The Nature of God in the Atonement

[Johann]

To understand verse #10 you must deal with verse 11. The "travail" of Christ in the Atonement. A choice must be made. A choice between two or three narratives.

The DSS don't represent what most believe they represent. They do show us that there was an effort to change the words of Isaiah 53:11 (as we designate them now) to avoid any context of the suffering Messiah being "ben David". The suffering King.

I don't deny the suffering of Messiah. He suffered in submission to humanity. The very concept of "King" is a distinction that God tried to avoid among Israel.

In Jewish writings, the Messiah is often described in two distinct roles: Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph. These terms reflect different aspects of the anticipated Messiah's work and identity. Below are two references from Jewish writings that highlight these roles:

1. Messiah ben David:
Messiah ben David ("the Messiah, son of David") refers to the future Davidic king who will rule over Israel and bring peace and restoration. This messianic figure is often associated with the final redemption and the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. Several Jewish texts point to this figure, particularly emphasizing his reign as a descendant of King David.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a:

"The rabbis taught: In the future, the Messiah will be a descendant of David, as it is written: 'And a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit' (Isaiah 11:1)."

This reference emphasizes that the Messiah ben David will be a descendant of David, fulfilling the promises made to David regarding an eternal dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12–16).

Midrash Tehillim (Psalms) 2:6:

"I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill." ... This refers to the future messianic king, who will be a descendant of David and will reign over the people of Israel.

2. Messiah ben Joseph:
Messiah ben Joseph ("the Messiah, son of Joseph") refers to a messianic figure who will precede the final Messiah and play a role in preparing for the final redemption, sometimes associated with suffering and leading Israel in battle against the enemies of the Jewish people. This role is somewhat more obscure and debated within Jewish tradition but has a significant place in eschatological thought.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b:

"The Messiah ben Joseph will be wounded in the war of Gog and Magog, and he will die before the coming of the Messiah ben David."

This passage reflects the idea that Messiah ben Joseph will suffer and even die in the conflict leading up to the final redemption. He is seen as a precursor to the Messiah ben David, who will then come to complete the redemption process.

Zohar, Vayechi 223a:

"The Messiah ben Joseph, who will suffer and die, will prepare the way for the ultimate redemption through the coming of the Messiah ben David."

What is your choice @praise_yeshua--between the 3 narratives?

Excellent response here.

Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In Jewish writings, the Messiah is often described in two distinct roles: Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph. These terms reflect different aspects of the anticipated Messiah's work and identity. Below are two references from Jewish writings that highlight these roles:

1. Messiah ben David:
Messiah ben David ("the Messiah, son of David") refers to the future Davidic king who will rule over Israel and bring peace and restoration. This messianic figure is often associated with the final redemption and the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. Several Jewish texts point to this figure, particularly emphasizing his reign as a descendant of King David.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a:

"The rabbis taught: In the future, the Messiah will be a descendant of David, as it is written: 'And a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit' (Isaiah 11:1)."

This reference emphasizes that the Messiah ben David will be a descendant of David, fulfilling the promises made to David regarding an eternal dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12–16).

Midrash Tehillim (Psalms) 2:6:

"I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill." ... This refers to the future messianic king, who will be a descendant of David and will reign over the people of Israel.

2. Messiah ben Joseph:
Messiah ben Joseph ("the Messiah, son of Joseph") refers to a messianic figure who will precede the final Messiah and play a role in preparing for the final redemption, sometimes associated with suffering and leading Israel in battle against the enemies of the Jewish people. This role is somewhat more obscure and debated within Jewish tradition but has a significant place in eschatological thought.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b:

"The Messiah ben Joseph will be wounded in the war of Gog and Magog, and he will die before the coming of the Messiah ben David."

This passage reflects the idea that Messiah ben Joseph will suffer and even die in the conflict leading up to the final redemption. He is seen as a precursor to the Messiah ben David, who will then come to complete the redemption process.

Zohar, Vayechi 223a:

"The Messiah ben Joseph, who will suffer and die, will prepare the way for the ultimate redemption through the coming of the Messiah ben David."

What is your choice @praise_yeshua--between the 3 narratives?

Excellent response here.

Johann.

Messiah ben Joseph

God has reluctantly allowed mankind to "rule" one another. There is no redemption to be found in a conquering ruler. Such brings damnation.

As I've mentioned before. When Cain sinned by seeking to rule over his brother and ultimately murdering innocent Abel, God drove Cain away from his family "to have his (Cain's) own way". God never sought a "ruler" for the righteous. Such laws are indicative of rebels. Thieves. Liars. Unrighteousness not only in deed but having its source in an evil heart having been thoroughly and completely consumed by rebellion to the point of "no hope".

These competing narrative forces choices in humanity. Choices like we face here. Do we see "God" as the origins of wrath not only against man but against His own Son?

No. It is our wholesale sinfulness in our choices that caused Christ's suffering. God delivered His suffering Servant in our Lord.

This same Lord seeks a relationship where we don't just "comply", we ARE what we are purposed to be in Christ.


The writer of Hebrews references Isa 53:10-11 in

Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

This should help you make a good decision between these competing narratives.

 

[Runningman]

Is there a rank in between husband and wife?

Yes there is a rank between a husband and wife. Do you agree?

 

[civic]

@Eternally-Grateful please read the 1st page in this thread. Then we can discuss it if you still have any objections. Thanks.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes there is a rank between a husband and wife. Do you agree?

In this life somewhat yes. In Eternal things, absolutely not.

 

[Runningman]

In this life somewhat yes. In Eternal things, absolutely not.

Thank you for finally replying. Therefore there is a rank between God and Jesus. Someone who is not equal to God is not God. Since God is greater than Jesus than Jesus isn't God. I know, probably not enough for you. I am sure you have a million other excuses but I am willing to work through them with you until you become a Unitarian.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you for finally replying. Therefore there is a rank between God and Jesus. Someone who is not equal to God is not God. Since God is greater than Jesus than Jesus isn't God. I know, probably not enough for you. I am sure you have a million other excuses but I am willing to work through them with you until you become a Unitarian.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

Contrary to what you might think, I take breaks and don't follow all responses. I purposely do this to avoid endless battles that go nowhere. I didn't read your response until today.

I agree that Christ is greater than His Bride but He treats her as Himself. How shall He not with Christ give us all things?

There is no division in the Father and Son relationship. Coequal. CoEternal. CoPowerful.

You don't understand rank. You see it through the eyes/lens of man.

 

[TomL]

Thank you for finally replying. Therefore there is a rank between God and Jesus. Someone who is not equal to God is not God. Since God is greater than Jesus than Jesus isn't God. I know, probably not enough for you. I am sure you have a million other excuses but I am willing to work through them with you until you become a Unitarian.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

John 5:18 (LEB) — 18 So on account of this the Jews were seeking even more to kill him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God.

 

[Runningman]

Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Which is what Paul was teaching the church of Philippi to believe about themselves. I hope you don't believe Paul was teaching them they are equal with God. Oh, dear.

John 5:18 (LEB) — 18 So on account of this the Jews were seeking even more to kill him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God.

So you believe that they were correct when they said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Not sure what your point is.

 

[Runningman]

Contrary to what you might think, I take breaks and don't follow all responses. I purposely do this to avoid endless battles that go nowhere. I didn't read your response until today.

I agree that Christ is greater than His Bride but He treats her as Himself. How shall He not with Christ give us all things?

There is no division in the Father and Son relationship. Coequal. CoEternal. CoPowerful.

You don't understand rank. You see it through the eyes/lens of man.

You're going to need to battle more, unfortunately for you. The moment you turn your back and go back to your comfort zone the trinity is crumpled up in a pile of rubble and burning. If you are going to defend this, you better hunker down, and devote your entire life to it. That's what it's going to take.

I say that not only to you, but everyone here. Let's be honest. Your religion and doctrine of the trinity is very vulnerable. We see clearly that it's an extremely difficult doctrine to defend and we know that we can use the Bible to debunk it. We know the Bible doesn't really help the trinity at all. We're going to take the church back from the apostate trinitarians. Not immediately, but step by step we will and this time you won't have the government, the law, lynch mobs, inquisitors, or crusaders on your side to help you. Either watch it happen or try to stop it with debate.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

 

[Dizerner]

We're going to take the church back from the apostate trinitarians.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe in substitutionary atonement?

Do you believe Christ suffered the punishment for what your sins deserved?

I actually find that far more important than the Trinity in fact.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're going to need to battle more, unfortunately for you. The moment you turn your back and go back to your comfort zone the trinity is crumpled up in a pile of rubble and burning. If you are going to defend this, you better hunker down, and devote your entire life to it. That's what it's going to take.

I say that not only to you, but everyone here. Let's be honest. Your religion and doctrine of the trinity is very vulnerable. We see clearly that it's an extremely difficult doctrine to defend and we know that we can use the Bible to debunk it. We know the Bible doesn't really help the trinity at all. We're going to take the church back from the apostate trinitarians. Not immediately, but step by step we will and this time you won't have the government, the law, lynch mobs, inquisitors, or crusaders on your side to help you. Either watch it happen or try to stop it with debate.

John 14
28...the Father is greater than I.

You avoid any detailed interactions on the subject. You have since you've been here.

BTW partially quoting one verse while clearly criticizing Christ betrays your intent. Either way. Enjoy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just out of curiosity, do you believe in substitutionary atonement?

Do you believe Christ suffered the punishment for what your sins deserved?

I actually find that far more important than the Trinity in fact.

Hanging on to PSA while abandoning the Character of God.
Humm.

 

[Dizerner]

Hanging on to PSA while abandoning the Character of God.
Humm.

You know the Cross is the only way of salvation I would hope.

There is no moralistic God that saves by good works.

You will go to hell if Christ does not pay for your sins.

 

[TomL]

Which is what Paul was teaching the church of Philippi to believe about themselves. I hope you don't believe Paul was teaching them they are equal with God. Oh, dear.

So you believe that they were correct when they said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Not sure what your point is.

Um

Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

The subject here is the mind of Christ and equality with God. Nowhere is it suggested the Philippians should think themselves equal with God

John 5:18 (LEB) — 18 So on account of this the Jews were seeking even more to kill him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God

Here once again equality with God is the issue

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 20:27–28 (KJV 1900) — 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:8–9 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 9:6 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[civic]

You know the Cross is the only way of salvation I would hope.

There is no moralistic God that saves by good works.

You will go to hell if Christ does not pay for your sins.

He already paid for the sins of the whole world as per 1 John 2:2. No one is saved until they believe the gospel.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

You know the Cross is the only way of salvation I would hope.

There is no moralistic God that saves by good works.

You will go to hell if Christ does not pay for your sins.

The absence of sin doesn't grant you Eternal Life. It just makes you as if you're innocent or guiltless.

You should know I believe in the Atonement. I can't earn anything. I'm not deserving. There is more to salvation than just forgiveness.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Um

Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

The subject here is the mind of Christ and equality with God. Nowhere is it suggested the Philippians should think themselves equal with God

John 5:18 (LEB) — 18 So on account of this the Jews were seeking even more to kill him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God

Here once again equality with God is the issue

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 20:27–28 (KJV 1900) — 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:8–9 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 9:6 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Sometimes I like the LEB. I often desire to produce my own translation using Codex Alexandrinus as the primary source. Maybe I'll do this one day.....

I was thinking today of how disconnected Unitarians often are. Like you show above, they only live in short "blurbs" of words that are divorced from context and realty. That is the only way they can justify their position. Even then, they really can't.

For example

Hebrew 1:3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power.[a] When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (LEB)

The very words "right hand" have no meaning whatsoever to them.

 

[TomL]

Sometimes I like the LEB. I often desire to produce my own translation using Codex Alexandrinus as the primary source. Maybe I'll do this one day.....

I was thinking today of how disconnected Unitarians often are. Like you show above, they only live in short "blurbs" of words that are divorced from context and realty. That is the only way they can justify their position. Even then, they really can't.

For example

Hebrew 1:3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power.[a] When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (LEB)

The very words "right hand" have no meaning whatsoever to them.

This is pretty powerful

Hebrew 1:3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power.[a] When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (LEB)

 

[brightfame52]

This is pretty powerful

Hebrew 1:3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power.[a] When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (LEB)

This scripture shows that the people He died for, He purified them of their sins, that's Justification from sin. That word purified/purged is the greek word katharismos:

1. a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

They have no guilt of sin charged to them because of His Great sacrifice.