praise_yeshua
Active Member
Is there a rank in between husband and wife?
The Nature of God in the Atonement
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Is there a rank in between husband and wife?
civic
Active Member
There is the husband who has "authority " over the wife as in submits, just as we submit to Christ , believers submit to the elders and Christ submitted to the Father during His earthly ministry. So if you are using rank as in the above I would say yes. But all that to say there is mutual submission- submit to one another.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
There is a mystery here that involves relationship. It is why God created mankind. God didn't make a mistake. This is the core of the message of the Gospel. A message that "original sin" can never rightfully establish.
All I ask is that you consider it. We can discuss further if you like. Relationship among independent minds are very complicated. "Mysterious" is often nothing more than complexity that is difficult to understand.
The attempts to "dumb down" God's work into "original sin" is the confusion that Satan wants in our lives. After all....
Satan is a liar and THE DECEIVER. "Original sin" as preached is a false gospel of a fake peace. Don't get me wrong. I believe in sin. In fact, I probably see sin as having more of an impact in human lives that any of you do. The "guilt" associated with rebellion is deeper than the silliness man sees in the sin of Adam and Eve. It is the complicity in willingly embrace a lie. This is what damns mankind. This is very personal in every individual's life and has nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin itself. In this false gospel most believe, Adam and Eve become a "scape goat" for sinfulness.
Repentance is a Holy Thing brother. It is where man realizes what he has made himself in the eyes of God. This is extraordinarily emotional and resonates in every area of our soul. It is the travail associated with "the new birth".
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Is rank needed in the Holy Trinity? I know your answer.
I ask because of the relevance to relationship. I know you see perfect Unity existing among the Holy Trinity. If the Holy Trinity is analogous to an intimate relationship between a husband and wife, then Eternal perfection will ultimately be established in such an intimate bond.
Brother, it takes our experience in this in this life to understand that for which we are purposed.
I'm not saying rank isn't there in Christ and His Church. However, perfect unity is devoid of rank. Devoid of division.
civic
Active Member
For me I think of "roles" that differ better explain the relationships within the Tri-Unity of God than the word rank. I'm not saying there is no rank but that rank has more to do with roles and a mutual love that supersedes those roles so that its all done perfectly, good, loving- those one anothers that we are to do which reflect Gods nature,character, goodness, love, mercy, grace etc....... That sacrificial love that only comes from knowing God where its motivations are done in purity of heart, mind, soul.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Words....
Languages. We often say the same things... differently. Not criticizing you at all. Just saying that the limits that exists with us doesn't exist with God. "Of One mind and One will" as generally stated in Holy Trinity is paradoxical (I know you realize this. Just reviewing.)
This can denote a lack of division. Not that "THEY" "GOD" are not of willing minds independently but in perfect agreement they are of the same mind. Which can translate to what we see as "ROLES".
We (human beings) live the Trinity "relationship" in our very lives. Husband, Wife, Son. It is cycle that repeats over and over again throughout generations. We "battle" for unity that only exists in the Holy Trinity. Perfection.
Paradoxical to say the least.
Add the "twins"..... aspect in natural birth as corresponding to the Incarnation. I'm a twin myself. Twins run in my family... and come to "Experiencing God". "Experiencing God" is written in the very fabric of our making.
I'm not unorthodox in these beliefs other than what I believe about Augustine's "original sin" and all the nonsense of "concupiscentia".
civic
Active Member
I’m tracking along with the above and agreeWords....
We often say the same things... differently. Not criticizing you at all. Just saying that the limits that exists with us doesn't exist with God. "Of One mind and One will" as generally stated in Holy Trinity is paradoxical (I know you realize this. Just reviewing.)
This can denote a lack of division. Not that "THEY" "GOD" are not of willing minds independently but in perfect agreement they are of the same mind. Which can translate to what we see as "ROLES".
We (human beings) live the Trinity "relationship" in our very lives. Husband, Wife, Son. It is cycle that repeats over and over again throughout generations. We "battle" for unity that only exists in the Holy Trinity. Perfection.
Paradoxical to say the least.
Add the "twins"..... aspect in natural birth as corresponding to the Incarnation. I'm a twin myself. Twins run in my family... and come to "Experiencing God". "Experiencing God" is written in the very fabric of our making.
I'm not unorthodox in these beliefs other than what I believe about Augustine's "original sin" and all the nonsense of "concupiscentia".
Well, we mostly agree
The bible teaches the son is not guilty of the Father's sin
Ezekiel 18:20 (LEB) — 20 The person, the one sinning, will die. A son shall not bear the guilt of the father, and a father shall not bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him; the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.
Ezekiel 18:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 2 “What do you mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers, they ate unripe fruit, and the teeth of the child became blunt.’ 3 As I live, declares the Lord Yahweh, it will surely not any longer be appropriate for you to quote this proverb in Israel! 4 Look! All lives are mine. The lives of father and son alike are mine. The person sinning will die.
Jeremiah 31:29–30 (LEB) — 29 “In those days they will say no longer, ‘Parents have eaten unripe fruit, and the teeth of the children are set on edge.’ 30 But each will die because of his iniquity, everyone who eats the unripe fruit, their teeth will be set on edge.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (LEB) — 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, and children shall not be put to death because of their fathers; each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
2 Kings 14:6 (LEB) — 6 But the sons of the killers he did not kill, as it is written in the scroll of the law of Moses which Yahweh had commanded, saying, “Fathers should not be killed because of children, and children should not be killed because of fathers; but a man should die because of his own sin.”
2 Chronicles 25:4 (LEB) — 4 But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the law, in the scroll of Moses, where Yahweh commanded, saying, “Fathers shall not be put to death on account of the sons, and the sons shall not be put to death on account of the fathers, but each shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Joe
Active Member
Hello brother,
This statement right here agrees with the reading of 2 Cor 5:21 to be a sin offering for us and not sin for us.
The NLT states it quite well: "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2Co 5:21)
God delivered His own Son as an offering for our sins, and our Lord willingly incurred the penalty for our sin, death. As a lamb had to be spotless without defect under the OT sacrificial system, so too must the Son of Man who gives His life to bear the sin of humanity be without sin. And as the lamb died for the sins of the sinners under the OT system, so too does the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world by dying for our sins.
The sacrifice under the OT was holy unto the Lord, as without any doubt our Lord was holy unto His Father. The OT sacrifice never encountered God's wrath, as one needs to get his pound of flesh, but illustrates how God mercifully provided a representative for the people that dies for their sins; thus removing the sins from them and keeping them in covenant with Him.
In the OT system, the priests and people would lay their hands on the sacrifice confessing their sins that it was dying for. This gives us a glimpse of what God was doing with our Lord by laying upon Him the iniquity of us all. The OT sacrifice died explicitly for the sins of the people, so too does our Lord die for the sins of humanity that was laid upon Him by God.
When we think of iniquity laid upon Him, it means for what purpose He died. It was a judicial rendering from God that His own Son would die for humanity's sin. This does not make Him guilty, but He is holy unto God as One who bears the sins of the people.
"Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:18-19)
God Bless
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Also, we know that there is no right/establishment of Eternal Life without the death of the One who promised.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
While there is no doubt a sacrificial aspect of Atonement in the death of Jesus Christ there is also a "gifting" of benevolent will in life Eternal. BOTH are required for Eternal Life.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
The way "original sin" is preached, Christ would have been guilty through the seed of Mary.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Can you express the value of sin?
Is it WORTH Gold or Silver?
That is how man values sin. "Pay Tribute" and be done with sin.....
Such comes from evil......
Kenny
Active Member
Second Thessalonians 1:8–9 associates hell with a separation from God: “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” The misery of hell will include not only physical torture, but also the agony of being separated from God in a way never experienced before. At the judgment, Jesus will tell the wicked, “Depart from me” (Luke 13:27, ESV; cf. Psalm 6:8). Hell is where those sent away will go. GOT?
Joe
Active Member
The judgement for sin is death. Once the body dies the soul goes into sheol, hades, hell, the grave.
Our Lord died bodily and went into sheol, hades, hell, the grave and then resurrected to life, hallelujah!
My God became like me, died bodily for my sins, was in the belly of the earth, hades, hell, sheol for three days and nights and resurrected bodily defeating my enemy and justifying me to eternal life!
On the cross my Savior died on account of my sins. His sinless blood given over to death freed me from the guilt of sin, as He carried them away into death never to be remembered again. And resurrecting from the grave, hades, hell, sheol on the first day of the week after the sabbath makes Him the First Fruit of the dead!
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. (1Co 15:22-23)
What does our sin truly deserve? God said death, even the Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death.
God said about blood, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'"
What does your sin deserve? Death just the same as all of us. What did God say atoned for your sin? Blood, shed blood for your sin and mine.
What did the Lord shed on the cross? His blood for our sins, reconciling us to God.
Anything else is extra-biblical and unsupported by the Law, the prophets, and the Apostles; and all of this was given by God to us for knowledge and understanding.
God Bless
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So do tell... Tell us all what you know about Satan.
Do you desire vengeance? Only God has any rights in such vengeance. What do you expect for your own sins?
Joe
Active Member
Yes. Death is God's judgement for sin.
What happens with Satan is Irrelevant for many reasons. What is relevant is, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
All of mankind is resurrected from the dead and stand before Jesus Christ our Lord to face judgement.
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury."
"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
Death is and always will be God's judgement for sin.
God Bless
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It is good that you mention the second death.
There is more than one death that we face. Even when we are saved by the Grace of God, we are still faced with death. The first death. I believe many conflate this death with the second death. The second death is clearly associated with the rejection of Jesus Christ.
