The Issue of Limited Atonement

[jeremiah1five]

You have it backwards, The Apostles were taught by the Spirit to interpret the OT scripture

Yes, and it was the Spirit that fist gave God's Word.

The same Spirit would not inspire men after Christ ascended to interpret anything contrary to what He earlier said. But THAT is what you're doing.

Saul was a rabbi and a Pharisee. He KNEW the Old Testament Scripture. After he became born-again the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL ONLY gave him the spiritual understanding of what was written before by the letter.
We, as born-again Christians do the same thing Saul did and that was take the Old Testament and try to understand what is written. We do not add things into the text when the text does not mention those things you want to insert.

I have also received revelation just as Saul did through studying the Old Testament under the anointing and in my study, I find NO COVENANT of blessing or salvation made by God with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE.

Around the year 750 BC Jeremiah was given a prophecy of a New Covenant between the God of Abraham and the House of Israel and the House of Judah - both kingdoms - and there is NO GENTILES named or mentioned as included in the text or in the New Covenant.

Fast forward to Jesus' birth, and the purpose of His coming. He came as prophesied in the Law by Moses and other prophets since then (i.e. Isaiah, Jeremiah), as God's lamb of God (identified by John Baptist) to deliver Israel from their enemies of which the main one was sin. He would come again as King. But He did not come the first time to deliver Israel from their political enemies, but from sin just as was commanded under the Law with regard to the sacrificial system of atonement. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law and this means He did not come to change the Law but to fulfill for any change - which in reality is impossible, even for God - would destroy the Law.

Gentiles were NEVER under the Law. The high priest NEVER offered sacrifices for the sins of Gentiles because they were not under the Law. That is history. So, how can you, a Gentile, now claim that Gentiles are saved when they were never under the Law of atonement between Israel and her God?

You are wrong. The Scripture says NOTHING about Gentiles being under the Law of atonement for they were NEVER under the Law to begin with.

What you are doing is adding to the Bible things not there. This makes you a false teacher to postulate these fallacies.
What did Jesus say about liars? They have the devil as their father.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That is your opinion, because your preconceived idea that there is no covenant that includes the Gentiles. That is a false concept, because it is clear from what God told Abraham (Gal 3:8 (Gen 12:3, Gen 22:18)) that the Gentiles were always going to be included in the New Covenant.

The overwhelming canvas of the OT Scripture shows that God was not only going to save the Jews, but people of all nations, tribes, tongues, and peoples through covenant with Jesus.

And where does God say that lie to Abram?

 

[jeremiah1five]

again

Um You subtract from the bible

Omitting the New Testament and even some Old Testament verses

Isaiah 49:6 (LEB) — 6 And he says, “It is trivial for you to be a servant for me, to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel. I will give you as a light to the nations, to be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

Isaiah 42:6 (LEB) — 6 “I am Yahweh; I have called you in righteousness, and I have grasped your hand and watched over you; and I have given you as a covenant of the people, as a light of the nations,

Isaiah 11:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, Which shall stand for an ensign of the people; To it shall the Gentiles seek: And his rest shall be glorious.





Even your Old Testament

Jesus came and instituted a New Covenant is His body and blood.

Jeremiah says the New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

There are NO GENTILEs included in the text or in the New Covenant.

You are deceived and lying about God and His Word.

Who did Jesus say was the father of liars?

 

[jeremiah1five]

The many died because they had sinned.

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

Adam brought death into the world, and all people have faced this because they have sinned.

BTW look at the phrase all people. It does not mean all the elect

The same phrase appears here

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

Where in Jeremiah 31:31-34 are Gentiles named or included in the text or in this covenant, the one and the same covenant Jesus instituted in His body and blood?

You cannot do it. That's because there are NO GENTILES included in the text of the covenant prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34.

You need to first get saved and then become a disciple and learn the truth of God.

 

[TomL]

Where in Jeremiah 31:31-34 are Gentiles named or included in the text or in this covenant, the one and the same covenant Jesus instituted in His body and blood?

You cannot do it. That's because there are NO GENTILES included in the text of the covenant prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34.

You need to first get saved and then become a disciple and learn the truth of God.

You ignored

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

and assume God cannot bring any he wants into the covenant.

Jeremiah 31 does not even speak of Christ or how he would bring about the covenant, so it is not a complete revelation.

You have to get that and have faith in the data that comes from the New Testament.

Instead of trusting all the New Testament, however, you select what you prefer and ignore the rest.

Further, you are contrary to being a light to the gentiles.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, That thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

And contrary to God's word, which speaks of salvation unto the ends of the earth.

 

[TomL]

Jesus came and instituted a New Covenant is His body and blood.

Which you got from the New Testament while ignoring truth from the same source

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.



A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ is therefore a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

Jeremiah says the New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

There are NO GENTILEs included in the text or in the New Covenant.

You are deceived and lying about God and His Word.

Who did Jesus say was the father of liars?

Jeremiah is incomplete, however, as it does not mention Christ or mention how He would bring the covenant about.

You have to get that from a source you do not fully trust and handle according to your own desires.

But the same source shows

Acts 9:15But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.
Acts 10:45And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
Acts 11:1Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had accepted the word of God.
Acts 11:18And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
Acts 13:46Both Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you, since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life! Behold, we are turning to the Gentiles!
Acts 13:47For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have appointed you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you would bring salvation to the end of the earth.’
Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of the Lord. And all those who were designated for eternal life believed.

You are unfaithful to God's command and the practice he brought about.

Perhaps you should consider repentance as you reject the word of even He who brought about the covenant.

John 6:51 (LEB) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

John 12:46I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness.

John 12:47And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[TomL]

Yes, and it was the Spirit that fist gave God's Word.

The same Spirit would not inspire men after Christ ascended to interpret anything contrary to what He earlier said. But THAT is what you're doing.

Um, it is not contrary to say God made a covenant with the Jews and later included the Gentiles in it.

Your argument is without merit

 

[Doug Brents]

Ezk 18 hasn't nothing to do with it. There has been Two Federal Heads, Christ and Adam which both acted as Heads and Representatives of their offspring . Ezk 18 is National civil matters under the Old Covenant legislation.

Ahh, so God saying He will not hold sins of the father against the son, or sins of the sons against the father is referring to civil matters? Got it. You keep shoving your head in that hole.

You need to follow the Apostles Doctrine, for they understand the Old Testament far better than we and try to understand Rom 5:12ff

Rom 5:12 - "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned"
I need go no further than this. Death entered the world through sin, because one man sinned. And then death spread to everyone else, not because that one man sinned, but because all others committed sin as well. Cain was not guilty of Adam's sin. He committed his own sin, for which he died.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You ignored

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

and assume God cannot bring any he wants into the covenant.

Jeremiah 31 does not even speak of Christ or how he would bring about the covenant, so it is not a complete revelation.

You have to get that and have faith in the data that comes from the New Testament.

Instead of trusting all the New Testament, however, you select what you prefer and ignore the rest.

Further, you are contrary to being a light to the gentiles.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, That thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

And contrary to God's word, which speaks of salvation unto the ends of the earth.

I haven't ignored Titus.
It contradicts the Old Testament and if a Scripture - OR AN INTERPRETATION - contradicts the Old Testament then the interpretation is wrong.

Your interpretation of the word "world" does not refer to the "world" of everybody but the "world" of Jews when it is interpreted in context to the Old Testament.

The letters of the New Testament are only the writer's interpretation of Old Testament Scripture. Your interpretation of the word "world" falls short of truth when you look at what Jesus is quoting Jesus' words in John 17 where the High Priest - Jesus - is about to offer Himself as sacrifice FOR THE SINS OF ISRAEL Jesus says:

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:8–9.

If you understand the ministry of the high priest as commanded by God under the Mosaic Covenant his service to God is to PRAY FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL in covenant with God and TO OFFER SACRIFICES IN SERVICE TO GOD UNDER THE LAW. He has to follow the Law commanded by God.

You interpret Titus' "world" as meaning everyone, but Jesus says He doesn't pray for everyone. As High Priest Jesus follows the Law and prays for the children of Israel identified as "THEM" in John 17.

Thus, Jesus doesn't pray for the "world" (everyone) and so the "world" of everyone is WITHOUT A PRAYER.

Has anyone ever taught you how to interpret the New Testament because the writers of the New Testament letters ALL interpret the Old Testament as written and while the writers of the New Testament epistles are correct, it is YOUR INTERPRETATION that is in error, especially your identification of "world" as meaning all humankind. It doesn't refer to all humankind. It is a Greek word "kosmos" interpreted in context to Jews NOT all humankind. The Bible does not teach Universalism. Get a clue.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Which you got from the New Testament while ignoring truth from the same source

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.



A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ is therefore a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.




Jeremiah is incomplete, however, as it does not mention Christ or mention how He would bring the covenant about.

You have to get that from a source you do not fully trust and handle according to your own desires.

But the same source shows

Acts 9:15But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.
Acts 10:45And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
Acts 11:1Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had accepted the word of God.
Acts 11:18And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
Acts 13:46Both Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you, since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life! Behold, we are turning to the Gentiles!
Acts 13:47For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have appointed you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you would bring salvation to the end of the earth.’
Acts 13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of the Lord. And all those who were designated for eternal life believed.

You are unfaithful to God's command and the practice he brought about.

Perhaps you should consider repentance as you reject the word of even He who brought about the covenant.

John 6:51 (LEB) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

John 12:46I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness.

John 12:47And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrew people.

They are its central figure in this text and as such it must be understood in context to the Hebrew people.

You're not understanding Hebrews in context to the Hebrew people, and this means your interpretation is wrong.

Grow up and learn how to interpret the New Testament.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Um, it is not contrary to say God made a covenant with the Jews and later included the Gentiles in it.

Your argument is without merit

Show me the Scripture and tell me the name of this Gentile God made covenant with.

 

[Doug Brents]

And where does God say that lie to Abram?

Read the verses that I cited; that is what the citation is for.

 

[brightfame52]

The many died because they had sinned.

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

Adam brought death into the world, and all people have faced this because they have sinned.

BTW look at the phrase all people. It does not mean all the elect

The same phrase appears here

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

All men had a solidarity in Adam, when he sinned, all his seed in him sinned, and as promised, they died, be dead Rom 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Christs Seed is only the elect as He is, the seed of Abraham.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, and it was the Spirit that fist gave God's Word.

The same Spirit would not inspire men after Christ ascended to interpret anything contrary to what He earlier said. But THAT is what you're doing.

Saul was a rabbi and a Pharisee. He KNEW the Old Testament Scripture. After he became born-again the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL ONLY gave him the spiritual understanding of what was written before by the letter.
We, as born-again Christians do the same thing Saul did and that was take the Old Testament and try to understand what is written. We do not add things into the text when the text does not mention those things you want to insert.

I have also received revelation just as Saul did through studying the Old Testament under the anointing and in my study, I find NO COVENANT of blessing or salvation made by God with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE.

Around the year 750 BC Jeremiah was given a prophecy of a New Covenant between the God of Abraham and the House of Israel and the House of Judah - both kingdoms - and there is NO GENTILES named or mentioned as included in the text or in the New Covenant.

Fast forward to Jesus' birth, and the purpose of His coming. He came as prophesied in the Law by Moses and other prophets since then (i.e. Isaiah, Jeremiah), as God's lamb of God (identified by John Baptist) to deliver Israel from their enemies of which the main one was sin. He would come again as King. But He did not come the first time to deliver Israel from their political enemies, but from sin just as was commanded under the Law with regard to the sacrificial system of atonement. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law and this means He did not come to change the Law but to fulfill for any change - which in reality is impossible, even for God - would destroy the Law.

Gentiles were NEVER under the Law. The high priest NEVER offered sacrifices for the sins of Gentiles because they were not under the Law. That is history. So, how can you, a Gentile, now claim that Gentiles are saved when they were never under the Law of atonement between Israel and her God?

You are wrong. The Scripture says NOTHING about Gentiles being under the Law of atonement for they were NEVER under the Law to begin with.

What you are doing is adding to the Bible things not there. This makes you a false teacher to postulate these fallacies.
What did Jesus say about liars? They have the devil as their father.

The New testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.Havent you ever heard, the Old Test was the New Test concealed, and New Test the Old Test revealed ?

 

[Doug Brents]

And where does God say that lie to Abram?

Oh, and I forgot to mention: God doesn't lie. So the fact that what God says contradicts your personal beliefs should make you question your beliefs, not question what God says.

 

[brightfame52]

Ahh, so God saying He will not hold sins of the father against the son, or sins of the sons against the father is referring to civil matters? Got it. You keep shoving your head in that hole.

Rom 5:12 - "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned"
I need go no further than this. Death entered the world through sin, because one man sinned. And then death spread to everyone else, not because that one man sinned, but because all others committed sin as well. Cain was not guilty of Adam's sin. He committed his own sin, for which he died.

Ezk has nothing to do with the Headship teaching of Rom 5 between Adam and Christ. So what Adam did God reckoned it as his seed doing it in him and likewise what Christ did God reckoned it as His seed doing it in Him, end of story. Ezk 18 has nothing to do with it

 

[Doug Brents]

Ezk has nothing to do with the Headship teaching of Rom 5 between Adam and Christ. So what Adam did God reckoned it as his seed doing it in him and likewise what Christ did God reckoned it as His seed doing it in Him, end of story. Ezk 18 has nothing to do with it

You are not reading all the words of the verses you cling to.

We are not held accountable for Adam's sin. We are held accountable to our own sin.
Adam sinned. And his sin let sin into the world. And because sin is in the world, everyone else has sinned also. It is each individual's sin for which he is condemned, not Adam's sin.

 

[brightfame52]

You are not reading all the words of the verses you cling to.

We are not held accountable for Adam's sin. We are held accountable to our own sin.
Adam sinned. And his sin let sin into the world. And because sin is in the world, everyone else has sinned also. It is each individual's sin for which he is condemned, not Adam's sin.

I read what you posted, we dont agree on Rom 5:12

 

[Doug Brents]

I read what you posted, we dont agree on Rom 5:12

It doesn't matter whether you read what I post or not. What matters is that you read all of what Scripture says, and accept it as truth.
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned."
Read the verse carefully, and work through all of the phrases (hint: don't skip a word).
Sin entered into the world through one man's (Adam's) sin.
Death came into the world through sin.
Death then spread to all mankind.
Why did death spread to all mankind?
Was it because everyone was born of Adam's seed? No.
Was it because everyone was born in a world where death existed? No.
Finish the verse and God tells us why death spread to everyone: "because all sinned."

You don't have to agree with me, but you do have to accept what Scripture says. Let Scripture adjust your doctrine. Don't try to force Scripture to conform to your doctrine.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Read the verses that I cited; that is what the citation is for.

Unnecessary.
The foundation is the Old Testament. Any interpretation that violates what is written in the Old Testament is wrong.
Study the Old Testament. Once you understand that then you are in a better position to interpret the New Testament epistles considering the Old Testament to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The New Testament complements the Old Testament. It's YOUR interpretation that is wrong.
Saul and the writers of the New Covenant letters agree with the Old Testament. It's YOUR interpretation that is WRONG.