The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Runningman]

I am sure all of you trinitarians have noticed by now, but the Trinity doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

Did you ever notice how you all always begin with a presumption of a trinity god, you list all of your reasons why, but it always circles back to the beginning, all the way to square one, when asked where there is a working example of the trinity in action or someone at least defining the God of the Bible as three, a they, or them? Yet no one in all of history has been able to find that.

Consider the following common arguments produced by trinitarians, just to name a few:
"Jesus is a God-Man"
"Jesus is 100% man and 100% God"
"Jesus resurrected himself"
"Jesus pre-existed his birth"
"Jesus is the Word"
"God incarnated"

Yet the Bible doesn't say any of those things. There is no example of anyone saying Jesus is a God-Man, no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself or anyone saying he did, no examples of him pre-existing in the Old Testament either saying or doing anything. he was never called the Word, and the Bible never says Jesus incarnated.

Everything the trinitarian says begs the question: Why does the Bible never say what you say???

So what happened to all of these trinitarian people? What are they seeing that God, Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and the early church didn't even talk about?

Can any one answer one or more of these questions:

Where in the Bible does anyone ever define God as three persons in one God?​

​

Trinitarians claim the Trinity is central to Christianity. Why is it that there is not one example of it being taught to anyone in Acts or elsewhere in the New Testament? Why not the Old Testament?​

​

Why do the inspired writers everywhere speak of God like a single person, i,e,. He, Him, His, but never as a they or them?​

​

Why does terminology, or something similar, that says "Jesus is 100% God and 100% man" never appear in the Bible?​

​

Why did no one say Jesus resurrected himself after he died?​

​

If Jesus pre-existed as either the Word, or God, or a member of the trinity, why does the Bible never say that and why are there no examples of such in the Old Testament?​

​

Why did the apostles always call Jesus "the man" (1 Tim. 2:5), "the Son of Man," or "the Son of God," but never "God the Son?"​

​

If the early church really did believe in a Trinity then why were the early centuries filled with disputes regarding who Jesus was with the result not being codified into the Catholic church until the mid-to-late 4th century?​

​

Why did they not agree the Holy Spirit is a 3rd member of the trinity until the late 4th century?​

​

Why do Trinitarians rely heavily on extra-biblical words/phrases (Trinity, hypostatic union, God-man, incarnate, consubstantial, etc) instead of just using the words/phrases the Bible uses?​

 

[synergy]

I am sure all of you trinitarians have noticed by now, but the Trinity doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

That happens only in your mind because you continuously disregard what the Bible reveals to everyone. Let's see if we can expunge from your mind all your erroneous presuppositions that have clouded your perception of reality.

Did you ever notice how you all always begin with a presumption of a trinity god, you list all of your reasons why, but it always circles back to the beginning, all the way to square one, when asked where there is a working example of the trinity in action or someone at least defining the God of the Bible as three, a they, or them? Yet no one in all of history has been able to find that.

There you go again, disregarding all the Theophanies (Trinitarian Manifestations) across the Bible. For example, Jesus' Baptism. This is new Gaffe #29.

Consider the following common arguments produced by trinitarians, just to name a few:
"Jesus is a God-Man"
"Jesus is 100% man and 100% God"
"Jesus resurrected himself"
"Jesus pre-existed his birth"
"Jesus is the Word"
"God incarnated"

Sounds hypocritical on your part. Consider the following arguments produced by unitarians, just to name a few:

"Only the Father is God",
"God is one Person",
"Jesus is not God",
"The Holy Spirit is not a Person"

So, it's ok those unitarian phrases are not found in the Bible but it's not ok for the trinitarian phrases. Sheeesh.

This is your new Gaffe #30.

Yet the Bible doesn't say any of those things. There is no example of anyone saying Jesus is a God-Man, no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself or anyone saying he did,

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #18.

no examples of him pre-existing in the Old Testament either saying or doing anything.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #10.

he was never called the Word, and the Bible never says Jesus incarnated.

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14).
New Gaffe #31.

Everything the trinitarian says begs the question: Why does the Bible never say what you say???

Start by correcting your Gaffes and you will begin to see the light.
New Gaffe #32.

So what happened to all of these trinitarian people? What are they seeing that God, Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and the early church didn't even talk about?

The Early Church did talk about the Trinity, In fact, they put it on paper for all to see in the Nicene Creed. New Gaffe #33.

Can any one answer one or more of these questions:

Where in the Bible does anyone ever define God as three persons in one God?​

The Bible goes one better by recording the manifestation of the Trinity in Jesus' Baptism and in many other instances. New Gaffe #34.

Trinitarians claim the Trinity is central to Christianity. Why is it that there is not one example of it being taught to anyone in Acts or elsewhere in the New Testament? Why not the Old Testament?​

Repeat of Gaffe #34.

Why do the inspired writers everywhere speak of God like a single person, i,e,. He, Him, His, but never as a they or them?​

Did you rip out Genesis 1:26 out of your Bible?
Repeat of Gaffe #13.

Why does terminology, or something similar, that says "Jesus is 100% God and 100% man" never appear in the Bible?​

John declares The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14) and expects the readers to have the intelligence to understand that, not to scoff at what he wrote like you do.

And even if the Bible had that phrase, you would still want further proof. We're onto your game. New Gaffe #35.

Why did no one say Jesus resurrected himself after he died?​

Why don't you believe Jesus when he said that he definitely has the ability to resurrect himself?
Repeat of Gaffe #18.

If Jesus pre-existed as either the Word, or God, or a member of the trinity, why does the Bible never say that and​

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). Stop running away from those verses.
Repeat of Gaffe #31.

why are there no examples of such in the Old Testament?​

Repeat of Gaffe #10.

Why did the apostles always call Jesus "the man" (1 Tim. 2:5), "the Son of Man," or "the Son of God," but never "God the Son?"​

The "Word of God" Title is not good enough for you? How many titles must we give Jesus before you wake up to reality?
New Gaffe #36.

If the early church really did believe in a Trinity then why were the early centuries filled with disputes regarding who Jesus was with the result not being codified into the Catholic church until the mid-to-late 4th century?​

Because of Heretics like you who love to dispute the Bible and who run away from facing up to what the Bible truly reveals. New Gaffe #37.

Why did they not agree the Holy Spirit is a 3rd member of the trinity until the late 4th century?​

Again, because of Heretics like you who run away from facing up to what the Bible truly reveals.
Repeat of Gaffe #37.

Why do Trinitarians rely heavily on extra-biblical words/phrases (Trinity, hypostatic union, God-man, incarnate, consubstantial, etc) instead of just using the words/phrases the Bible uses?​

Whenever I do rely on Biblical words, for example: "tabernacled" in John 1:14, heretics like you run away as fast as your legs can carry you.
New Gaffe #38.


Growing List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Uncreated Word of God, in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3), who came to people as a Communicative Person and who has all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John explicitly wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image" (Gen 1:26). That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on that Throne.
20. You are ignorant of the fact that belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh in the LXX) is required for our salvation.
21. You are ignorant of the fact that there are Bible version that do capitalized the Word in the Bible.
22. You conflate both old and new covenants and you have no appreciation of why Jesus is the one and only Mediator between God and men. Hint: John 1:1c and the rest of the Bible.
23. If Jesus was not God, as you claim, Jesus' statement in John 14:1 would be blasphemous according to Jer. 17:5–7.
24. Your desperate attempt to portray Jesus as just a common man when you left out the part that he personally had no need of the baptism of repentance.
25. You just blatantly contradicted God who declared "besides Me there is no savior” (Isaiah 43:11) and "there is no savior besides Me" (Hosea 13:4).
26. Your poor understanding of the Biblical usage of the word "became" causes 2 Cor 5:21 to say that Jesus came into existence as sin and causes Matt 5:45 to say that you came into existence only when you became sons of God, not when you were born.
27. You think words created everything, not God.
28. In your delusional thinking, you're equating Scripture with your Judaizing Unitarian Heresies.
29. You disregard all the Theophanies (Trinitarian Manifestations) across the entire Bible.
30. It is hypocritical to present commonly used phrases as not found in the Bible. The "Only the Father is God", "God is one Person", "Jesus is not God", "The Holy Spirit is not a Person" unitarian foundational phrases are not found in the Bible.
31. You totally disregard the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14).
32. You refuse to correct even one of your Gaffes.
33. Your poor understanding of history is demonstrated by the fact that you did not know that the Early Church did talk about the Trinity in the Nicene Creed.
34. It's not good enough for you that the Bible records the manifestation of the Trinity in Jesus' Baptism and in many other instances.
35. The Bible expects the readers to have the intelligence to understand what's written in John 1:1-17, not to scoff at what he wrote like unitarians do.
36. The "Word of God" Title is not good enough for you. How many titles must we give Jesus before unitarians wake up to reality?
37. You refuse to understand that the early church was filled with disputes about the Trinity because of Heretics like you.
38. Whenever a Trinitarian does rely on Biblical words, for example: "tabernacled" in John 1:14, unitarian heretics run away as fast as their legs can carry them.
39. I gave you a challenge to give me your 3 best passages that support your Judaizing Unitarian Heresies. You feebly made a reference to John 17:3 which was already corrected in Gaffe #11.

 

[civic]

I am sure all of you Unitarians have noticed by now, but the Unitarian doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

Stop @Runningman away from Jesus words and testimony about the Father.
You are dodging it intentionally.

1- you make Jesus words a lie
1- you have no answer as a Unitarian since Jesus words below expose your false teaching.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So the Million dollar question that exposes Unitarians is this :

Who did they see and hear in the OT who is called God/YHWH ?

We know from Jesus own teaching it was not the Father, so who was God that was seen and heard in the OT ?

Conclusion: End of discussion Unitarianism just collapsed and had its legs cut off. Looks like Jesus declared to all unitarians everywhere " I gotcha " with John 5:37 and John 6:46. Jesus exposed the pharisees who were also unitarians and denied his Deity just like the children of the pharisees do today- the modern day unitarians.

hope this helps !!!

next fallacious OP.

 

[Runningman]

That happens only in your mind because you continuously disregard what the Bible reveals to everyone. Let's see if we can expunge from your mind all your erroneous presuppositions that have clouded your perception of reality.

There you go again, disregarding all the Theophanies (Trinitarian Manifestations) across the Bible. For example, Jesus' Baptism. This is new Gaffe #29.

Sounds hypocritical on your part. Consider the following arguments produced by unitarians, just to name a few:

"Only the Father is God",
"God is one Person",
"Jesus is not God",
"The Holy Spirit is not a Person"

So, it's ok those unitarian phrases are not found in the Bible but it's not ok for the trinitarian phrases. Sheeesh.

This is your new Gaffe #30.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #18.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #10.

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14).
New Gaffe #31.

Start by correcting your Gaffes and you will begin to see the light.
New Gaffe #32.

The Early Church did talk about the Trinity, In fact, they put it on paper for all to see in the Nicene Creed. New Gaffe #33.

The Bible goes one better by recording the manifestation of the Trinity in Jesus' Baptism and in many other instances. New Gaffe #34.

Repeat of Gaffe #34.

Did you rip out Genesis 1:26 out of your Bible?
Repeat of Gaffe #13.

John declares The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14) and expects the readers to have the intelligence to understand that, not to scoff at what he wrote like you do.

And even if the Bible had that phrase, you would still want further proof. We're onto your game. New Gaffe #35.

Why don't you believe Jesus when he said that he definitely has the ability to resurrect himself?
Repeat of Gaffe #18.

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). Stop running away from those verses.
Repeat of Gaffe #31.

Repeat of Gaffe #10.

The "Word of God" Title is not good enough for you? How many titles must we give Jesus before you wake up to reality?
New Gaffe #36.

Because of Heretics like you who love to dispute the Bible and who run away from facing up to what the Bible truly reveals. New Gaffe #37.

Again, because of Heretics like you who run away from facing up to what the Bible truly reveals.
Repeat of Gaffe #37.

Whenever I do rely on Biblical words, for example: "tabernacled" in John 1:14, heretics like you run away as fast as your legs can carry you.
New Gaffe #38.


Growing List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Uncreated Word of God, in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3), who came to people as a Communicative Person and who has all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John explicitly wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image" (Gen 1:26). That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on that Throne.
20. You are ignorant of the fact that belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh in the LXX) is required for our salvation.
21. You are ignorant of the fact that there are Bible version that do capitalized the Word in the Bible.
22. You conflate both old and new covenants and you have no appreciation of why Jesus is the one and only Mediator between God and men. Hint: John 1:1c and the rest of the Bible.
23. If Jesus was not God, as you claim, Jesus' statement in John 14:1 would be blasphemous according to Jer. 17:5–7.
24. Your desperate attempt to portray Jesus as just a common man when you left out the part that he personally had no need of the baptism of repentance.
25. You just blatantly contradicted God who declared "besides Me there is no savior” (Isaiah 43:11) and "there is no savior besides Me" (Hosea 13:4).
26. Your poor understanding of the Biblical usage of the word "became" causes 2 Cor 5:21 to say that Jesus came into existence as sin and causes Matt 5:45 to say that you came into existence only when you became sons of God, not when you were born.
27. You think words created everything, not God.
28. In your delusional thinking, you're equating Scripture with your Judaizing Unitarian Heresies.
29. You disregard all the Theophanies (Trinitarian Manifestations) across the entire Bible.
30. It is hypocritical to present commonly used phrases as not found in the Bible. The "Only the Father is God", "God is one Person", "Jesus is not God", "The Holy Spirit is not a Person" unitarian foundational phrases are not found in the Bible.
31. You totally disregard the fact that the Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14).
32. You refuse to correct even one of your Gaffes.
33. Your poor understanding of history is demonstrated by the fact that you did not know that the Early Church did talk about the Trinity in the Nicene Creed.
34. It's not good enough for you that the Bible records the manifestation of the Trinity in Jesus' Baptism and in many other instances.
35. The Bible expects the readers to have the intelligence to understand what's written in John 1:1-17, not to scoff at what he wrote like unitarians do.
36. The "Word of God" Title is not good enough for you. How many titles must we give Jesus before unitarians wake up to reality?
37. You refuse to understand that the early church was filled with disputes about the Trinity because of Heretics like you.
38. Whenever a Trinitarian does rely on Biblical words, for example: "tabernacled" in John 1:14, unitarian heretics run away as fast as their legs can carry them.
39. I gave you a challenge to give me your 3 best passages that support your Judaizing Unitarian Heresies. You feebly made a reference to John 17:3 which was already corrected in Gaffe #11.

Thanks for proving my OP spot on. You have just proven that trinitariansim cannot even answer the must fundamental questions regarding its own cult. You guys are stuck going in circles and you can’t even find your way out of a paper bag.

 

[synergy]

Thanks for proving my OP spot on. You have just proven that trinitariansim cannot even answer the must fundamental questions regarding its own cult. You guys are stuck going in circles and you can’t even find your way out of a paper bag.

Your remarks are a clear instance of psychological projection, reflecting your evident inability to provide any counterargument in defense of your unitarian position.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Runningman is running from truth

He needs a created being,, rejecting the fact. no created being can take on the sin of all mankind and pay for those sins..

 

[360watt]

Colossians 2:8-9 KJV - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[civic]

Colossians 2:8-9 KJV - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Amen another Trinity passage they deny through their craftiness and human philosophy that’s deceptive as Paul says in that passage and in Colossians 1:19.

 

[Regeneration]

The New Testament contains abundant indications of the deity of Jesus. Philippians 2:5–11 is a powerful passage. In verse 6, Paul says of Jesus that “being in very nature God, [he] did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.” The word translated “in very nature,” or “in the form of,” is the Greek morphē. It is the word that refers to the full set of characteristics which make something that which it is, as contrasted with the word schēma, which is the external appearance, or facade, which does not necessarily indicate the true nature of the thing.

 

[Runningman]

Your remarks are a clear instance of psychological projection, reflecting your evident inability to provide any counterargument in defense of your unitarian position.

Your beliefs about the trinity are philosophy, purely imaginary from a Biblical perspective.

You can't show any sort of discussion or teaching about any of the below things in the Bible. There's a lot more too.

"The Trinity"
"Jesus is a God-Man"
"Jesus is 100% man and 100% God"
"Jesus resurrected himself"
"Jesus pre-existed his birth"
"Jesus is the Word"
"God incarnated"

 

[Runningman]

I am sure all of you Unitarians have noticed by now, but the Unitarian doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

Stop @Runningman away from Jesus words and testimony about the Father.
You are dodging it intentionally.

1- you make Jesus words a lie
1- you have no answer as a Unitarian since Jesus words below expose your false teaching.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has testified about me himself. You have never heard his voice or seen him face to face

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So the Million dollar question that exposes Unitarians is this :

Who did they see and hear in the OT who is called God/YHWH ?

We know from Jesus own teaching it was not the Father, so who was God that was seen and heard in the OT ?

Conclusion: End of discussion Unitarianism just collapsed and had its legs cut off. Looks like Jesus declared to all unitarians everywhere " I gotcha " with John 5:37 and John 6:46. Jesus exposed the pharisees who were also unitarians and denied his Deity just like the children of the pharisees do today- the modern day unitarians.

hope this helps !!!

next fallacious OP.

You're further proving my point.

For starters, not even Jesus is said to have visually seen the Father. When Jesus refers to seeing the Father, he is referring to understanding/knowing the Father.

For example, Jesus later told his disciples they have seen the Father. Not because they had visually seen the Father, but because they finally understood the Father, because they finally understood Jesus.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman is running from truth

He needs a created being,, rejecting the fact. no created being can take on the sin of all mankind and pay for those sins..

The Bible explicitly states Jesus is created.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman is running from truth

He needs a created being,, rejecting the fact. no created being can take on the sin of all mankind and pay for those sins..

So, contrary to the Bible saying that forgiveness of sins came from Jesus shedding his blood on the cross, you seem to not believe that, and you think God died?

 

[Aaron]

Most of the confusion regarding the number of beings composing the Godhead springs from a simple misunderstanding of the word “one.” Simply put, “one” in the Bible does not always mean numerical quantity. Depending on the Scripture, “one” can often mean unity.

You can see this principle established very early in Scripture. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh” Genesis 2:24

“One flesh” here does not mean that a married couple melt into one human after their wedding, but rather they are to be united into one family.

Jesus prayed that the apostles would be one, saying, “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one” John 17:22-23

 

[civic]

You're further proving my point.

For starters, not even Jesus is said to have visually seen the Father. When Jesus refers to seeing the Father, he is referring to understanding/knowing the Father.

For example, Jesus later told his disciples they have seen the Father. Not because they had visually seen the Father, but because they finally understood the Father, because they finally understood Jesus.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Wrong He said no one has seen the Father except Him. I guess He didn’t mean no one has audibly heard His voice too.

What a bunch of nonsense to twist Jesus words into a theological pretzel

Yikes