jeremiah1five
Active Member
If you know Scripture, it is.
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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brightfame52
Active Member
I know race worship is idolatry
jeremiah1five
Active Member
If Jesus wanted to save non-Hebrew Gentiles, He would have prayed for them right before going to the cross:
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:8–9.
In John 17 above Jesus as High Priest does two things which the high priest does always under the Law, that is, pray for the people of God in covenant, and offer sacrifices for the people of God in covenant. Jesus, as High Priest, does neither in John 17 in a prayer Martin Luther calls the "Holy of Holies" Prayer.
If you read John 17 Jesus makes a distinction between "the world" and "Them" (the children of Israel, including the 12 disciples.
From the cross Jesus completes His Ministry as High Priest before He is slain and says, "Father, forgive THEM for they know not what they do."
"Them" and "THEY" in John 17 are identified as the disciples, and those who will believe through their testimony. But before that, Jesus sanctifies Himself right before the cross exactly doing what the high priest under the Law is commanded by God to do.
Besides this, Saul, as rabbi and Pharisee says:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
In both passages if God wanted to atone for the sins of non-Hebrew Gentiles they would be under the Law which for centuries before Jesus the high priest ministered before God and prayed and offered sacrifices for the children of Israel - and Gentiles.
BUT nowhere does the high priest leave Israel, go to the Gentiles that surround Israel, and offer sacrifices for them and that's because Gentiles are not under the Law nor are they included in the sacrificial system of atonement instructed and commanded by God.
Gentiles are NOT atoned by Christ.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
So was incest before God commanded against it.
You ignored the facts
God commanded the disciples to be a light to the gentiles so that salvation would come to the ends of the earth.
Gentiles were, in fact, saved.
Romans 1:16 (LEB) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
So in your theology the gentiles must be saved apart from any atonement.
And the gospel does not concern atonement.
Your theology is contradicted by multiple verses of scripture.
Ephesians 2:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands, 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 3:21–30 (LEB) — 21 But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins, 26 in the forbearance of God, for the demonstration of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just and the one who justifies the person by faith in Jesus. 27 Therefore, where is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, also of the Gentiles, 30 since God is one, who will justify those who are circumcised by faith and those who are uncircumcised through faith.
In your theology however, Christ's death must not be the way atonement or the way ransom is made for Christ died for all.
Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
2 Corinthians 5:15 (LEB) — 15 And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.
1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
but according to your theology, propitiation must not have been made through the death of Christ.
You mean according to your theology
Ezekiel 18:20–22 (KJV 1900) — 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
brightfame52
Active Member
No according to Gods word, when man sinned in Adam, he died spiritually to God Rom 5:15
15 ;But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Thats it, naturally by our union with Adam, we died spiritually, our only hope now is to be born again, made alive
Sorry but men died because of their sin
Romans 5:12 (NASB95) — 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Not Adam's
Adam brought death into the world and all died because of their sin
BTW The gift of grace does not result in the eternal life of men unless their action, that is belief in Christ comes to pass.
brightfame52
Active Member
Man is dead Romans 5:15
Again, because of his sin, not Adam's.
Romans 5:12 (NIV84) — 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
And the son is not charged with the sins of the father.
Ezekiel 18:14–20 (NIV84) — 14 “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: 15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor’s wife. 16 He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. 17 He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. 19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Being a light and being in covenant with the Hebrews of Abraham's seed are two very opposite and different things.
But I notice that when you come across two seeming opposing passages of Scripture it doesn't engender more study, you merely choose the one that seems to support your belief-system. That is not what a true Christian does.
Show me in Genesis 12, 15, and 17, where God included Gentiles in the Abraham Covenant.
Greek means "Hellenized" not Gentile. Hellenized as in Jews who grew up heavily influenced by Greek culture.
God saves through covenant. God also stays within covenant and what He began with Abraham He completes with Christ. And since Jesus died under the Law, under the Ceremonial substitutionary sacrificial system UNDER THE LAW then just as the animal was sacrificed for hundreds of years, every year to atone for the sins of the children of Israel there is no evidence the high priest left Israel and travelled to the Gentile nations that surrounded Israel and offer sacrifices for them. Gentiles got nuthin' coming from the Lord for the are outside the covenants the Jews have with God.
The "gospel" means "good news." And when God sent His lamb of God to die to atone for the sins of the children of Israel, then yes, that is good news. THAT is "gospel."
Nope. My theology is to take Scripture as written. I don't add, change, or subtract from what is written. YOU DO!
The above passage fits nicely and identifies mixed-race Jews who grew up Gentile in Greek culture. These lived for 29-35 generations assimilated into Greek culture, who lived in Gentile lands and remained in Gentile lands while a small remnant left Babylon under permission of Cyrus the Great to rebuild the wall of the city and the Temple.
Saul is rabbi and Pharisee. He was taught at the feet of Gamaliel, who was a Jew and a great teacher and not even he taught Gentiles were in covenant with Jews. Saul would never seek to circumcise Gentiles or to compel them to obedience to the Law. The reason? They were not ever in covenant with God. So why do you teach something that's not biblical?
"World" of Jews. The word "world" does not mean everybody ever born or will be born. The Mosaic Covenant covered only the children of Israel. Thus, the word must be in context to this truth.
Christ died in accordance with the Law of Moses. He did not change or destroy the Law. He dies in the same fashion as the animal which was sacrificed for the children of Israel. The blood of the animal sacrificed was sprinkled upon the children of Israel. NOWHERE was it sprinkled upon Gentiles because Gentiles did not live among the Jews.
The Greek word "every" means "each." In other words Christ died for each Hebrew person ever born in covenant with God.
Show me in thew Pentateuch where God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
brightfame52
Active Member
When Paul or any other God sent preacher say like Phillip the evangelist, when using scripture and pointing out exactly for whom Christ died, no doubt they would have expounded unto them Isa 53:11,12
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The New Testament scriptures follows suite Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The word many denotes a large numerous portion even beyond the restricted nation of israel as to include a large amount of from other nations.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The New Testament scriptures follows suite Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The word many denotes a large numerous portion even beyond the restricted nation of israel as to include a large amount of from other nations.
brightfame52
Active Member
@TomL
Adams sin was his sin, God considered all men in the beginning to have a solidarity in and with Adam and so when he sinned, all men sinned Rom 5:12,15
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned[in solidarity with Adam]:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Adams sin was his sin, God considered all men in the beginning to have a solidarity in and with Adam and so when he sinned, all men sinned Rom 5:12,15
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned[in solidarity with Adam]:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Sorry but the text does not state Adam's sin became theirs.
Adding to scripture is not how one attains an accurate theology.
And we have already seen children are not guilty of their fathers sins.
Ezekiel 18:19–22 (LEB) — 19 “Yet you say, ‘Why does the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ And since the son does justice and righteousness and he keeps all of my statutes and does them, he shall surely live! 20 The person, the one sinning, will die. A son shall not bear the guilt of the father, and a father shall not bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him; the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him. 21 But if the wicked returns from all of his sins that he has done and he keeps all of my statutes and he does justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die! 22 All of his transgressions that he committed will not be remembered against him. Through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.
As was noted
Um the New Covenant is for all
You ignored the facts
found in the New Testament
God commanded the disciples to be a light to the gentiles so that salvation would come to the ends of the earth.
but ignored the fact Gentiles were, in fact, saved.
Romans 1:16 (LEB) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
note the Greeks are an addition to the Jews
So in your theology the gentiles must be saved apart from any atonement.
And the gospel does not concern atonement.
The light, it should be noted, is a pathway leading to life.
Well, guess what? The Bible speaks of Gentiles being saved, and so your claim no covenant is offered non-Jews is clearly busted.
brightfame52
Active Member
All men had a solidarity with Adam when he sinned, so by that union in him all sinned. Rom 5:12
jeremiah1five
Active Member
INCORRECT: (Here's the Scripture but that doesn't matter to you, does it)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31.
And the LORD repeats Himself for those who don't agree with what He said earlier:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
Jeremiah 31:33.
The New Covenant doesn't include Tom L., or other Gentiles.
Being a light and not being in the New Covenant are two very different things.
"Greeks" does not mean "Gentile." The word is "Hellens" which refers to Hellenized Jews. There is no such thing as Hellenized Gentiles.
The atonement is only ONE of hundreds of gospels in Scripture.
The light is a pathway so one doesn't stumble when they walking in darkness. It says nothing about salvation.
You are lost.
brightfame52
Active Member
@jeremiah1five
That Covenant promise includes Gentiles, its a Gospel Promise, but it was a Mystery Eph 3:4-6
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise[Covenant] in Christ by the gospel:
Its obvious the Spirit hasnt revealed this to you, may God be pleased to give you that revelation
That Covenant promise includes Gentiles, its a Gospel Promise, but it was a Mystery Eph 3:4-6
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise[Covenant] in Christ by the gospel:
Its obvious the Spirit hasnt revealed this to you, may God be pleased to give you that revelation
Sorry, but you are stuck in the Old Testament.
And just because it is stated a new covenant was made with Israel, no evidence at all is presented that God could not extend it to the gentiles.
You are also stuck with the fact Gentiles are spoken of as having been offered and given salvation should they believe in Christ.
And the New Covenant involves the blood of Christ.
1 Cor 11:25Likewise also the cup, after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
and it is poured out on many
Matt 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
You simply ignore the New Testament which shows gentiles are brought into the covenent
Ephesians 2:11–22 (LEB) — 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands, 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Sorry Rom 5:12 does not say that Adam's sin became theirs.
Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.
It simply states death extended to all people because all sinned.
And you just ignored this.
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