101G
Active Member
thanks for the reply. agreed, once one confess and believe..... then one must "GROW" in LEARNING.
101G.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
101G.
Yes, brother —and let me add: the Bible is not about intellectual growth. God Himself says: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent” (1 Cor 1:19). What He seeks are not clever minds but pure hearts (Ps 24:4; Mt 5:8).
This purity shows itself even in daily life: we are told to renounce “all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor [shouting], and slander” (Eph 4:31) —even within the closest circle of our own families. It is not that we can never raise our voice; Christ Himself used a whip in the temple (Jn 2:15) and spoke with burning zeal. But His passion was always under the control of reason and directed by love for God and His Word.
The true growth is in kenosis —the emptying of the ego, which is the deepest root of evil. Only by renouncing ego-driven passions can we imitate Christ’s humility (Phil 2:6–7), living not in clamor and self-assertion but in love, meekness, and purity of heart.
101G
Active Member
correct, God is against PRIDE.
are you going to make me shout. ..... (smile). 100% correct. thank you.
101G.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Thanks, Milo. That's appreciated.
Now, the word "good." There is no moral quality to this word. It merely means, "good enough" or "to specification."
In other words, God creates something and is pleased with how it came out which was/is "to [His] specification." We say the same thing as when we follow a recipe. We bake/cook something, and we are pleased with how it came out. You share it with someone, and they say, "it came out good" (to specification of the recipe.) That's all the word means.
I see you haven't thought this through or studied the question.
- If Adam and Eve were created sinners, then “very good” would mean “very evil.” That is absurd. God cannot call fallen sin “very good.”
- Scripture is emphatic that God is not the author of evil.
- “He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice.” (Deut 32:4).
- “God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.” (James 1:13).
To say God created sinners is to make Him the author of sin —impossible.- Finiteness is not sin. Adam and Eve were limited creatures (not omniscient, not eternal, not divine), but limitation is not rebellion. Sin appeared only when they misused freedom.
- The command proves freedom, not prior guilt. The “you shall not eat” (Gen 2:17) shows responsibility, not that they were already sinners.
- Romans 5 is crystal clear:
- “Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin” (Rom 5:12).
If Adam was already a sinner at creation, Paul is wrong —but Scripture says sin entered through him. Entry means it was not there before.- Ecclesiastes 7:29 confirms it:
“God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
God made them upright. The fall came later by their choice.
Conclusion
God did not create sinners. He created man and woman upright, innocent, and free. Sin entered later, through disobedience, not through creation.
To say otherwise denies Gen 1:31, Rom 5:12, and Eccl 7:29, and makes God the author of sin —which the Bible everywhere rejects.
Adam and the woman were created from the dust of the ground (Adam) and from Adam's rib (the woman.)
Isaiah says: There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE. Isaiah also so this:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:6–7.
The word refers to moral evil. First Corinthians 15 describes the distinction between Christ (Anointed) and Adam. One is from the earth, earthy; the other is the Lord from heaven. God is the standard by which all things are judged against. Now, you say, "innocent" and that I can agree with. But innocent only in the sense that there was no "thou shalt not" command other than the command "thou shalt not eat of the Tree." For as long as Adam and the woman were alive before the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil came into the picture we don't know. But the existence of a "thou shalt not" in the Garden proves they were sinners for the Law (or Command) is for a sinful 'man.'
They were innocent as long as God did not say "thou shalt not." But once the command came, sin revived, and by it," Saul says, "slew me." Now take a read of this:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Romans 7:7–9.
I believe in a Sovereign God. There is NONE like Him. Adam possessed none of God's Nature or Deific Attributes at creation. He was created "fallen short of the glory of God," or "the glory that is God." So, if Adam did not possess none of God's Nature or any of His Deific Attributes such as Sinlessness, Holiness, Eternalness, etc., then he was created "fallen short of God's glory." The word for that condition is "sin." The Greek word "sin" according to Strong means "missing the mark" (think archery.) The only two Persons who can stand before a Holy and Sinless God is a Holy and Sinless Son and a Holy and Sinless Spirit. Everything and everyone else fall short of God's glory. The material universe was created fallen short of God's glory or sinful. It was not created eternal. The Law of Entropy erodes the created condition of the universe. Now, let's apply Saul's words to Adam. It goes like this and it is a perfect example:
ADAM: "What shall we say then? Is the law/command sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law/command: for I had not known disobedience, except the law/command had said, Thou shalt not eat of it."
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law/command is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20.
The existence of a law/command "thou shalt not" is evidence that Adam and the woman were sinful. I believe they were created sinful, or as the word is defined by Strong, "missing the mark."
What is that "mark" [or standard] missed"?
The glory of God.
There is no distinction between the Law of God and the Commands of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law - no matter if written or spoken.
Another thing. If Adam was created possessing at least ONE of God's Nature or Deific Attributes (Sinlessness, Eternalness, etc.), then Adam would of necessity must needs possess ALL the Nature or Deific Attributes of God else he would fall short of God's glory. Beside this, Isaiah said, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Sinlessness, Holiness, Eternalness, etc.), to NO ONE. If I only had this what Isaiah said only to judge Adam's creative composition this would tell me Adam was sinful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God.
As long as there were no restrictions given to Adam, then yes, he was 'innocent' but he was still a sinner ("missing the mark") of God's glory. But when the Command came, sin revived, and it slew him."
Adam and the woman were created sinful. That's the only way God can create them. God cannot copy or reduplicate His Nature or Deific Attributes to man. Those 'things' are particular to God. Isaiah does say God creates evil, right? This was done when God created man.
But then you say, "God is not the Author of sin" that, my friend, flies in the face of Isaiah's statement that God created evil. The teaching that God is not the Author of sin is false Constantinian Gentile theology. But according to God and Scripture, Isaiah says unequivocally that God created evil. I will take Isaiah's words and reject the textbook answer that God is not the Author of sin. So, now how is this reconciled? The same way the high priest is 'reconciled' that allows him to enter the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle. Before the high priest enters the Holy of Holies, he must undergo a ritual every year on Yom Kippur with the blood of the sacrifice. There is: Purification, Special Garments, Sacrificial Offerings, Incense, and Blood Sprinkling. I understand those who do claim God is not the Author of sin, but Isaiah contradicts that theology. In fact, if God did create evil (or sinful man) then this would impugn God's Righteousness. How is this reconciled? Like this: before God created heaven, earth, and man a lamb was slain. This occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.
"From" is the word, "before." "Foundation" means "creation."
A lamb was slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world.
This allowed God to create a sinful man. God was "covered", He was in a sense, "atoned" so that when He went about creating heaven, earth, and man a lamb had been slain as with the high priest, which allowed God to create a sinful man - Adam. And there were other things that came into existence because of the lamb that was slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world. This offering made in the Heavenly Tabernacle before creation allowed several other things to exist.
The blood of God's prophets was predestined by this lamb sacrifice:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Luke 11:50.
Jesus the Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1:19–20.
A people were foreordained through this heavenly sacrifice:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:4–5.
A kingdom was foreordained for God's Chosen people:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34.
Things to be spoken and revealed by God was foreordained by the lamb sacrifice:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Matthew 13:35.
A rest (which we now know is the Holy Spirit) was foreordained by this lamb sacrifice:
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:2–3.
The Promised One would suffer (longsuffering) since the founding of creation and again suffer as a God-man:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:25–26.
Love between Father and Son was foreordained into creationand the basis of Israel's redemption:
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24.
Then there are 'unspeakable things" that accompanies this lamb sacrifice in the Heavenly offering that occurred from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
These acts of God that occurred in the Heavenly Tabernacle were done from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world. This sacrifice in the Heavenly Tabernacle by Father and Son and Holy Spirit foreordained a people of God as opposed to a people not of God.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8.
When God contemplated in His Mind of creating a people "to be with Him" (Mark 3:14) He by necessity had to create heaven, earth, and man in time and space in order to bring about their redemption, salvation, and deliverance for an eternal relationship with God. God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself which found it necessary to create heaven and earth in order to bring about His Plan of Man. He couldn't do this in Eternity, in Himself, for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Was Adam Created a Sinner? On God, Evil, and Creation
1. The Witness of Creation
Genesis 1:31 (Hebrew): hinneh-tov meod (הִנֵּה־טוֹב מְאֹד)
→ “Behold, it was very good.”
Greek LXX: idou kala lian (ἰδοὺ καλὰ λίαν).
The adjective kalos in the NT has moral weight (“the good shepherd,” Jn 10:11).
Conclusion: God does not declare “very evil” what He calls “very good.” To suggest that Adam and Eve were created already sinful empties Genesis 1:31 of meaning.
2. The Hebrew Word
We must distinguish two senses of “evil” in Hebrew, else we collapse categories:
- Moral Evil (sin).
Genesis 6:5: “every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only raʿ (evil) continually.” - Calamity/Disaster.
Amos 3:6: “Does disaster (raʿ) come to a city unless YHWH has done it?”
In Isaiah 45:7 — “I make peace and create raʿ” — the context is political judgment (Cyrus, exile, war). It is calamity, not sin.3. The Greek Vocabulary
- kakos (κακός): moral evil.
- ponēros (πονηρός): active wickedness, “the evil one.”
- kakia (κακία): depravity.
The NT never uses kakos or ponēros to describe God’s creative action.
Instead, it states explicitly:
- ho Theos apeirastos kakōn (ὁ Θεὸς ἀπείραστός κακῶν) → “God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.” (James 1:13)
BibleHub – James 1:13 - “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5)
4. Adam and Sin: Scriptural Clarity
- Ecclesiastes 7:29: “God made man upright (yashar), but they sought out many schemes.”
- Romans 5:12: “Through one man sin entered the world.” If Adam was already sinful, sin did not “enter”; it was already present. Paul’s argument collapses under that theory.
- Deuteronomy 32:4: “The Rock, His work is perfect; all His ways are justice.”
Adam was finite, not divine; but finiteness ≠ sin. Even Christ in the flesh was finite, yet “without sin” (Heb 4:15).5. On Law and Sin (Romans 7)
Paul says: “I was alive once without the law; but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died” (Rom 7:9).
This is Paul’s existential description of how law exposes sin, not a cosmology of Adam’s creation.
- If Adam was already sinful, there was nothing for the law to “revive.”
- The command in Eden reveals freedom and responsibility, not prior guilt.
6. The Patristic Witness
- Irenaeus (Adv. Haer. IV, 39): Adam was created innocent and capable of growth; sin came later by misuse of freedom.
Against Heresies IV - Origen (De Principiis II,9): distinguishes “physical evil” (calamity, punishment, pain) — which can be attributed to God’s providence — from “moral evil” (sin), which comes from free will.
Origen – On First Principles - Augustine (Confessions VII,12): moral evil is privatio boni — the privation of good. God creates substance; sin is a lack, not a thing created.
Confessions VII
7. On the “Lamb Slain from the Foundation” (Rev 13:8)
This text shows God’s foreknowledge and eternal plan of redemption, not that man was created sinful.
- God foresaw sin and provided salvation.
- But foreordination of grace ≠ predetermination of guilt.
Final Distinction (Non-Negotiable)
- Physical Evil / Calamity (raʿ in Isa 45:7): God creates and permits as judgment.
- Moral Evil (raʿ, kakos, ponēros): born of the will of creatures. Never created by God.
Conclusion
- To say Adam was created sinful contradicts Genesis 1:31, Ecclesiastes 7:29, and Romans 5:12.
- To confuse raʿ (calamity) with moral evil misreads Isaiah 45:7.
- To equate finiteness with sin denies Christ’s own incarnation.
- To make God the author of sin denies James 1:13 and 1 John 1:5.
God created Adam and Eve upright, innocent, and free. Sin entered later, through disobedience, not through creation.
As Augustine said: “Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name ‘evil.’” (Conf. VII,12).
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Why do you do that? You bring up the Hebrew but then define the word using the Septuagint.
1. The Witness of Creation
Genesis 1:31 (Hebrew): hinneh-tov meod (הִנֵּה־טוֹב מְאֹד)
→ “Behold, it was very good.”
Greek LXX: idou kala lian (ἰδοὺ καλὰ λίαν).
The adjective kalos in the NT has moral weight (“the good shepherd,” Jn 10:11).
Conclusion: God does not declare “very evil” what He calls “very good.” To suggest that Adam and Eve were created already sinful empties Genesis 1:31 of meaning.
Use the Hebrew to define the Hebrew. There is no such dictionary except in the mind of idiots that take a word written in one language and define it using another language. Use Hebrew definitions to define Hebrew words.
The word means "moral evil" as defined by Strong.2. The Hebrew Word
We must distinguish two senses of “evil” in Hebrew, else we collapse categories:
- Moral Evil (sin).
Genesis 6:5: “every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only raʿ (evil) continually.”- Calamity/Disaster.
Amos 3:6: “Does disaster (raʿ) come to a city unless YHWH has done it?”
There is no creative action by God in the NT. Creation is found in Genesis, not the New Testament.
Either Adam and the woman were created "sinful" meaning "missing the mark" or they were created as equal with God in every way God exists, that God reduplicated His Nature and Deific Attributes in man thus meaning God reduplicated Himself and now there are the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and man is God.Instead, it states explicitly:
- ho Theos apeirastos kakōn (ὁ Θεὸς ἀπείραστός κακῶν) → “God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.” (James 1:13)
- “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5)
You really do not understand the significance of this verse:
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.
Why was it necessary for a lamb to be slain - most likely in the Heavenly Tabernacle - BEFORE God created heaven, earth, and man?
Sin entered creation - which was sinful itself, when God created man.4. Adam and Sin: Scriptural Clarity
- Ecclesiastes 7:29: “God made man upright (yashar), but they sought out many schemes.”
- Romans 5:12: “Through one man sin entered the world.” If Adam was already sinful, sin did not “enter”; it was already present. Paul’s argument collapses under that theory.
- Deuteronomy 32:4: “The Rock, His work is perfect; all His ways are justice.”
It says, "through man sin entered the world." There is no mention of any ACT of sin but merely by Adam's existence sin entered the world (which was already sinful.)
Sin revived when God said, "Thou shalt not." Before then there was no command (or Law) that identified Adam as sinful. Let's take what Saul says here and apply it to Adam:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Romans 7:7–9.
ADAM: "What shall say then? Is the law/command sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law/command: for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law/command had said, Thou shalt not eat of it."
The existence of "Thou shalt not" proves Adam and the woman were created sinful, or as the word is define, "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" missed?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
Sin does not come from holy. Sin does not come from righteousness. Holiness and Righteousness are attributes and Nature of God. Adam sinned because he was a sinner. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy.
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.
Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy.
Saul makes definitive distinctions between the first Adam and the last Adam:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:42–49.
Adam sinned BECAUSE he was a sinner. Sin comes from sinner just as wickedness comes from the wicked. There is nothing holy or righteous about dirt. Adam is a by-product. God created earth out of nothing. It possessed no Deific Nature or Attributes. God created earth out of nothing. God created Adam out of something already created. There is nothing holy or righteous about the earth (dirt.) It is not eternal, it is not holy, it is not righteous. The earth is not eternal. This alone means the earth was created "fallen short of God's glory." Volcanoes, earthquakes, prove the earth is dying. It's called the Law of Entropy. Everything in creation is digressing into chaos, is dying. Stars get old and then go nova. The star dies. Man grows old and then dies. Even if Adam had not eaten from the forbidden Tree he would have eventually died. God did not create Adam eternal. Eternalness is the Nature of God. And Isaiah says, "God gives His glory to NO ONE." Thus, Adam was created fallen short of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin" ("missing the mark.")
Sorry, but God contradicts these men. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, He did no sin. It was impossible for Christ to sin.6. The Patristic Witness
- Irenaeus (Adv. Haer. IV, 39): Adam was created innocent and capable of growth; sin came later by misuse of freedom.
- Origen (De Principiis II,9): distinguishes “physical evil” (calamity, punishment, pain) — which can be attributed to God’s providence — from “moral evil” (sin), which comes from free will.
- Augustine (Confessions VII,12): moral evil is privatio boni — the privation of good. God creates substance; sin is a lack, not a thing created.
It says [a] "lamb was slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world." Man is not even mentioned.
Why did God slay a lamb before creating heaven, earth, and man? Most likely it was slain in the Heavenly Tabernacle. Why have an earthly Tabernacle to be built and fashioned after the Heavenly Tabernacle? Man performs religious acts in an earthly Tabernacle. It is only reasonable that God performed religious acts in the Heavenly Tabernacle. According to Revelation 13: 8 a lamb was slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world."
According to Isaiah speaking for God says God created evil (moral evil.)
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else,
There is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:5–7.
I don't try to explain away this verse. I accept it as written and use Scripture to interpret Scripture.
The word is defined by Strong as [moral] evil.
evil: raʿfrom [#7489] (ra`a`); bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral)
Not so. Sin comes from the man. God addressed Adam for the sin of the woman. He was responsible to God for the act of the woman.
So, was Adam created holy? God actually reduplicated His Holiness in the man at creation? If this is what you are saying, and YOU ARE, then Adam would have to possess ALL the Deific Attributes of God else he would fall short of God's glory.
There are only two Persons that can stand blameless before a Holy God and they are a Holy Son and Holy Spirit.
But according to you God created Adam holy.
God is Holy. How long before God sin since you claim sin comes from holy?
No. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy. Christ, the last Adam, was Holy and He did no sin.
You haven't studied the question. You refer to men and not to the Sacred text of Scripture.
Scripture teaches sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy.
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Sinlessness, Holiness, Eternalness) to NO ONE.
Adam sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.
Was Adam Created a Sinner?
1. Genesis says creation was “very good.”
- “God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.”
Genesis 1:31 (Hebrew/English)
To call Adam “already sinful” makes tov meod (“very good”) meaningless.
2. Adam was made upright, sin entered later.
- “God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
Ecclesiastes 7:29 - “Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin.”
Romans 5:12
Paul’s logic collapses if Adam was sinful from the start.
3. Isaiah 45:7 = calamity/judgment, not moral evil.
- Hebrew raʿ (רַע) has two senses: moral evil (Gen 6:5) or calamity/disaster (Amos 3:6).
- “I make peace and create calamity (raʿ).”
Isaiah 45:7
The context is Cyrus and judgment on nations, not God manufacturing sin.
4. God does not create or tempt with sin.
- “God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.”
James 1:13 - “God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all.”
1 John 1:5
5. Law reveals sin, it does not create it.
- “I was alive once without the law; when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.”
Romans 7:9
The command in Eden revealed responsibility; it did not prove Adam was created sinful.
6. The Lamb “slain from the foundation of the world.”
- Some translations tie “from the foundation” to the Book of Life, not to “slain.”
Revelation 13:8 (NET, ESV notes) - Either way, Hebrews is clear: Christ’s sacrifice occurred once in history.
Hebrews 9:26
Conclusion
- Genesis 1:31 affirms creation as “very good.”
- Ecclesiastes 7:29 and Romans 5:12 say sin entered later.
- Isaiah 45:7 speaks of calamity, not God creating sin.
- James 1:13 and 1 John 1:5 deny God as author of evil.
- Adam was created upright and free. Sin came by disobedience, not by design.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You're trying very hard to maintain your party-line textbook answers against the truth of Scripture.
1. Genesis says creation was “very good.”
- “God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.”
To call Adam “already sinful” makes tov meod (“very good”) meaningless.
2. Adam was made upright, sin entered later.
- “God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
- “Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin.”
Paul’s logic collapses if Adam was sinful from the start.
3. Isaiah 45:7 = calamity/judgment, not moral evil.
- Hebrew raʿ (רַע) has two senses: moral evil (Gen 6:5) or calamity/disaster (Amos 3:6).
- “I make peace and create calamity (raʿ).”
The context is Cyrus and judgment on nations, not God manufacturing sin.
4. God does not create or tempt with sin.
- “God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.”
- “God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all.”
5. Law reveals sin, it does not create it.
- “I was alive once without the law; when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.”
The command in Eden revealed responsibility; it did not prove Adam was created sinful.
6. The Lamb “slain from the foundation of the world.”
- Some translations tie “from the foundation” to the Book of Life, not to “slain.”
- Either way, Hebrews is clear: Christ’s sacrifice occurred once in history.
- Genesis 1:31 affirms creation as “very good.”
- Ecclesiastes 7:29 and Romans 5:12 say sin entered later.
- Isaiah 45:7 speaks of calamity, not God creating sin.
- James 1:13 and 1 John 1:5 deny God as author of evil.
- Adam was created upright and free. Sin came by disobedience, not by design.
Again, the word "good" in the creation narrative has no reference to morals or morality. It merely means "to specification." In other words, God exclaims that what He just created is exactly as He willed it to be, that it is to His "specification."
I used to believe all these teachings you now hold to but after nearly fifty years of study under the anointing the Lord has taught me things that contradict the theologies by Gentiles over the centuries. I read Hodge, Vos, Grudem, Augustine, and many other theology books including the classics. But when I read a Scripture that contradicts these Gentile-authored books caused me to look deeper in order to resolve all contradictions and tensions between these theology books and Scripture.
Everything you say in your comment above I used to believe but don't anymore after studying further to resolve a theologian's teaching and Scripture. And I ran into many theologian's teachings that contradict Scripture, and this causes me to resolve the tensions. If you want to continue to post the theologies of other men's bible studies, go ahead. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord in the truth of His Word.
Instead of studying deeper into Scripture on your own and under the anointing to fully understand what it means when Isaiah spoke for God and said, "I create evil" in 45:7, you'd rather take the easy route and reject Scripture for the handy theologies you hold to contained in theology books.
Getting to the truth of Scripture is hard, patient work for God controls how much 'light' we receive of Him in order to learn from Him. As we get closer to Christ's return God is going to send two Jewish witnesses to Israel who will prophesy God's Word to Israel and THEN Israel will recognize their Messiah, and all Israel shall be saved.
I've already replied to your earlier comment, and I am not going to repeat myself. True believers who come across Scripture that contradicts one's beliefs are commanded to ask, seek, and knock, in order to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God said, "I create evil" to Isaiah (45:7) and I don't reject Scripture in order to maintain the party-line theologies of Gentiles. Too bad you don't.
No, he is actually handling scripture pretty well. Just because you don't like what God said, doesn't give you the right to change it.
And God hates sin, so He did not make creation in sin. Sin came later, as Paul says. His creation was good, using the same word Nahum uses to say that God is good.
All you have to say is annointing for us to know you have fallen into the worst kind of false teaching. The fact that it contradicts well proven theology should have tipped you off. Your beliefs are outside of orthodoxy. Paul is clear, but you change what God said through Paul.
Your teachings/beliefs are contrary to scripture, so you continue the tradition. You may want to verify it is the Lord you are serving, by telling people who have come to faith in Christ (as Paul and others write about clearly in scripture) that they are hellbound. That is contary to scripture.
You have allowed "under annointing" to possibly give Satan a place to manipulate your understanding and lead you away from the truth. And has continued to use you to lead others away from the truth. Isaiah 45:7 is actually talking about disaster/calamity and not evil. I think it is funnier that you ran straight to God is evil, instead of looking deeper and finding out what it actually says.
Can you give any scripture and not a "because I said so" that shows this? I mean, God didn't say to study His word and when He is ready, He will show us truth that we be workmen who are not ashamed. It says that we become workmen who need not to be ashamed by study. And that is what pastors are for. That is what the apostles did for the churches they wrote to. That is what the author of Hebrews did for Jewish believers, of whom some accepted Christ as Messiah, some did not, while others just waded about it the water without deciding to accept or not accept, of whom the author states accept or risk being forever shut out.
I'm not sure who tricked you here, but that isn't what happens. Those witnesses are killed, and Israel and the world rejoices. Then three days later they get up and go up to heaven. Israel isn't saved until Revelation 19, long after the witnesses mission is complete. There are also the 144000 sealed of God who are missionaries to the world. The other spot where Israel is saved is in Zechariah, and what is missing is two witnesses. Who is present is Jesus Himself.
And I would say it depends on the contradiction. The way I look at it is, the Bible contains no contradiction. If I see a contradiction, either I am wrong, or I am not understanding some attribute or nature of God that would change the situation to where there is no contradiction. For instance, Jesus facing the wrath of God, and Jesus saying "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken Me." I have told someone that we don't have to deal with the wrath so as to understand everything about what happened. It is enough to know that someway, somehow, God's wrath was involved. What matters, as Paul said in Galatians, is Christ and Christ crucified. Also that it was substutionary, and that it appeased the justice of God. God was satisfied by what Jesus did. There was no ransom made to Satan, and there was no need to satisfy Satan. Sin, the offense of man, is between God and man. Satan has no part. Satan himself sinned against God, and is awaiting his punishment. Even the demons knew, when the question Jesus and asked if He had come to judge them before the time.
Actually God said
"The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing [e]well-being and creating disaster;
I am the Lord who does all these things.
I, for one, do not consider God to be evil as you seem to. Imperfect as you seem to. And there is no fear behind your eyes when you say it. You don't consider what it means if you are wrong. All you are left with is all the evil you have said of God, and you stand before God, and He is going to ask you about it. And if you wonder where the idea of fear behind the eyes comes from, two paces to me mainly. When Aaron and Miriam attacked Moses because he married a non-Jewish Gentile, a woman of Cush, and when Paul speaks of the potter and the clay.
“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.
I will speak with him in a dream.
7 It is not this way for My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
That is, openly, and not [a]using mysterious language,
And he beholds the form of the Lord.
So why were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
9 And the anger of the Lord burned against them and He departed.
Aaron and Miriam did not even care that in attacking Moses, they attacked God. No fear.
"20 On the contrary, who are you, [p]you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object [q]for honorable use, and another [r]for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us [believers], whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, 25 as He also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
Adam and Eve were not created perfect, when it comes to good and evil, they were created innocent. They were not created sinful, but again, innocent. They did not know good and evil. It was not until they actually sinned that they became sinful, and knew the difference between good and evil, even if they didn't understand it at the time. Why did they all of a sudden see themselves as naked. They didn't know. Even God asked "Who told you?" They did not even understand the concept of nakeness prior to sinning. That is how innocent they were.
So no, Adam and Eve were not created sinful. However, God had determined that they would sin, so Adam and Eve were created innocent, meaning they had the capacity to sin, or not to sin. If they had not sinned, everything would have remained as it was. If Adam had not sinned, Eve would have either been cast out and destroyed, and God would have created another companion for Adam. Perhaps that is what weighed on Adam's mind, and he decided he wanted Eve. (Love is a very powerful emotion, and very blinding.)
jeremiah1five
Active Member
But YOU DO change it. Actually, you interpret Christ as the one who changed the Law by making His sacrifice under the Law apply to Gentiles when Gentiles are not even under the Law of Moses. But I think you are too blind to know that's exactly what your interpretation is all about. YOU add Gentiles under the Law so that you can claim Jesus died for them as well as the children of Israel who WERE under the Law and whose sacrifice Jesus made under the Law to atone for the sins of the children of Israel. What you do is JUMP OVER the Mosaic Covenant and try to add Gentiles into Abraham's covenant with God. Then you are able to interpret Galatians 3:28-29 as Saul addressing Gentiles in your theologies. But Saul is writing to Jews. Every letter we have today by Saul, Peter, James, John, etc., were written to Jews. It's THEIR (New) covenant. Leave them to their covenants and stop trying to steal their inheritance.
The word "good" in the creative narrative has nothing to do with morals or morality. It only means, "good enough" or "to specification." Everything God created was to specification (good.)
Really? Show me in the Old Testament where non-Hebrew Gentiles were included and named as being under the Law.
To date, NO ONE has been able to provide the Scripture that Gentiles are in covenant with God, nor is anyone able to tell me his name of this Gentile God mysteriously has covenant with.
No one who is born-again is "hell-bound" as you accuse me of saying. There are people in covenant with God - Hebrews, and there are people NOT in covenant with God - non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Nope. I have always said, the angels that sinned are ALL locked up and awaiting judgment.
Isaiah says God created evil. This happened when He created man. If there is a Law or Command that says, "Thou shalt not" (do that thing), then the command to Adam of "Thou shalt not eat of it" [the Tree] proves the man and woman were sinners BEFORE they ate from the tree. Then, there is this adding to God's word which is what they did BEFORE the sin of disobedience of eating from the forbidden tree. "Neither shall ye touch it" is adding to God's Word and this is called "lying" about what God actually said.
God controls what "light" (illumination) a believer receives. The teaching of three Persons in a Trinity of God is in the Old Testament, but it took almost four thousand years until this truth was studied and became a doctrine found in Scripture. Why did it take that long? I read and study Scripture. I don't always receive revelation when I do. But when I am on something I go after it seeking God for an answer and guess what? He gave it to me. I never read in a theology book - even the classics - where it is taught that Christ is the kingdom of God. I never read in a theology book where the author states only Jews are in covenant with God. They all add to the Bible. And I've read many, many theology books. The reason of how Gentiles all of a sudden got thrown into the Hebrew covenants was because when Rome sent its soldiers to destroy Israel and her Temple they went after Jews but the mixed heritage Jews (of Gentile birth) were the ones left behind who survived. Being they were Jews of mixed birth with Gentiles they only knew Gentile life and their minds heavily influenced by Greek culture. They spoke Latin fluently, may have looked and dressed like Gentiles, but the thing was they were not grown up on Hebrew culture or their religion. It was during Israel's destruction and scattering that mixed heritage (Hellenized) Jews of Gentile birth with a Hebrew that they were so easily able to unmoor true, Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots. They couldn't rightly discern Hebrew history and with a Gentile mindset interpreted the Hebrew Scripture with a Gentile mindset.
Israel has already been atoned. This happened at the cross. Have you even read the New Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah? It says that God forgives Israel and remembers their sin NO MORE. But there's no mechanism in the Jeremiah prophecy where God is able to forgive Israel except the substitutionary sacrifice under the Ceremonial Law that this atonement occurred through which God was able to atone the sins of His people. The New Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. When Jesus said at the last Passover, "this New Testament is in my blood" He was being sacrificed by God as His lamb and His sacrifice for the sins of the children of Israel. There were twelve tribes of Israel. There were twelve Jews at the last Passover who represented the twelve tribes. There were NO GENTILES observing this most holy day in Israel's history except Jews. The first people born-again were three thousand Jews present for the Jewish Feast of Harvest observance. Every day Jews were being born-again by the thousands. The Holy Spirit of Promise Peter spoke of was PROMISED TO ISRAEL and Israel was becoming saved from that day forward.
God is not evil for creating a sinful man. Nor are Christians under judgment for their sin. Their sin has already been atoned. All that's left is for Jews to be born-again. And if a Jew died not seeing the fulfillment of God's Abraham promises it doesn't matter they lived and died before Christ was born and crucified. God is the One who is controlling Hebrew history. Every born-again Jew and mixed race Jews will all be saved. God promised this and Saul says so in Romans 11.
Scripture teaches sin comes from sinner. There was for a time no restriction on what tree they could eat from. Nor was incest a sin that allowed men and women to marry their sister, or their mother's and have children. But once God said, Thou shalt not" then the fact that Adam and the woman were sinners who were innocent of disobeying God until the command came and then, as Saul says, "sin revived and by it slew me." In some towns and cities, it is against the Law (thou shalt not spit on sidewalks) and as long as I don't spit on sidewalks, I am innocent of violating this ordinance or law. The existence of this law proves me as a sinner and a potential lawbreaker only because that law is in the books and as long as no one sees me spitting on the sidewalks, I am guilty but haven't been caught or prosecuted. Saul said, "where there is no law, there is no sin." I am innocent. I can spit to my mouths desire but when God said, "Thou shalt not spit within city limits, I am still a sinner with the potential of breaking that spit-law and just because I don't spit on sidewalks does not mean I am not a spitter. I could notoriously be a jaywalker and not a spitter, I am still somewhere in the society I live in a sinner still because of the fact that is I break one law I am a breaker of all laws. And that is the argument Saul writes. That is the history Moses wrote. Adam and the woman were created sinners before the command "Thou shalt not" (eat of it) was made of God. But when the commandment came, Saul said, "sin revived and by it slew me." Saul also said, "the law is for a sinful man" and "Thou shalt not" qualifies as a Law/Command of God. The existence of "Thou shaltt not" in the Garden PROVES Adam and the woman were sinners BEFORE they ate from the forbidden tree. Sin comes from sinners. The Law (or command) is for a sinful person.
Sin comes from sinners.
Sin does not come from holy. Adam and the woman were created sinful which means "missing the mark."
God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself nor does He give, share, copy, or loan His Sinlessness which is a glory of God, to NO ONE.
Adam wasn't under the temptation. He sinned because he was a sinner. He is NOT a sinner because He sinned.
