atpollard
Active Member
What about when Jesus breathed the Spirit on the Apostles (pre Acts 2)?
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats false, the believers during Jesus Ministry that received Him were born of God Jn 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
civic
Active Member
that was a prequel ( temporary filling maybe or just a pledge ) and the sequel ( permanent filling ) was to follow
civic
Active Member
thats post Pentecost.
First, you made that claim and then simply quoted Romans 7:14-8:11, I could claim otherwise and then quote that very same passage. And nothing is really accomplished in the discussion by doing either.
Second, that is what section of Romans 7 & 8 appears to be talking about only to the one corrupted by Augustinian soteriology.
I will wait for Red to explain his own thoughts for Romans 7:18 for which he claimed the verse establishes that faith follows regeneration. Clearly that verse establishes no such thing, since it is not true regeneration in fact follows faith.
synergy
Active Member
Excellent Calvinism slaying verses. First belief is mentioned and only then is born of God mentioned.
Keep those Calvinism slaying verses coming, @brightfame52!
@Red Baker and @atpollard, in verse 14 of Romans 7, Paul says "I am of the flesh, sold under sin". He doesn't say "I WAS of the flesh, sold under sin". Clearly Paul is describing himself as he was at the time of writing that passage in Romans. That is true of the remaining verses in Romans 7. Therefore, when Paul says in Romans 7:18, that "nothing good dwells in me", he is not describing the unregenerated. The entire passage of Romans 7:7-28 is not a discussion of the difference between the regenerated and the unregenerated; rather, it is a discussion of the relation of sin and the Law, the Law that he says in Romans 7:1, "is binding on a person only as long as he lives".
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Morning JIm... Not to horn in I just wanted to give my opinion on this verse and it is Romans 7:18 does not address the order of salvation at all. Paul is describing the ongoing struggle with indwelling sin in the believer, not the state of an unregenerate person or the timing of regeneration relative to faith. The verse contains no reference to new birth, regeneration, or believing, and therefore cannot be used to establish that faith follows regeneration. That conclusion must be brought to the text rather than drawn from it.
Amen to that!!
However, we must be a little careful here. Because even though Paul is not addressing the order of salvation as such, he is addressing the consternation of the born again, the regenerated, concerning the Law and sin. When he says in Romans 7:1, "the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives", he is referring back to the discussion that began in chapter 6 where he speaks of those of us who have died to sin when we were baptized into Christ.
brightfame52
Active Member
No its not. Its during the time of His coming into the world amongst the jews, His own Jn 1:11-14
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 ;Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
It was during the time when He had been made flesh and dwelt among them. This is pre Pentecost, pre-Cross and in fact technically still under the OT Law Covenant era
@civic
Before there were Primitive Baptist, (which many of my forefathers were on my mother's side) there were men called Particular Baptist, of England (Samuel Richardson and many churches throughout Great Britain) taught regeneration "before" any spiritual acts could be done by man, and before them, all the way back to Augustine who was a man that had light before all went dark during the dark ages of the church unto the Reformation lead by men like Luther and Calvin, and a host of others. The invention of printing press (1440 A.D.) being the greatest means getting the truth out even unto the dark places of the earth.
@synery
So clear to him that understand:
You men/women are void of understanding and true biblical knowledge concerning this truth. All one needs to do is follow the flow of the context from verses 10-13 of John 1, and they will give you God's truth on regeneration and the new birth. Here it is:
1. Jesus Christ was in the world and the world was made by him since he was God manifest in the flesh, yet the world as a whole did not know him. Verse 10 Any disagreement here? Well, yes if you deny the deity of Christ, other than that, there should no disagreement.
2. Jesus came unto the Jewish people through whom he was born into the world, yet as a whole, the Jews did not receive him. Again, any disagreement concerning this truth from heaven? Should not be.
3. But, there were some that did receive him and the Holy Ghost tells us who they are: .....to them gave he power to become the sons of God... Notice TO THEM gave he power to become sons of God! There should be no disagreement concerning these words, if we follow the flow of them. Even more than this is the next verse which is the Holy Ghost's commentary concering verse 12!
4. Verse 13, clearly interprets for us verses 10-12 which clearly states: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
If any man reads this one scripture and continue to teach that a preacher holds the gift to get folks born again, or the sinner by his own will has the power to hear, believe repent, then that person is deliberately calling God's word a lair, and his true truer than the word of God. That is one proud person, with whom the judgment of God will fall upon to either correct him, or add to his darkness that he/she is showing. Selah
Really? No scripture are either for Calvinism, and certainly not Armenianism, scriptures declare God's testimony of the truth, and John 1:10-13 the Spirit of God is declaring a truth that you reject and fight against, which is not wise on your part, for you will surely lose this fight.
John 1:10-13
“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”So clear to him that understand:
Proverbs 8:9
“They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.”You men/women are void of understanding and true biblical knowledge concerning this truth. All one needs to do is follow the flow of the context from verses 10-13 of John 1, and they will give you God's truth on regeneration and the new birth. Here it is:
1. Jesus Christ was in the world and the world was made by him since he was God manifest in the flesh, yet the world as a whole did not know him. Verse 10 Any disagreement here? Well, yes if you deny the deity of Christ, other than that, there should no disagreement.
2. Jesus came unto the Jewish people through whom he was born into the world, yet as a whole, the Jews did not receive him. Again, any disagreement concerning this truth from heaven? Should not be.
3. But, there were some that did receive him and the Holy Ghost tells us who they are: .....to them gave he power to become the sons of God... Notice TO THEM gave he power to become sons of God! There should be no disagreement concerning these words, if we follow the flow of them. Even more than this is the next verse which is the Holy Ghost's commentary concering verse 12!
4. Verse 13, clearly interprets for us verses 10-12 which clearly states: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
If any man reads this one scripture and continue to teach that a preacher holds the gift to get folks born again, or the sinner by his own will has the power to hear, believe repent, then that person is deliberately calling God's word a lair, and his true truer than the word of God. That is one proud person, with whom the judgment of God will fall upon to either correct him, or add to his darkness that he/she is showing. Selah
@civic
Be back shortly to answer this ~ for anyone to believe is the height of bible ignorance, (no pun intended) hard to believe any person would go this far and say this.
civic
Active Member
No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time
Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”
Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
conclusion: calvinism has it all wrong. belief precedes life-the new birth as demonstrated in my other posts. the bible speaks with one voice in unity which calvinism contradicts and confuses its followers.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
Being born of God doesn't give perfect understanding. Peter stated some of Paul's writings were hard to understand, he said that to regenerate believers 2 Pet 3 16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Yet the disciples had a spiritual understanding Jesus was the Messiah the Son of God come in the flesh Matt 16:16=17
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
John wrote of such ones this 1 Jn 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 Jn 4 2
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Did Peter in Matt 16:16-17 confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh ? Yes, so that gave evidence he was of God, born of God
They were acted upon and influenced by the Spirit of God. Same with 1 Jn 5:1 and Jn 1:12-13
atpollard
Active Member
I apologize for assuming the sufficiency of the Word of God to speak for itself. Let me present a more formal argument for you:
SUBJECT: faith following regeneration
POSIT: Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!
Romans 7:14-25 [NASB]
- For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin.
- Paul is sold into bondage to sin. The state of being "sold into bondage" is the very definition of "NOT FREE". An individual sold into bondage is a SLAVE to that to which they are in bondage and, by definition, powerless to gain their own freedom. No slave ever freed themself by simply "wanting to be free".
- For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want [to do,] but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, that [the Law is] good. But now, no longer am I [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me.
- Paul is not denying that he DOES the sinful acts, he just admitted that he does them. Here Paul is claiming that he is not responsible for the sinful acts that he does because, as a slave, he has no choice in the matter. It is the sin within him (binding him) that compels the actions.
- For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me.
- Paul clearly emphasizes the two forces at work ... his FLESH (in bondage to sin in which "no good thing dwells") and "me" (Paul himself: his innermost being) that "wills" (desires) to do good, but cannot. His innermost being cannot do the good that he wills BECAUSE he is in bondage to his sinful flesh.
- I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
- Paul summarizes and repeats the point of the previous paragraph.
- For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, [the law] which is in my body's parts.
- There is a WAR between the "inner person" (who DESIRES good) and "my body". As a result, we (like Paul) are a PRISONER of sin. I have made the leap from Paul to application to "everyone", which is reasonable unless you believe that Paul alone struggled with this and YOU are born fully sanctified and free from bondage to sin ... so much holier than a "Pharisee of Pharisees".
- Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
- Paul asks and answers his own rhetorical question. Who, indeed will SET US FREE (as we are powerless to free ourselves from "bondage"). GOD will ... through JESUS CHRIST.
- NOTE: the solution to our bondage to sin is NOT found in our FREE WILL or in our FAITH or in our BELIEF ... it is found in GOD and in Jesus Christ. Scripture always points man to Jesus Christ for our salvation. Always.
- So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
- A brief "bunny trail". There are other "hardshell Calvinist" brothers of mine that argue men are incapable of even desiring to serve God. I understand where they draw that conclusion from, but based on verses like the above, I respectfully disagree. I know a number of people that are addicted to drugs. From those acquaintances and their struggles, I know that it is VERY POSSIBLE for a person to honestly desire to stop using drugs ... and still be completely controlled by the overwhelming and relentless physical drive ... desperate need ... to use or die. Sin appears to me as the ultimate "addiction" ... one that infects every member of the human race. So I disagree with my brothers and believe that it is possible to want what we are incapable of doing.
- Romans 8:1-11 [NASB]
- Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.
- Like the old saying goes, "whenever you see a 'therefore', stop, go back, and see what the 'therefore' is there for". Paul has just finished stating the problem of our "bondage to sin" and announced the solution in Jesus Christ". Therefore,
Paul will now expand on that "solution" ... NO CONDEMNATION in Christ (shades of John 3:18 in there).
- Like the old saying goes, "whenever you see a 'therefore', stop, go back, and see what the 'therefore' is there for". Paul has just finished stating the problem of our "bondage to sin" and announced the solution in Jesus Christ". Therefore,
- For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
- Note that the solution is found in JESUS, not in mankind (our free will, our belief, our faith).
- For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did:] sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
- God did ... not man did. Paul keeps reiterating the PROBLEM (our bondage to sin) and the SOLUTION (what God did).
- For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
- "who are" is a state of being, not an action that we do.
- For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
- You are probably tempted to claim a "gotcha" and argue that MAN is 100% responsible for this mind set on the spirit by CHOOSING to believe in God and exercising OUR FAITH ... however that interpretation of this verses is antithetical to everything that Paul has stated up to this point.
- Note also that those in the flesh (without this "Spirit of life") CANNOT ... are not able to ... please God.
- However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
- Here Paul is explicit that this "Spirit of life" just mention in the previous verses is "of God" and not "of man".
- But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
- Paul is explicit that this Spirit is "of God" and "of Christ" and it is in all the saints. This struggle of Paul is a universal struggle.
So let us now return to the "POSIT" ... Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!
- Starting at the end, Paul established that we are "have a will that is in bondage to sin", so that is the "pre-Christ condition of man.
- Moving back to "they MUST have a new man within them", Paul established that the "cure" for bondage to sin is the "Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ" dwelling within you. We could go to other verses to irrefutably prove the semantic point thst this equates to the phrase "new man", but most reasonable people would accept the equivalence between the phrases.
- From the beginning, we have "can do spiritual acts pleasing to God" and Paul was clear that "the mind set on the flesh is death" and "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God". No amount of lipstick on this pig will make those "in the flesh" able to "please God", so God has spoken on the matter.
Paul has confirmed in Romans 7:14-8:11 that "The Spirit of Christ must deliver us from our bondage to sin - making Christ in us - before we have a mind set on things of the Spirit that can please God." Therefore the POSIT (Before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, they MUST have a new man within them that DOES have a will that's not in bondage to sin!) is affirmed by scripture.
THE SUBJECT (conclusion):
As for the subject "faith following regeneration", if we define "regeneration" as "the Spirit of Christ in us, delivering us from bondage to sin" and "faith" as a "mind set on the Spirit", then Romans 7:14-8:11 does affirm that "faith" follows "regeneration".
If one defines "faith" and "regeneration" differently, then Romans 7:14-8:11 may or may not speak to that subject at all.
Oh, the word of God is indeed sufficient to speak for itself. But it certainly doesn't seem to speak to you if you believe that only a regenerate can come to a belief in God.
You do realize that Paul is speaking of his condition at the time that he is writing; a time in which he was regenerated and justified? In this passage, Paul is not describing how he once was before his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus but rather he is describing how he is after being regenerated. The entire passage of Romans 7:14-24 is a description of the regenerated.
It seems that perhaps you have started your commentary off in a state of confusion.
@Jim
Agreed.
You said: "That is true of the remaining verses in Romans 7."
Agreed.
You said: "Therefore, when Paul says in Romans 7:18, that "nothing good dwells in me", he is not describing the unregenerated."
Jim, actually Paul is perfectly describing the "two natures" that all of us have, the old man and the new man if one is born of God.
Being alive without the law, is when one is in his nature state having only the old man. When the commandment came, or when he was born of God and had a new nature created within him, sin came alive and he died to all hopes that he could please God in his natural state, or in his flesh.
God ordained the commandments as a religious system for justification, for the Law clearly declared that a man could live by keeping all its rules (Lev 18:5; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:12). Of course, He knew no man could keep it, so it was a schoolmaster to show us our need of Christ sand keeping is from ever trusting in our flesh. Galatians 3:19-25. After teh road of Damascus experience, Paul, like all other men born of the Spirit, found the commandment with promised life to only condemn him. He now understood the purpose of God giving the law. As we sing, “Hail Sovereign Love,” Sinai is no hiding place of safety for true worshipers and honest self-examiners. The Law proves condemnation and depravity and actually stirs up the lusts to further sins, and it cannot justify man, regenerate him, or sanctify him through the sinfulness of the flesh. Only Jesus Christ can do this for us.
Jim, again Paul is perfectly describing the "two natures" that all of us have, the old man and the new man if one is born of God. In our flesh dwells no good things, as a matter of fact, our flesh is at war with the law of God, and is not subject unto it, neither indeed can be. Our new man/mind loves and delights in the law of God and fully understands that it is spiritual, good, and holy. We confess in our new man, that we live in a body of sin and death and it is wretched and looks for deliverance only through our surety, Jesus Christ by whom we praise our God for. We dare not trust in our flesh for one second, much less for being our co-partner with Christ in our salvation from sin and condemnation.
You said: "Clearly Paul is describing himself as he was at the time of writing that passage in Romans."
Agreed.
You said: "That is true of the remaining verses in Romans 7."
Agreed.
You said: "Therefore, when Paul says in Romans 7:18, that "nothing good dwells in me", he is not describing the unregenerated."
Jim, actually Paul is perfectly describing the "two natures" that all of us have, the old man and the new man if one is born of God.
Romans 7:9
“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”Being alive without the law, is when one is in his nature state having only the old man. When the commandment came, or when he was born of God and had a new nature created within him, sin came alive and he died to all hopes that he could please God in his natural state, or in his flesh.
Romans 7:10
“And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.”God ordained the commandments as a religious system for justification, for the Law clearly declared that a man could live by keeping all its rules (Lev 18:5; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:12). Of course, He knew no man could keep it, so it was a schoolmaster to show us our need of Christ sand keeping is from ever trusting in our flesh. Galatians 3:19-25. After teh road of Damascus experience, Paul, like all other men born of the Spirit, found the commandment with promised life to only condemn him. He now understood the purpose of God giving the law. As we sing, “Hail Sovereign Love,” Sinai is no hiding place of safety for true worshipers and honest self-examiners. The Law proves condemnation and depravity and actually stirs up the lusts to further sins, and it cannot justify man, regenerate him, or sanctify him through the sinfulness of the flesh. Only Jesus Christ can do this for us.
Romans 7:15-18
“For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”Jim, again Paul is perfectly describing the "two natures" that all of us have, the old man and the new man if one is born of God. In our flesh dwells no good things, as a matter of fact, our flesh is at war with the law of God, and is not subject unto it, neither indeed can be. Our new man/mind loves and delights in the law of God and fully understands that it is spiritual, good, and holy. We confess in our new man, that we live in a body of sin and death and it is wretched and looks for deliverance only through our surety, Jesus Christ by whom we praise our God for. We dare not trust in our flesh for one second, much less for being our co-partner with Christ in our salvation from sin and condemnation.
