I have counsel and sound wisdom; I have insight; I have strength. [Prov. 8:14]; (the Proverbs wife) She dresses herself with strength [31:17]; Strength and dignity are her clothing, 31:25], etc. The characteristics of wisdom are found in the Proverbs wife -- she embodies wisdom.

Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom is God.

I don't believe I said 'wisdom is God' - I believe I said wisdom is God's wisdom.

Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom preexisted Creation?

Was there ever a time God did not have wisdom?

Please show me where Scripture says that wisdom is eternal?

Is God eternal? Then his wisdom would also be eternal.

You cannot show any of these about wisdom, but I can and have shown all of these about the Word (Jesus).

Just as the Proverbs wife, being the embodiment wisdom - reflect God's wisdom in her characteristics so also does Jesus Christ, being the embodiment of the 'word' - reflect God's word, God's wisdom in his characteristics. Jesus Christ perfectly reflected the characteristics of who God is - loving, merciful, holy, forgiving, kind, gracious, etc.

 

[Doug Brents]

Does you idea of creation cover only our earth and life here or all of the gallaxies and solar systems far beyond what even telescopes can see?

Yes, all galaxies, solar systems, stars, etc. are part of the same Creation. I do not believe that there is any other life out there.

The heavens (first (where the birds fly) and second (the stars, "space", and everything outside of Earth's atmosphere) according to the Hebrew understanding) and the Earth are all part of the one Creation.

 

[Runningman]

Matthew says that Hos 11:1 was a prophecy about the Christ.
"...this happened so that what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: 'Out of Egypt I called My Son.'"
Not that it had already been fulfilled and was fulfilled in another way in the Christ. No, it was fulfilled in the Christ because that is who it was talking about in the first place, but the people who first heard it misunderstood it, thinking that it referred to the Exodus.

Did Israel pre-exist as God's son? If no, then the comparison to Jesus means that Jesus the Son didn't pre-exist either. You can't have it both ways. The bible must be interpreted consistently when concepts from different contexts are transferred.

 

[Doug Brents]

If that doesn't matter than John 1:1 doesn't matter. You should not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because the entire Bible doesn't support your niche Logos Theology that you're attempting to rule over the entire Bible with. The minority statements never overrule the majority statements in Scripture. In the Bible, beginning in Genesis, God a singular person, created using spoke words, God is not a they or them.

John 1:1 matters very much. You seem to think that just because something is not said in most places (thousands of places), that the one place it is mentioned should be ignored. Not so, at all. All Scripture is true at the same time. And if one place gives clarity that is not given in many other places (as long as it does not contradict the rest of Scripture) then that one place is giving a new perspective on that subject.

The deity of Jesus is not only stated in John 1:1, but is supported throughout the rest of Scripture. Just because God is One, and in most places is referred to in the singular, the fact that God is referred to in the plural even once is very significant, and cannot be overlooked.

So Logos is spoken words after all, even though you originally said it wasn't. Hence the Word is personified in your translation. There is no precedent that would show otherwise.

Logos is not ONLY spoken words. In the case of John 1, Logos is the creative, logical, principle of God.

Yes there are articles in Greek. The definite article τὸν functions the same way as the word The does in English. There are thousands of examples of this all over the LXX and NT. Not sure what kind of argument you think you can make against that.

Hmm. It appears that I was taught improperly. I was told that there are not articles in Greek. Thank you.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (En archē ēn ho logos)
καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon)
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (kai theos ēn ho logos)
Let me see if I get this correctly: Word for word from the above:
In the beginning was the (word, logic, principle),
and the Word was with the God
And God was the Word.

So the Word (Logos) is not only with God, but God is the Logos as well. Isn't that interesting.

 

[Doug Brents]

Did Israel pre-exist as God's son? If no, then the comparison to Jesus means that Jesus the Son didn't pre-exist either. You can't have it both ways. The bible must be interpreted consistently when concepts from different contexts are transferred.

Israel didn't create everything that was created either. So your comparison is not valid.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hosea 11:1 states, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.” Is this verse a Messianic prophecy?

Hosea didn't understand it to be, but today we know that it is one.

The context of this verse speaks of the relationship the Lord had with the nation of Israel. The Lord loved Israel (Exodus 4:22-23) and rescued the people from slavery under Pharaoh, bringing them into the Promised Land. The analogy is that of God as the father and Israel as the child.

Jewish readers would have clearly understood this important statement. God’s supernatural power served as the basis of the nation’s freedom from Egypt and escape to a new land. The parallelism in the verse is Israel/child/son and loved/called. In both clauses, “I” (God) is the One initiating the action.

Matthew 2:13-15 provides further insight: “Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, ‘Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.’ And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’”

Matthew uses Hosea’s statement to show that the coming of the Messiah is an extension of the Lord’s love to His people. Matthew does not say that Hosea had Jesus in mind when Hosea 11:1 was originally written. Instead, Matthew says that the experience of Jesus matched what Hosea had written about Israel. Jesus was God’s Son, and He made a trip from Egypt to the land of Israel. Matthew was showing that Jesus completed what began with the exodus, connecting Jesus with the promise of Abraham and the leadership of Moses. The “calling” of God’s “son” (Israel) began in ages past and found its completion in the coming of Christ to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.

All of this is correct as far as it goes. But it does not account for the fact that Scripture says it is a prophecy about Jesus.

In summary, Hosea 11:1 is not a Messianic prophecy in the same way that prophecies such as Isaiah 9:6 are. Rather, it is a pictorial prophecy; that is, there are similarities in the Old Testament passage to a New Testament truth about Christ. This Old Testament “picture” of Christ is called a “type.” Matthew 2:15 can be seen as an analogy. Matthew is providing a connection between Jesus and God’s people of promise. As a Jew writing for primarily Jewish readers, Matthew found it important to point out many of the similarities between the nation of Israel and their Messiah, the One to fulfill the Prophets (Matthew 5:17). https://www.gotquestions.org/Hosea-11-1-Messianic.html

Got Questions is so full of holes in there explanations that I wouldn't trust anything they say. They are not a trustworthy resource.

But aside from that, this whole argument of yours doesn't impact the point of my bringing up this prophecy. The point was that the understanding of the original text does not always impact how it is to be understood when it is quoted. We agree that the quote in Matthew is a reference to Jesus. But there is NO ONE reading the text from Hosea that would have associated that verse with Jesus before Jesus' birth. No one would have said, "This is a prophecy about the coming Messiah."

The 'word' wasn't a person 'in the beginning'; the 'word' - did not become flesh, i.e. embodied in flesh, a person until Jesus was conceived and born.

Are you saying the Father is not a person, just because He does not have flesh? Is that your understanding of what it takes to be a person: having flesh?

Well, I can't find a verse that says that nor can you find a verse that says God took on flesh but I can find examples of the Proverbs wife who embodies wisdom.........Blessed is the one who finds wisdom,......She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. [Prov. 3:13,15] - (the Proverbs wife) An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. [31:10]; The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; [Pro. 1:7] - (the Proverbs wife) but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised [31:30] I have counsel and sound wisdom; I have insight; I have strength. [Prov. 8:14]; (the Proverbs wife) She dresses herself with strength [31:17]; Strength and dignity are her clothing, 31:25], etc. The characteristics of wisdom are found in the Proverbs wife -- she embodies wisdom.

Sure a woman can embody wisdom, but does Scripture say that wisdom took on flesh and became a woman? No.
But Scripture does say that the Logos of God, that is God, took on flesh and became a man that we know as Jesus.

Was there ever a time God did not have wisdom?

Was wisdom created? Prov 8:22

Just as the Proverbs wife, being the embodiment wisdom - reflect God's wisdom in her characteristics so also does Jesus Christ, being the embodiment of the 'word' - reflect God's word, God's wisdom in his characteristics. Jesus Christ perfectly reflected the characteristics of who God is - loving, merciful, holy, forgiving, kind, gracious, etc.

I would totally agree with you, if it weren't for what Scripture says. Scripture says Jesus is the Logos of God, which was with God, and was God, in the Beginning when all things were made through Him.
Jesus said that He is one with the Father.
Jesus said that He is the "I AM" (which is God).
Jesus accepted worship and accepted being called God without correcting the worshiper or the person calling Him God.

 

[Runningman]

Israel didn't create everything that was created either. So your comparison is not valid.

And Jesus didn't create anything that was created either nor does the Bible say he did. See Hebrews 1:1,2 for proof that when God spoke in the past it wasn't through the Son. God speaking through the Son isn't something He did until these last days. In other words, when God spoke to create it wasn't with the one you call "Son" in your trinity. The "Son" in your trinity is not the Biblical Jesus.

Another example about Jesus is in John 6 when he compared himself to the manna from heaven that came down to earth. The manna didn't pre-exist in heaven did it? Did the manna incarnate?

 

[FreeInChrist]

John 1:1 matters very much. You seem to think that just because something is not said in most places (thousands of places), that the one place it is mentioned should be ignored. Not so, at all. All Scripture is true at the same time. And if one place gives clarity that is not given in many other places (as long as it does not contradict the rest of Scripture) then that one place is giving a new perspective on that subject.

The deity of Jesus is not only stated in John 1:1, but is supported throughout the rest of Scripture. Just because God is One, and in most places is referred to in the singular, the fact that God is referred to in the plural even once is very significant, and cannot be overlooked.

Logos is not ONLY spoken words. In the case of John 1, Logos is the creative, logical, principle of God.

Hmm. It appears that I was taught improperly. I was told that there are not articles in Greek. Thank you.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (En archē ēn ho logos)
καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (kai ho logos ēn pros ton theon)
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (kai theos ēn ho logos)
Let me see if I get this correctly: Word for word from the above:
In the beginning was the (word, logic, principle),
and the Word was with the God
And God was the Word.

So the Word (Logos) is not only with God, but God is the Logos as well. Isn't that interesting.

Not jumping it to hijack but yes interesting but notice the differences.

and the Word was with the God
And God was the Word.

I do not read this as the being one in the same because and the Word was with the God.
Uses... the which of course is τὸν Θεόν
(τόν • (tón) masculine accusative singular of ὁ (ho, "the")

and it finishes with
καὶ Θεὸς or "and" God.

Now notice the different spelling of Θεόν = ton Theon and Θεὸς = kai Theos

I submit these are not the same person.......!

Thanks to both of you this is something I had not caught until today........yippee

Carry on, Ill be quiet I promise

 

[Doug Brents]

And Jesus didn't create anything that was created either nor does the Bible say he did.

How many times must we go through this?
I am getting very tired of your forced ignorance and willful blindness.

See Hebrews 1:1,2 for proof that when God spoke in the past it wasn't through the Son. God speaking through the Son isn't something He did until these last days. In other words, when God spoke to create it wasn't with the one you call "Son" in your trinity. The "Son" in your trinity is not the Biblical Jesus.

Jesus, the Son of God, is the incarnate Logos of God, which is God. This makes them one and the same.

Another example about Jesus is in John 6 when he compared himself to the manna from heaven that came down to earth. The manna didn't pre-exist in heaven did it? Did the manna incarnate?

Jesus is like the manna from Heaven in that He came from Heaven, and feeds us and sustains us.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not jumping it to hijack but yes interesting but notice the differences.

and the Word was with the God
And God was the Word.

I do not read this as the being one in the same because and the Word was with the God.
Uses... the which of course is τὸν Θεόν
(τόν • (tón) masculine accusative singular of ὁ (ho, "the")

and it finishes with
καὶ Θεὸς or "and" God.

Now notice the different spelling of Θεόν = ton Theon and Θεὸς = kai Theos

I submit these are not the same person.......!

Thanks to both of you this is something I had not caught until today........yippeeView attachment 2864

The Son and the Father are not the same person. But they are the same God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Son and the Father are not the same person. But they are the same God.

Thats what I said cause the Greek tells it they are not one person