The Incarnation disproves Total Depravity and sin nature

If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts...

Then give your faith to your children.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

It worked for Lois. It worked for Eunice.

It has always worked "faith to faith"......

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
 
PART 1:
I kind of agree with you in one way, and yet, I do not agree with you. I agree with you in the sense that if human flesh is corrupted, and Jesus put on human flesh, then Jesus put on fallen corrupted sinful flesh.

Then when added with verses like Jn 1:14; 6:51, it is clear Jesus did not take on sinful flesh.

These bodies are corrupted. They ate the fruit that went into their bodies, they (both body and person) have the knowledge of both good and evil. Christ's resurrection brought new life to our minds by the spirit, now we just have to put off these bodies, for new spiritual ones, uncorrupted.

In one sense we are sinners' from birth, cause we were in a no win situation. It's not that we actually sin at birth, but because of our fleshes/body's desires, and also even laws, we will sin, for we are powerless against the sinful flesh/body, and the law is powerless against sin. That's why it is imperative to live and walk in the spirit.

Can you add a verse or two to your sources for your conclusion?

Psa 103:14 For he knows our frame: remember that we are dust.
Psa 103:15 As for man, his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so shall he flourish.
Psa 103:16 For the wind passes over it, and it shall not be; and it shall know its place no more.

Adam was never complete in his original form. He was a work in progress......

Adam didn't change bodily when he supposedly "fell". He lost access to Eternal Life. He never was given Eternal Life when he was created. The value of Eternal Life must be earned. It is only earned through the efforts of Jesus Christ for humanity.
 
Can you add a verse or two to your sources for your conclusion?
I put a about a chapter's worth from Romans 6:12; 7:15 - 8:5 that dealt with the very issue!

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh [following the desires of one's flesh will lead one astray], carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Sounds like a no win situation to me, unless mercy and grace enters the scene.

Isa_48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called [well certainly, this would be at least one reason why God knew..] a transgressor from the womb.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51 is speaking of David, the son of Jesse. And this is all I know of David's mother from scripture - Psa 86:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me; give your strength to your servant [David is defiantly God's servant], and save the son of your maidservant [David says his mother was also God's servant]. And if one were to say David was speaking of his mother's sin, for David to, somehow, put blame on his mother for his adulty, is not the way of David. No, David confessed his sin, starting from the very beginning of the chapter. What David is saying, I sinned, I did evil, it was my fault, but do remember I was born in this sinful body which tempts me, in a sinful world which tempts me, I took my eyes off you, and went astray, I do not want to sin against you, have mercy, and may we return to our fellowship. - Basically, to mention a few.

There are chemical reactions, or things, the body does, which from the first look of the eyes, can pushes us to desire others we find attractive, even if it is forbidden (both good and evil). It don't care, it's greedy, if we allow that into our mind we break our conscious and fall, or stumble. Which conscious was cleaned up by the spirit when we first believed, and sometimes may need to be washed, or renewed again.
Psa 103:14 For he knows our frame: remember that we are dust.
Psa 103:15 As for man, his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so shall he flourish.
Psa 103:16 For the wind passes over it, and it shall not be; and it shall know its place no more.
I do not know why you posted these?
My conclusion was I agree with Paul, our flesh has desires (both good and evil), and wars against our minds.
Adam was never complete in his original form. He was a work in progress......
Adam didn't change bodily when he supposedly "fell". He lost access to Eternal Life. He never was given Eternal Life when he was created. The value of Eternal Life must be earned. It is only earned through the efforts of Jesus Christ for humanity.
I do not know what all that has to do with me, I did not say Adam was created with an eternal body?!
My conclusion was I agree with Paul, our flesh has desires (both good and evil), and wars against our minds.

But certainly not eating from the tree of life would bring change to the body.
 
Then give your faith to your children.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

It worked for Lois. It worked for Eunice.

It has always worked "faith to faith"......

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
Your post is definitely food for thought. It makes me think of encouragement.

Romans 1:12
that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Encouraging-One-Another
 
Toral depravity or spiritual inability is asserted in that by nature, even the elect along with all of mankind are in a continual condition of disobedience

Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In unregenerate condition the flesh is under the powerful control of a spirit working disobedience

Its not until Jesus by His Spirit regenerates us that this powerful spirit of disobedience is dispel Lk 11:21-22


21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
 
Then there is this:

Common grace​

Common grace is a theological concept in Protestant Christianity that refers to the undeserved goodness of God towards all people, regardless of their election or salvation. It is a sovereign act of God’s grace that is bestowed upon all humanity, not just the elect.
Scriptural Justification
The Bible provides several passages that describe common grace, including:
  • Psalm 145:9, which says, “He will fulfill the desires of all who fear him, he also will hear their cry and save them.”
  • Acts 14:17, which states, “Yet he left not himself without witness, in that he did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling your hearts with food and gladness.”
  • Genesis 6:3, which says, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
Characteristics of Common Grace
Common grace is characterized by:
  • Undeserved goodness: God’s grace is not earned or deserved, but is a free gift to all people.
  • Universal: Common grace is extended to all humanity, regardless of their election or salvation.
  • Non-redemptive: Common grace is not intended to save people from their sins, but rather to provide general blessings and benefits.
  • Restraint of sin: Common grace also includes the restraint of sin and evil, allowing people to live in a relatively orderly and peaceful society.
Examples of Common Grace
Some examples of common grace include:
  • The provision of rain and fruitful seasons (Acts 14:17)
  • The restraint of sin and evil (Genesis 6:3)
  • The giving of natural talents and abilities (Psalm 139:13-16)
  • The establishment of social structures and institutions (Matthew 5:45)
Conclusion
Common grace is a vital aspect of God’s character and is evident in the blessings and benefits that He bestows upon all people. It is a reminder that God is a gracious and loving God, who desires to bless and care for all humanity, regardless of their spiritual state.

From NoStupidQuestions.com
 
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51 is speaking of David, the son of Jesse. And this is all I know of David's mother from scripture - Psa 86:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me; give your strength to your servant [David is defiantly God's servant], and save the son of your maidservant [David says his mother was also God's servant]. And if one were to say David was speaking of his mother's sin, for David to, somehow, put blame on his mother for his adulty, is not the way of David. No, David confessed his sin, starting from the very beginning of the chapter. What David is saying, I sinned, I did evil, it was my fault, but do remember I was born in this sinful body which tempts me, in a sinful world which tempts me, I took my eyes off you, and went astray, I do not want to sin against you, have mercy, and may we return to our fellowship. - Basically, to mention a few.

Adam sinned right? Adam had a body capable of sin. The proof is in the fact that Adam sinned. God fashioned a body that was capable of sin. To try and turn this into some nonsense concerning "total depravity" and "total inability" is ridiculous. David sinned but there were times David didn't sin. Same with every natural man. Same with every natural body. Even Adam's body from the beginning.

There are chemical reactions, or things, the body does, which from the first look of the eyes, can pushes us to desire others we find attractive, even if it is forbidden (both good and evil). It don't care, it's greedy, if we allow that into our mind we break our conscious and fall, or stumble. Which conscious was cleaned up by the spirit when we first believed, and sometimes may need to be washed, or renewed again.

There are chemical reactions, or things, the body does like "Praise the Lord" that pleases God. The very breath of God that formed Adam was given to "Praise the Lord"....

Psa 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Psa 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Psa 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

I do not know why you posted these?
My conclusion was I agree with Paul, our flesh has desires (both good and evil), and wars against our minds.

I agree with you but I disagree with how you establish this fact. Your construct is weak and problematic. It flavors other conclusions you're drawing. A little leaven does what?

But certainly not eating from the tree of life would bring change to the body.

It certainly has. This body we have is different than what Adam had. It is weaker. It has gradually become filled with disease and inabilities that Adam didn't have. This is a good conversation to have. Few will even get this far in the conversation.

You're perspective is drawn from what you see as the end result. You've worked your way backwards to confirm your bias. Start at the beginning and work you way out. You will see this differently.

Thanks
 
Adam sinned right? Adam had a body capable of sin. The proof is in the fact that Adam sinned. God fashioned a body that was capable of sin. To try and turn this into some nonsense concerning "total depravity" and "total inability" is ridiculous. David sinned but there were times David didn't sin. Same with every natural man. Same with every natural body. Even Adam's body from the beginning.
Just to be clear, I am not a Calvinist, but this does not mean everything they teach is error.

I did not say our body is the only thing that tempts us. In fact I also said (which you put in quotes and responded to in your posts #83, #88), the world also tempts us, and then there's laws. Which is why I said, we are in a no win situation.

From what our bodies desire, and the ways of the world we learn from birth, and temptations by others, from a lying spirit in 400 prophets, to many demons indwelling in one being, which required someone else to cast them out. So, our bodies assault our minds, and the world assaults our minds, and the spiritual realm assaults our minds, and laws only make it worse. No win situation!

I never said people can never do good. What I said, is people have the knowledge of both good and evil. You do understand behind every good, or bad act there is motive. People can, and do, use good for bad, even in little subtle ways, and mostly toward their own family members, close ones.
There are chemical reactions, or things, the body does like "Praise the Lord" that pleases God. The very breath of God that formed Adam was given to "Praise the Lord"....
Psa 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Psa 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Psa 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
I don't think this has anything to do with me?
I agree with you but I disagree with how you establish this fact. Your construct is weak and problematic. It flavors other conclusions you're drawing. A little leaven does what?
So far you have not shown that. So far you've gotten me all wrong.
It certainly has. This body we have is different than what Adam had. It is weaker. It has gradually become filled with disease and inabilities that Adam didn't have. This is a good conversation to have. Few will even get this far in the conversation.
You're perspective is drawn from what you see as the end result. You've worked your way backwards to confirm your bias. Start at the beginning and work you way out. You will see this differently.
Thanks
But you have made no point that would affect me, or that had anything to do with me, or to do with how I believe.

I don't think you are quite getting what I am saying. Satan was in heaven made perfect, with a perfect body, yet, he sinned, but now a slave to it, and now crawls on his belly, or at least the serpent does. Where does it say Adam's body tempted Him? It doesn't, but now it does tempt us, working against us.
A pregnant mother does "illegal Meds," and passes those cravings onto her child. The child did not take them, yet, is addicted to them from birth, and more in likely have a great struggle before them. They were put into that position, their bodies working against them, against their minds.
 
I never said people can never do good. What I said, is people have the knowledge of both good and evil. You do understand behind every good, or bad act there is motive. People can, and do, use good for bad, even in little subtle ways, and mostly toward their own family members, close ones.

That's a very important point. It's why good deeds with the wrong motive will be burned up, yielding no reward. And it's why evil people can do some "good" things.
 
Jesus did not think that all men were utterly indisposed, totally depraved, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil. He could see some good in people that was still pure and some faculties untouched by sin. He cried over Jerusalem, as he must have seen some good in them. Luke 19:41-44

Jesus spoke of a man "in whom there is no deceit" John 1:47. He was Nathanael, a perfectly honest man, proving that human beings can have unspoiled faculties.
I agree(y)
 
That's a very important point. It's why good deeds with the wrong motive will be burned up, yielding no reward. And it's why evil people can do some "good" things.
May I also say this, so all is clear..

It's not with what one builds upon it, but "how" one builds upon it. Not with what doctrine (cause there can be no other doctrine), or some good, or evil one does to another (for this has to be confronted, especially within a church setting), but what they put into it, how they approach it, how wise they were in their ways, did they always do it willingly, it's got to do with those kind of things, the quality of their work, not the seed they are planting. This is why he writes "So let no one boast in men," and "that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another [one would not say these, if one was talking about doctrine, or evil, cause then one should be in favor of one doctrine over another, or a good minister over a evil minister, especially in a church setting]" because it's not about how well dressed, or how great and elegant with words, or flashy, someone is at sharing the word with us, but it's about the message, receiving growth from the truth of the Gospel. People were saying, Paul was not a great speaker, but he had knowledge. So, catering to style instead of the message, is simply catering to the fleshes desires.

So what profit is there in bosting of how great one speaker's presentation is over another speaker's, for their reward is for them only. What 1 Cor. 3 is referring to is someone who is building upon the right foundation of the doctrine of Christ. So, they are in the right doctrine of Christ, cause if they are not, then God will destroy them for destroying His temple, and there can be no other foundation (Paul is hinting back to Exod 12:15, 19). And evil ministers should never be tolerated in the church.

Let me also point this out..

Isa 63:8 For he said, “Surely they are my people, children who will not deal falsely.” And he became their Savior.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit [putting out the spirit "quenching the spirit"]; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them [and, it is written in Revelation 2 and 19, that Christ would come and fight against His own church(es)].

Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
..and..
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Here is an example of those words, to the churches..

Rev 2:9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer [so, this is not because they are wicked, and not considered God's children, that this has come upon them]. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested [so, God test us, and we need to learn to overcome them, to grow], and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life ["the one who endures to the end will be saved," for listen again..].
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches [so even in that, there is a lesson here for everyone]. The one who conquers [or overcomes, or victorious] will not be hurt by the second death [the second death is the final one. "the one who endures to the end will be saved," and "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father"].

These people are of the called, and saved, for He did not say turn and accept me as your lord and savior (for they have already done that, but God knows the secrets of a persons heart), but that they are not to deny Him, right up to the last second. They still have to endure ten more days to escape the second death, which is the person being cast into the lake of fire.

1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh [fleshes desires], so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1Jn_2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

Rom 16:17-18 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine [how many denominations, and different doctrines are there] that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
 
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