The Issue of Limited Atonement

[brightfame52]

Sorry, that is called eisegesis

There is no mention of the elect here, nor does the term elect define the terms used

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Will you ever believe scripture?

The atonement is limited to them Christ died for and saved them by obtaining for them eternal redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[TomL]

The atonement is limited to them Christ died for and saved them by obtaining for them eternal redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Christ died for all. The benefit of the atonement, however, is applied to only those who believe.

Heb 9:12 The US references believers

 

[TomL]

@TomL

Tom, I have answered your scriptures a few times over last year, and all you do is post them again as though they went unanswered. I would be happy to do so again, only if you would address my answers of those scriptures that you post over and over again. I'll address them alter today, if time permits, but for sure by tomorrow~no problem.

Not that I have seen and you certainly do not do so here

Tom, I'm not a typical Calvinist, as you should know, but will know once I begin to post answering your weak arguments. Shedd is a half baked Calvinist, I have never read very much of his writings, because he not much different than the average Armenians.

Shedd is a well-received Calvinist, and he is quite biblical here.

And you have done is assumed a view of atonement and posited an argument raised by Owen.

 

[TomL]

That not what the verse says. It says God is reconciling the world, every person who has ever lived according to some, to Himself. The only person mentioned in this verse is God. Is He succesful?

Sorry but it is exactly what it states

God has reconciled the world to himself. It is now up to those in the world to be reconciled.

2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (NASB95) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

He is successful in what he accomplished. However as the text shows there remains the need for each man to be reconciled

 

[Presby02]

Sorry but it is exactly what it states

God has reconciled the world to himself. It is now up to those in the world to be reconciled.

2 Corinthians 5:19–20 (NASB95) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

He is successful in what he accomplished. However as the text shows there remains the need for each man to be reconciled

Okay then the world is reconciled. Every last person. Everyone is saved. He does not count their trespasses against them or the whole world.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ died for all. The benefit of the atonement, however, is applied to only those who believe.

Heb 9:12 The US references believers

The all Christ died for it obtained eternal redemption for, they are saved from the penalty of sin Heb 9:12


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now I hope you realize everyone isnt delivered from the penalty of their sins. See redemption here lutrósis:

(in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release. specifically, redemption from the penalty of sin: Hebrews 9:12.

So you either #1 accept limited effectual saving atonement or #2 promote universalism or #3 deny the saving effect of Christs death. Take your pick

 

[brightfame52]

Another scripture that points out the limited atonement for a particular people, the Spiritual House of David Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

To it Jesus is the raised up horn of salvation according to the scriptures Lk 1:68-70

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

This is Gospel Truth Paul preached Acts 13:34

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

 

[civic]

You cant see it

Projecting

 

[brightfame52]

Limited by Covenant Design,

What most dont realize, the atonement of Christ, though not limited to its geographical scope, it is limited in its design, its a Covenant Salvation for a Covenant People Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament/covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The specific people is a chosen people name Israel Heb 8:10-12

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 ;For I will be merciful to their[House of Israel] unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now this Israel isnt ethnic national israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, composed of both spiritual jews and Gentiles. Abrahams Spiritual Seed via Christ Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed[Israel], and heirs according to the promise.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ our Passover

1 Cor 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Now who are the us ?

Its Gods called chosen people, recall Paul had earlier in the letter stated this of them

1 Cor 1:23-28

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

And as it was according to old test scripture type, the Passover lamb wasn't provided for all mankind, for instance, it was not provided for the reprobate egyptians, God had already determined their destruction with their leader pharoah. To make it clear, Jesus wasn't the Passover lamb for all mankind, but for Gods chosen and called people. God made no Passover provision for the world in general which is condemned. Jn 17:9

 

[civic]

Christ our Passover

1 Cor 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Now who are the us ?

Its Gods called chosen people, recall Paul had earlier in the letter stated this of them

1 Cor 1:23-28


And as it was according to old test scripture type, the Passover lamb wasn't provided for all mankind, for instance, it was not provided for the reprobate egyptians, God had already determined their destruction with their leader pharoah. To make it clear, Jesus wasn't the Passover lamb for all mankind, but for Gods chosen and called people. God made no Passover provision for the world in general which is condemned. Jn 17:9

The Passover only applies to those who by faith applied the blood to their doorposts.

next........................


so the Passover today only applies to those who believe/receive the gospel by faith in the atoning blood of christ.

conclusion: no faith then no application of the blood for the forgiveness of ones sins.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

The Apostle Paul said, speaking of the antitype of Israel’s Passover lamb, "… For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" (I Corinthians 5:7). To universalize the pronoun "us" in this text and make it apply in any sense to the reprobate world is to bedim the glory of the atonement. A sufficiency, the generality of which is such that it makes no distinction whatsoever between the people of God and those of the devil, is far too general for the Scriptures. God does not deal with the non-elect world through sufficient grace, but with sufficient and unadulterated justice, which provides no measure of atoning sufficiency, but eternal and merited suffering.

God’s counsel is eternal and so are all His decrees. Thus, the decree of unpardonableness against the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is eternal (Matthew 12:31-32). Does it not follow then, seeing that contradictory decrees cannot emanate from God, that He would not decree an atoning sufficiency for a sin that He decreed never to forgive? Pharaoh is an unmistakable type of Satan. He was bent on the elimination of Moses, a type of Christ, and on the annihilation of Israel, a type of God’s elect. His reprobation was glaringly manifest, and it was God’s eternal intention to drown him in the Red Sea (Romans 9:17); as it is God’s purpose to cast Satan, the antitype of Pharaoh, into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

In view of this, I ask, Did the atoning sufficiency of Israel’s Lamb extend unto Pharaoh?
"... The Lord doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel" (Exodus 11:7). This "difference" which distinguished Israel from Egypt was the Passover lamb. God did not give Egypt a Passover lamb, and consequently, no atonement sufficiency was provided for Egypt. When atoning blood is denied a people, they are left to themselves, and people left to themselves have never been objects of atonement sufficiency. Sufficiency is a vital part of God’s redemptive purpose for His people, and that purpose and sufficiency corresponds precisely with the number of names eternally registered in the Lamb’s book of life.

Knowledge of the importance and purpose of the lamb was limited to Israel. Sprinkling of the blood of the lamb was limited to Israel. The promise of God, wherein He said, "When I see the blood I will pass over you," was limited to Israel. All redemptive or atoning benefits, including sufficiency, were limited to Israel. Conversely, the death curse of the firstborn was visited upon the household of Pharaoh and all the land of Egypt (Exodus 12:29). God’s infinite holiness and inflexible justice sees the non-elect as unatoned for sinners, and has provided for them smiting rather than sufficiency. The only thing God ever does with sin is smite it, and God’s atoning Lamb was not smitten with as much as one stripe for any beyond the limits of His shed blood.

The Passover only applies to those who by faith applied the blood to their doorposts.

next........................


so the Passover today only applies to those who believe/receive the gospel by faith in the atoning blood of christ.

conclusion: no faith then no application of the blood for the forgiveness of ones sins.

hope this helps !!!

The Passover according to scripture, OT was a provision limited to Israel, Gods chosen people. Remember the Gospel Paul preached, Christ died for our sins according to scripture 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Then he writes who our sins means 1 Cor 5:7

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Only God determined who the passover Lamb was appointed for, Faith believes the testimony of God. The egptians could not have had faith in the passover lamb because it wasnt a provision for them.

 

[civic]

The Apostle Paul said, speaking of the antitype of Israel’s Passover lamb, "… For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" (I Corinthians 5:7). To universalize the pronoun "us" in this text and make it apply in any sense to the reprobate world is to bedim the glory of the atonement. A sufficiency, the generality of which is such that it makes no distinction whatsoever between the people of God and those of the devil, is far too general for the Scriptures. God does not deal with the non-elect world through sufficient grace, but with sufficient and unadulterated justice, which provides no measure of atoning sufficiency, but eternal and merited suffering.

God’s counsel is eternal and so are all His decrees. Thus, the decree of unpardonableness against the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is eternal (Matthew 12:31-32). Does it not follow then, seeing that contradictory decrees cannot emanate from God, that He would not decree an atoning sufficiency for a sin that He decreed never to forgive? Pharaoh is an unmistakable type of Satan. He was bent on the elimination of Moses, a type of Christ, and on the annihilation of Israel, a type of God’s elect. His reprobation was glaringly manifest, and it was God’s eternal intention to drown him in the Red Sea (Romans 9:17); as it is God’s purpose to cast Satan, the antitype of Pharaoh, into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

In view of this, I ask, Did the atoning sufficiency of Israel’s Lamb extend unto Pharaoh?
"... The Lord doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel" (Exodus 11:7). This "difference" which distinguished Israel from Egypt was the Passover lamb. God did not give Egypt a Passover lamb, and consequently, no atonement sufficiency was provided for Egypt. When atoning blood is denied a people, they are left to themselves, and people left to themselves have never been objects of atonement sufficiency. Sufficiency is a vital part of God’s redemptive purpose for His people, and that purpose and sufficiency corresponds precisely with the number of names eternally registered in the Lamb’s book of life.

Knowledge of the importance and purpose of the lamb was limited to Israel. Sprinkling of the blood of the lamb was limited to Israel. The promise of God, wherein He said, "When I see the blood I will pass over you," was limited to Israel. All redemptive or atoning benefits, including sufficiency, were limited to Israel. Conversely, the death curse of the firstborn was visited upon the household of Pharaoh and all the land of Egypt (Exodus 12:29). God’s infinite holiness and inflexible justice sees the non-elect as unatoned for sinners, and has provided for them smiting rather than sufficiency. The only thing God ever does with sin is smite it, and God’s atoning Lamb was not smitten with as much as one stripe for any beyond the limits of His shed blood.

The Passover according to scripture, OT was a provision limited to Israel, Gods chosen people. Remember the Gospel Paul preached, Christ died for our sins according to scripture 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Then he writes who our sins means 1 Cor 5:7

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Only God determined who the passover Lamb was appointed for, Faith believes the testimony of God. The egptians could not have had faith in the passover lamb because it wasnt a provision for them.

Nope Jesus is our Passover its all about Him and available to all people, Jews and Gentiles alike. He is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world. John 1:29 cf 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25, Matthew 26:17-28

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Nope Jesus is our Passover its all about Him and available to all people, Jews and Gentiles alike. He is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world. John 1:29 cf 1 Corinthians 5:7

Sorry, Jesus is the passover lamb according to ot scripture typology. For instance, when He sacrificed Himself as the Great High Priest, Aaron was a Type, who did Aaron sacrifice for before the propitiation Mercy Seat ?

 

[civic]

Sorry, Jesus is the passover lamb according to ot scripture typology. For instance, when He sacrificed Himself as the Great High Priest, Aaron was a Type, who did Aaron sacrifice for before the propitiation Mercy Seat ?

nope Jesus and Paul both say He is our Passover.

you are in deep De Nile.

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

He is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world. John 1:29 cf 1 Corinthians 5:7

World there means the scope of the chosen people, they are no longer confined to one geographical location, israel. Also everyones sin hasnt been taken away.

 

[brightfame52]

nope Jesus and Paul both say He is our Passover.

you are in deep De Nile.

Paul in 1 Cor 5 was writing to a called chosen people, not all mankind 1 Cor 1:24-28


24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

He was writing specifically to the Church of God 1 Cor 1

Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

In the OT Israel was the Church of God, a type Acts 7 38

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us

It was this Church in the wilderness that the passover lamb was provided for, them only !

 

[brightfame52]

June 10​

Isaiah 53:8​

Day 162​

‘For the transgression of my people was he stricken’​

Read Isaiah 53:1-12​

Without question these words teach us that the Lord Jesus Christ died for and redeemed a particular people. It gives me no particular pleasure to tell people that there are some in this world for whom Christ did not die, but I must insist upon it. If I told you that Christ died for all men alike, in an effort to redeem all men, the implication of my doctrine would be that salvation is determined not by what Christ has done for men, but by what men do for themselves. And that is totally contrary to the plainest statements of Holy Scripture (Rom. 9: 16). It does give me great pleasure to tell sinners, as the Word of God plainly asserts, that Christ Jesus died for some perishing sinners, and all of those for whom he died will be saved by the merits of his sin-atoning sacrifice.
The Word of God plainly teaches that our Lord Jesus Christ died as a Substitute in the place of some of Adam’s fallen race, but not all. Christ himself said, ‘I am the good Shepherd: the good Shepherd giveth his life for the sheep... I lay down my life for the sheep.’ Then he turned to some who were in the crowd, and said, ‘Ye are not of my sheep’ John 10: 11, 15, 26).
Christ died to make propitiation for our sins, to satisfy the justice of God for his people, so that God might be just and the justifier of all who believe (Rom. 3:24-26). Because God is just, we know that he cannot punish sin twice, once in the sinner’s Substitute and again in the sinner himself. If God punished my sin in Christ, he cannot punish sin in me too. That would not be just and equitable. Belief in God’s justice and righteousness will not allow us to accept the notion that Christ died for any who ultimately perish under the wrath of God. That would be a travesty of justice. There would be a holiday in hell; Satan and the demons would rejoice and mock the Son of God for ever, if it should ever come to pass that one for whom Christ died and whom he tried to save perished in spite of his redemptive work. The fiends of hell will never have such a holiday. Every soul for whom Christ died will be with him in glory. He will see to it!​

http://www.donfortner.com/html_firm/Grace For Today.htm​

 

[brightfame52]

The key to understanding the Gospel that Paul preached, and Limited atonement, meaning that even though the proclamation of the Gospel isn't limited in its scope, for it should be preached to all the world, over the the entire globe, yet the atonement is limited to whom its beneficiaries are for, its only for a foreknown elect people. It was pictured and typed in Gods chosen earthly national people Israel, and when it came to the redemptive things of God, it was only for Israel, and not the other estranged peoples of the earth. so they had a high priest for the benefit of the people Heb 2 16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

And so it must be understood, that when Paul preached that Christ died for OUR SINS He died as a Faith High Priest, and it was to make reconciliation for the sins of a very specific people. The People in Vs 17 in the greek has the definite article

ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ

Also sins has the definite article, the sins of a definite, particular people and for their particular sins.

Thats who Paul means in 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Now did Christ die according to scripture as the Merciful and Faithful High Priest of the people ?

 

[brightfame52]

Heb 2 16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

His Death was limited to being made like unto His Brethren, and to them become a merciful faithful High Priest in the things pertaining to God, like Salvation, Eternal Redemption,

And His brethren are not ethnic physical jews per se, but those whom God foreknew to be conformed into His image Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.