The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Your misrepresentation, often times purposeful in my view, of other peoples posts is legendary Red. FreeInChrist is certainly wise to take heed and beware of your religious philosophy.
There are some who are interested in what God actually teaches in His Inspired Word. You shouldn't demean or try to discredit those who believe in the Word of God enough to actually seek Him.
Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God "must believe" that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them "that diligently seek him".
Paul teaches the same;
Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
And Peter the same;
2 Pet. 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, "without spot, and blameless."
Just because your religion won't allow you to believe these things, doesn't mean they are not true.
The serpent in the garden gave the same sermon to Eve, that if she "Yielded herself" a servant to obey God as instructed, that she would be cursed with ignorance and blindness. And the only way to be free from this curse, is to follow his voice, and turn away from God's Word. "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, "then" your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
I hope FreeInChrist continues to fight against the powers of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience, and that she places her trust in Christ and the Holy Scriptures that can be trusted "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man/woman of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Of course if she believed all that is written in Scriptures, she would become your enemy and you would have to continue to demean, discourage and ridicule her as you do all others that believe what is actually written.
Perhaps even you Red, might some day climb down off your lofty perch and humble yourself to the Christ of the Bible. It is my sincere wish that you would. But it's a voluntary humility and such a philosophy is anathema to Calvinism.
Your preaching notwithstanding, "Little children, let "no man" deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as "he is righteous".
brightfame52
Active Member
Agree
Correct saved from error and false views about being in a right relationship with God. Acts 26:18
18 to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light [of the gospel]
, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Yeah I fought against particular atonement for a long time even though I believed Unconditional Election, i was inconsistent, I was what is called a 4 pointer lol, but God prevailed in mind with death of deaths by John Owen, this was back in the early to Mid 80s
@brightfame52
I am saying this because..... the very reason why any who are on forums and laboring to convert NOT unbelieving sinners to Christ, but believers to the truth, so that they can be more perfectly conform to the word of God. Yet @FreeInChrist cannot see this truth taught in the scriptures, and truly mocks it. Yet it is said of Paul:
Acts 17:2 ~ “And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,”
Paul went where believers were to attempt to convert them more perfectly, some he did, many he did not.
"but God prevailed in mind with death of deaths by John Owen, this was back in the early to Mid 80s" ~John Owen wrote
Cannot be refuted/answer by anyone!
I was thinking this morning that @FreeInChrist and others, are like Democrats who are fighting against voter ID cards, yet themselves must show their ID as a member of the House, or Senate before they can cast their vote on particular bill. The inconsistency in their positions on issues, is well noted. Truly is the saying true of them: "The emperor has no clothes"!
I am saying this because..... the very reason why any who are on forums and laboring to convert NOT unbelieving sinners to Christ, but believers to the truth, so that they can be more perfectly conform to the word of God. Yet @FreeInChrist cannot see this truth taught in the scriptures, and truly mocks it. Yet it is said of Paul:
Acts 17:2 ~ “And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,”
Paul went where believers were to attempt to convert them more perfectly, some he did, many he did not.
"but God prevailed in mind with death of deaths by John Owen, this was back in the early to Mid 80s" ~John Owen wrote
Cannot be refuted/answer by anyone!
@Studyman
He used subtly to deceive her, just as he is doing today! He's laboring to convince folks that they have the power within them to please God without first being born of God. Men like you have believed his lies.
1st Corinthians 1:30,31 ~ “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”
If anyone looks to their own works as the means of being accepted unto God, then that person is a proud man, and seeks to glory in what he is doing to please God, and to be accpeted with him. Where do you stand, sir?
You are saying this because of what? My religion that I believe in and which I stand upon, rejoices to see others who practice this. I'm not condemning @FreeInChrist for this , that is not my point of disagreement with her. I would never judge her heart on such things, God forbid.
Really?
Genesis 3:5
“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”He used subtly to deceive her, just as he is doing today! He's laboring to convince folks that they have the power within them to please God without first being born of God. Men like you have believed his lies.
Have you heard me defend Calvinism? No you have not, you are using a fallacy to deter others from seriously consider what I'm saying concerning having a gospel based on works and not pure and free grace. Some of the most humble folks I personally have ever read behind and have listened to, were men of a very humble spirit, and would never glory in their own works, but glory solely in what Christ has done for them.
1st Corinthians 1:30,31 ~ “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.”
If anyone looks to their own works as the means of being accepted unto God, then that person is a proud man, and seeks to glory in what he is doing to please God, and to be accpeted with him. Where do you stand, sir?
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes even if they make faith a condition as the means of being accepted unto God, seeks to glory in what they did or possess inwardly that pleases God. Faith is given by God so the saved person can believe in Christ who saved them by Grace.
@brightfame52
By first (by the new birth) creating within us a new man after the image of Jesus Christ, which man (the new man) has the power to believe, hear, see, and repent, and all other spiritual deeds one can think of. I'am not speaking of a physical image, for that means nothing, and neither do we know that image, regardless of all of the feminine pictures vain men. void of the Spirit of God have came up with, but the spiritual image, with is after God's image of spiritual knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and righteousness, etc., which image the first Adam lost for us.
But, what do men like @Studyman know of this? His posts shows us what he knows...nothing.
Yes, given in the sense that is recorded in Philippians 1:29:
Philippians 1:29
“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”By first (by the new birth) creating within us a new man after the image of Jesus Christ, which man (the new man) has the power to believe, hear, see, and repent, and all other spiritual deeds one can think of. I'am not speaking of a physical image, for that means nothing, and neither do we know that image, regardless of all of the feminine pictures vain men. void of the Spirit of God have came up with, but the spiritual image, with is after God's image of spiritual knowledge, understanding, wisdom, and righteousness, etc., which image the first Adam lost for us.
Ephesians 4:24
“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”But, what do men like @Studyman know of this? His posts shows us what he knows...nothing.
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brightfame52
Active Member
Yes these blessings are given via the new birth. For instance when its said Christ gives repentance Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
That repentance is given when He quickens them to Spiritual life by His Spirit. Repentance here is the evidence of new life.
1 Pet 1:3
. 3 ;Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
Begotten us again is the greek anagennaĹŤ:
- to produce again, be born again, born anew
- metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
Thats what repentance is, metanoia:
- a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
Of course not Red, you are as pure as the driven snow. And telling her she has made wickedness her partner, judging the heart of Synergy and me, well that's perfectly fine in your adopted religion. "do as I say, not as I do", the Red baker theme.
I don't know how you can look right at the verse, and not see what it says.
"For God doth know that "in the day ye eat thereof" (choose disobedience over obedience), "then" your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, "knowing" good and evil.
In other words, as long as she chooses to "Yield herself" to God's Instruction in righteousness, she will remain blind and ignorant. To "SEE", according to the prince of this world, she must turn against God's Laws, Commandments and Judgments, and follow another voice, any other voice, it doesn't matter, in the world God placed her in, like yours.
FreeInChrist is wise to "Take Heed" of the preaching of "many" who come in Christ's Name, in my view.
Good for her.
I've seen your posts promoting it. I have only ever seen you defend and justify yourself.
What is actually taught in Scriptures is this, "For by grace are ye saved through faith". You missed an important part of Paul's message, as is your custom. Faith without "works" is dead. There is no Faith without Works. Faith in God without obedience to God is not Faith at all. This is why I posted the Hebrews verse.
Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder "of them that diligently seek him". This diligent seeking, is a work of faith. You don't teach this at all. You promote a "workless Faith", like those children in Duet. 32.
If FreeInChrist is working to discern your philosophy, "Salvation by Grace, through "workless faith"", I think that is a worthwhile study. I did it myself, so I know what she will find if she diligently seeks God's Truth. (And isn't swayed by yours)
Good for her.
Yes, Red. I know what you mean. Here is a perfect example of a man, who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, glorifying himself, not Christ.
Remember preacher, according to the Christ "of the Bible", men are judged by their own works, not the works of those you judge as wicked.
At least this is what the Scriptures teach.
That is good advice Red, you should try it yourself.
Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God (Not man) hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them.
And where can a man or woman find these "Works" that God created for His people to walk in? If you ask Paul, here is what he says.
2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, (Law and Prophets) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which "is in Christ Jesus."
His Faith was most certainly not a "Workless Faith".
16 All scripture is given by inspiration "of God", and is profitable (Trustworthy) for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, "for instruction in righteousness:" 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If FreeInChrist is Seeking "for glory and honour and immortality", as Paul teaches, and she is seeking such through the Faith that was in Christ Jesus, which is not a "workless faith", Paul says she will find what is needed, or as Jesus Promised, " and all these things shall be added unto you."
Just like my brother David, inspired by the Spirit of the Christ "of the Bible" to write down for my admonition.
Psalms 119: 1ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. 4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments. 7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments. 8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly. 9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. 10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. 12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes. 13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth. 14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches. 15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways. 16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. 17 GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word. 18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law. 19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me. 20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
It is clear that David wasn't "looking to his own works" to Glorify God. He was Seeking the "Good Works" that God before ordained that he should walk in them. And he pressed toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God, that was in Christ Jesus, just as Paul taught both Jew and Gentile.
He was thankful for what God had done for him. If FreeInChrist and Synergy are expressing gratefulness to God for the "works" HE created that they should walk in them, why would you call that evil, and wicked? Why would you work to turn them away from the Word of God that became flesh. I know why and so do you. Don't turn away from the little voice that tells you Red.
You should climb down off your high horse and walk a mile in David's shoes. I guarantee you that your judgments against him as a "proud man", would vanish. But that would mean you would have to admit error, and become humble yourself. I don't know, after reading your posts for a decade, if you Love God enough to actually honor Him with more than your lips.
But it is my earnest desire that you might endeavor to do so.
brightfame52
Active Member
So then in essence you are saying there is no salvation without your works. Thats apostacy from the Faith friend.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@Red Baker, @brightfame52, @Studyman
Red — thank you for giving me time with my family.
Friends, since I was mentioned in posts to you yesterday (including two newer posts from Red that I had not yet responded to), I will respond to all of that here in one reply.
Let me clarify once—carefully and plainly—what I am, and am not, saying, because much of the response to me has been aimed at positions I have explicitly denied.
I have never argued that faith is meritorious.
I have never argued that the flesh produces faith apart from the Spirit.
I have never argued that regeneration is earned, conditioned upon, or caused by human effort.
The real disagreement here is not whether faith is Spirit-enabled. We agree that it is.
The disagreement is whether Scripture presents faith as the God-ordained means by which God brings sinners to salvation, or merely as a post-regeneration diagnostic limited only to those already alive.
That distinction matters, because Paul’s argument depends on it.
In Romans 1:16, Paul is explaining why he openly preaches the gospel: because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. The text does not say the gospel becomes powerful only after regeneration; it identifies the gospel itself as God’s saving instrument. To reverse that order collapses Paul’s stated purpose for preaching.
Romans 1–3 is addressed to a mixed audience—Jews and Gentiles alike—under sin. While the letter is written to the saints in Rome, Paul unmistakably reasons about unbelief, guilt, accountability, and justification before God. Scripture routinely addresses believers while speaking to and about the unregenerate. Audience designation does not restrict the scope of Paul’s argument.
When Paul says in Romans 1:17 that righteousness is revealed “from faith to faith,” he is not describing a transfer of truth between already-regenerate people. He later explains this very principle in Romans 4 by appealing to Abraham—who believed God while ungodly. Faith is presented there not as a mere fruit of prior life, but as the means through which justification is received.
Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul does not say the gospel is foolishness only until regeneration occurs. He says it is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The same preached message divides hearers; it does not wait for regeneration before functioning as God’s saving power.
Yes, Scripture teaches that the natural man cannot please God (Rom. 8:7–8). That truth does not negate the biblical teaching that faith comes by hearing, nor does it require redefining every call to believe as something addressed only to the already regenerate. Scripture holds both together without contradiction.
I also want to be clear about something else: disagreeing on these points does not place someone “under a curse,” aligned with pride, or echoing the serpent. Those kinds of charges do not clarify doctrine; they obscure it. The issue before us is exegetical, not personal.
If faith is only a post-regeneration evidence and never the God-appointed means by which sinners are brought to salvation, then Paul’s missionary labors, his reasoning with unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and his insistence that the gospel confronts unbelief become difficult to explain on Paul’s own terms.
My appeal is simple: let Paul’s argument stand as he presents it. Let Scripture define the relationship between gospel, faith, and salvation, rather than forcing every text into a single theological category.
That is all I am contending for—and nothing more.
And one final comment, Red: I trust by now you can see that I am not angry, and I am not running away from these issues. I am simply asking that they be handled from the text itself.
Red — thank you for giving me time with my family.
Friends, since I was mentioned in posts to you yesterday (including two newer posts from Red that I had not yet responded to), I will respond to all of that here in one reply.
Let me clarify once—carefully and plainly—what I am, and am not, saying, because much of the response to me has been aimed at positions I have explicitly denied.
I have never argued that faith is meritorious.
I have never argued that the flesh produces faith apart from the Spirit.
I have never argued that regeneration is earned, conditioned upon, or caused by human effort.
The real disagreement here is not whether faith is Spirit-enabled. We agree that it is.
The disagreement is whether Scripture presents faith as the God-ordained means by which God brings sinners to salvation, or merely as a post-regeneration diagnostic limited only to those already alive.
That distinction matters, because Paul’s argument depends on it.
In Romans 1:16, Paul is explaining why he openly preaches the gospel: because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. The text does not say the gospel becomes powerful only after regeneration; it identifies the gospel itself as God’s saving instrument. To reverse that order collapses Paul’s stated purpose for preaching.
Romans 1–3 is addressed to a mixed audience—Jews and Gentiles alike—under sin. While the letter is written to the saints in Rome, Paul unmistakably reasons about unbelief, guilt, accountability, and justification before God. Scripture routinely addresses believers while speaking to and about the unregenerate. Audience designation does not restrict the scope of Paul’s argument.
When Paul says in Romans 1:17 that righteousness is revealed “from faith to faith,” he is not describing a transfer of truth between already-regenerate people. He later explains this very principle in Romans 4 by appealing to Abraham—who believed God while ungodly. Faith is presented there not as a mere fruit of prior life, but as the means through which justification is received.
Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul does not say the gospel is foolishness only until regeneration occurs. He says it is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The same preached message divides hearers; it does not wait for regeneration before functioning as God’s saving power.
Yes, Scripture teaches that the natural man cannot please God (Rom. 8:7–8). That truth does not negate the biblical teaching that faith comes by hearing, nor does it require redefining every call to believe as something addressed only to the already regenerate. Scripture holds both together without contradiction.
I also want to be clear about something else: disagreeing on these points does not place someone “under a curse,” aligned with pride, or echoing the serpent. Those kinds of charges do not clarify doctrine; they obscure it. The issue before us is exegetical, not personal.
If faith is only a post-regeneration evidence and never the God-appointed means by which sinners are brought to salvation, then Paul’s missionary labors, his reasoning with unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and his insistence that the gospel confronts unbelief become difficult to explain on Paul’s own terms.
My appeal is simple: let Paul’s argument stand as he presents it. Let Scripture define the relationship between gospel, faith, and salvation, rather than forcing every text into a single theological category.
That is all I am contending for—and nothing more.
And one final comment, Red: I trust by now you can see that I am not angry, and I am not running away from these issues. I am simply asking that they be handled from the text itself.
brightfame52
Active Member
You may not literally say that in sound bite, but whenever anyone makes it [faith] a condition you must have or an act of believing you must do in order to make things right with God, to justify you from your sins, it automatically defaults to a meritorious work or a meritorious quality in you that caused God to Justify you from your sins.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I want you to post the scriptures that say it is the Gospel. I dont want to read any threads on the subject. I want the actual words from the Holy Bible that says this is the Gospel
FreeInChrist
Active Member
We all know what a carnal mind is. As @civic said... we are in the flesh until we die. But being in the flesh does not demand our minds go the way of what the flesh wants... it merely holds our souls and spirits together so we don't fall apart. When we die and our spirits are reunited with God who gave them and once Jesus returns... we all get our new glorified bodies because the rotten flesh that has housed us cannot ever see life again.
BTW. If you are alive... you got flesh that is rotten and need controlled in every aspect of your life. Every.
civic
Active Member
Amen the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. We can walk in the spirit while we live in this flesh. We can sow to the spirit and not the flesh, carnal self. We set our minds on the things above not the things of this world. We are renewed in the spirit of our minds.
Everything above comes straight from the bible, I just didn't quote the verses.
They are not my words but the very words of God written by the Apostles.
As the famous movie quote goes: you ( not you but some people) can't handle the truth.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Not directed to me but are you going to be upset if we both are greeted with open arms?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52
I was thinking this morning that @FreeInChrist and others, are like Democrats who are fighting against voter ID cards, yet themselves must show their ID as a member of the House, or Senate before they can cast their vote on particular bill. The inconsistency in their positions on issues, is well noted. Truly is the saying true of them: "The emperor has no clothes"!
I am saying this because..... the very reason why any who are on forums and laboring to convert NOT unbelieving sinners to Christ, but believers to the truth, so that they can be more perfectly conform to the word of God. Yet @FreeInChrist cannot see this truth taught in the scriptures, and truly mocks it. Yet it is said of Paul:
Acts 17:2 ~ “And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,”
Paul went where believers were to attempt to convert them more perfectly, some he did, many he did not.
"but God prevailed in mind with death of deaths by John Owen, this was back in the early to Mid 80s" ~John Owen wrote
Cannot be refuted/answer by anyone!
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Sorry Red.... This one I failed to address in my reply post to you but it truly begs for a comment from me since I am named here.
I have known unbelievers on these forums... even GC had an agnostic, and there have been doubters here... so who are you really preaching to? Just to conform other believers to what you perceive as the truth because it is a certainty the both of us can ably prove our sides by scripture.
But as I recall I never once made a snide or degrading comment to you... Such as you Telling me I was becoming more Catholic... when I actually would prefer them over most Baptists I have known. Or as you wrote..." I was thinking this morning that @FreeInChrist and others, are like Democrats who are fighting against voter ID cards, yet themselves must show their ID as a member of the House, or Senate before they can cast their vote on particular bill. The inconsistency in their positions on issues, is well noted.... But suppose I have changed parties? I would thank you.
Over the years you have gone after me, swinging low and you were right that I used to cut and run because I was..
was being an operative word... a lady. But one of our mutual friends from another forum told me in a PM once I had to Grow my _____ if I were to survive being on a forum or I would be eaten alive... And it took a while but here I am all grown up.
You dont scare me anymore, you can make all the digs you want at me subtly or straight on, and I AM NOT GOING ANYWHERE.. and I will meet you on any point you want to make that we are at odds with and I, for one, will do our debating with calmness and assurance because I do have the Holy Spirit guiding me in quite a lot of what I say.... and SCRIPTURE proves me right.
AND I AM NOT WRONG.
So if you have a reply to my reply to you I did this morning I welcome it. But I wont stay silent when you make back comments about me as you have done.
Blessings
brightfame52
Active Member
I have a thread on it
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay then until one isnt in the flesh anymore this is their mind towards God Rom 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
